Snub

Ssaliss · February 2013

So. Normally I don't care one bit about people snubbing me (mostly because I can't think of a reason for people to do so, and if they want to ignore me, well... I'll just ignore them right back. Odds are I have no reason to speak to them anyway). However, recently I noticed that one of the people who own a shop in Glom has me snubbed, and with me being the Chancellor, well... it does complicate things a little. Is there a way around that problem that doesn't involve bypassing snub (which I know is very frowned upon, and for very good reason)? I'd rather like to be able to speak to the shop-owners about their shops, even if it only happens once in a blue moon.

Xenthos · February 2013

You know, I had not thought about that.

If I snub Ssaliss I will never have to pay shop taxes again!

Llandros · February 2013

Don't have anything to do with people who snub you but if you need to for official reasons then pass it up the line and then walk away.

Just let your org leader know and if he or she thinks it's worth mentioning then that person can address the situation.

Just an FYI, it could be from your market ads which are rather annoying. I've thought about snubbing you myself just to not hear them.

Lawliet · February 2013

Fairly sure that, by definition of what snub is for, anything that you could do would be in violation of snub. You might get away with an aide talking to them about something but otherwise I don't think so.

If they're in violation of Glom rules consistently all you could really do would be to remove the shop from them. That would motivate them to speak to you and try and sort it out.

Tacita · February 2013

Llandros said:

Don't have anything to do with people who snub you but if you need to for official reasons then pass it up the line and then walk away.

Just let your org leader know and if he or she thinks it's worth mentioning then that person can address the situation.

Is that not technically bypassing snub though? I mean I understand it's for a good reason, but...

I dunno, it's awkward and probably only answerable by an admin. Have you tried issuing yourself with the question, Ssaliss?

Shaddus · February 2013

Who would snub Ssaliss? He's awesome.

IMO, this person can snub you all they want, but if they can't deal with you and refuse to pay their taxes or don't have have their shop up to par, you have every right in the world to take their shop. Their snubbing you doesn't release them from the ramifications of the game; else, I'd snub people and they wouldn't be able to hit me in battle.

Ssaliss · February 2013

Tacita said:

I dunno, it's awkward and probably only answerable by an admin. Have you tried issuing yourself with the question, Ssaliss?

Not yet, no. Wanted to see if anyone else had a similar experience and if/how they solved it before issuing myself about it. Also, right now it's mostly academic; I have no immediate need to speak to them. And odds are the response I'd get would be "Just repossess the shop if they don't follow the rules". Sucks doing that without a warning though.

Llandros said:

Just an FYI, it could be from your market ads which are rather annoying. I've thought about snubbing you myself just to not hear them.

I only have my market ad every hour; I figured that was long enough apart to not be a bother to people. And it's not like anyone's complained about them either so far, so I hope people aren't annoyed enough about them to snub me because of it.

Llandros · February 2013

It's not the frequency, it's that you made an ad to advertise an ad without saying what any of it is about. I'd have to look up your ad about something that I would potentially not have any interest in to see if it was relevant to me = annoying

If it's org business let your org leader know. If they want to address it they can. If the leader doesn't want to address it then let it go. That way it's not snub avoidance since you are just bringing it to the attention of a third party and then walking away.

If person A has me snubbed and I see them break a rule and tell person B about it then that's not snub abuse.

Just don't try to directly interact with them or have people pass along messages. If it's city business then it's city business and doesn't matter who brings it up, as long as they are not themselves snubbed.

Xenthos · February 2013

I just need to snub Svorai as well then! No ability to pass official notifications without bypassing snub, and if you take my shop you are just being jerky jerkfaces taking IC action to get back at me for snubbing you. *issues*

* Note that the above is due to administrators semi-recently posting that disfavouring someone breaking city rules who has you snubbed could quite conceivably be issued and upheld.

Ssaliss · February 2013

Xenthos said:

I just need to snub Svorai as well then! No ability to pass official notifications without bypassing snub, and if you take my shop you are just being jerky jerkfaces taking IC action to get back at me for snubbing you. *issues* * Note that the above is due to administrators semi-recently posting that disfavouring someone breaking city rules who has you snubbed could quite conceivably be issued and upheld.

That's... uh, rather disturbing. As long as there's an actual reason for the disfavour, of course, but otherwise... yeah. It's silly if you're not held accountable for your actions just because you've snubbed someone.

Xenthos · February 2013

But you are bypassing snub by sending them a message in the disfavour log.

Naught, naughty.

Xenthos · February 2013

PS, if you can't tell, I would like a snub re-work. It has some pretty silly loopholes and oddities.

Did you know that if I snub you, you will not hear anything that I SAY? You will still see my emotes, cltells, and I believe my ctells, but not what I say.

So I can snub you and say all kinds of BS about you right in front of you to everyone gathered, and you will never know. Or be able to defend yourself. And if you get someone to start relaying text to you, well, snub avoidance. Especially if said someone is relaying your text back (because then you are having an illegal conversation).

Edit: And yes, I issued this for clarification; it is intended to work this way.

Neos · February 2013

Xenthos said:

PS, if you can't tell, I would like a snub re-work. It has some pretty silly loopholes and oddities. Did you know that if I snub you, you will not hear anything that I SAY? You will still see my emotes, cltells, and I believe my ctells, but not what I say. So I can snub you and say all kinds of BS about you right in front of you to everyone gathered, and you will never know. Or be able to defend yourself. And if you get someone to start relaying text to you, well, snub avoidance. Especially if said someone is relaying your text back (because then you are having an illegal conversation). Edit: And yes, I issued this for clarification; it is intended to work this way.

/snub Xenthos
/make report to nerf Xenthos
/do same to Shuyin

Xenthos · February 2013

Snub is entirely ignored when it comes to Envoys, as a note.

Cyndarin · February 2013

Message Svorai This ho bag needs to pay their shop taxes or I'm gonna take their crap.

Llandros · February 2013

Also, since there is no way to tell if someone has you snubbed before you interact with them and find out you can't, learning that someone has snubbed you could very well in itself be issuable.

Xenthos · February 2013

I should snub Eventru and then issue him every time he fires his "I am here!" message.

Raezon · February 2013

Snub should never be used as a means to evade IG consequences. Letting the city leader or your aides communicate any problems should be fine, so long as it's not 'forward this letter I wrote'. You are also free, generally, to exercise your duties as chancellor and retake or suspend the shop if they don't follow through with organizational rules. (I don't think this requires a custom message to them.) Just be sure that the admin won't be led to believe it is retaliatory in any way. If you want to be safe, you can let an aide or city leader do so as well. In any specific situation, though, you can issue me with your query if you want to be certain of no repercussions.

Edit: That is the price for writing long posts! @eventru

Eventru · February 2013

Edit: Raezon the sneaky.

Noooo!

My advice would be thus:

The only reason I can think you would need to communicate with them is a) their dues go unpaid or b) an org policy for shop keepers has changed and they need to be informed.

A secondary individual (aide, council member) can easily inform them of either of these without saying, "Ssaliss says you need to pay up or lose your shop". Easily, "Just so that you are aware, you are behind on your taxes and if dues aren't paid the commune/city will requisition your shop," resolves the situation without even bringing up snub abuse as a possibility.

Should it come to the point that they've snubbed their entire city's leadership, the ministers, the aides - then really, the onus is on them to adhere to policies that are always laid out clearly in a city help file or news board postings.

Snubbing does not absolve you of adhering to policies in a given organization.

That does not, however, give people a broad license to disfavour people for snubbing them, etc. In terms of punishment, the onus is on the leadership to avoid even the suggestion of being vindictive or retributive over being snubbed.

Ultimately the situation would have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, and if you have serious concern about a given instance, I'd advise you to issue yourself, explain the situation, and ask for guidance on how to proceed without being accused of abuse. I think when a situation reaches the point where someone has snubbed anyone who might possible disfavour or otherwise punish then in an organization and continues to blatantly break that organization's policies/laws and general cause trouble, the admin who handle those sort of issues won't be blind to that and will handle the situation appropriately.

Ultimately, I know people want black and white policies on it, but it's not a black and white issue. I doubt the admin who handle those issues want to corner themselves. When in doubt, issue me. Best advice I can give!

Ssaliss · February 2013

Good to know I can still go through the CLs without it automatically being snub abuse! I was never concerned about possibly having to take their shop away if they misbehave, it's just that I really don't want to do that without giving any kind of warning. Thanks for the answers and clarifications!

Neos · February 2013

Eventru said:

When in doubt, issue me. Best advice I can give!

Good to know.

Eventru · February 2013

Neos said:

Eventru said:

When in doubt, issue me. Best advice I can give!

Good to know.

Not issue me me, but ISSUE ME. Punk.

Xenthos · February 2013

Alternatively, consider adjusting snub to reduce such case-by-case things.

Some possible ideas include, but are not limited to:
1) For Pete's sake, if someone chooses to snub you, it should not magically stop you from hearing them say something in the same room; snub should be a one-way choice, and you are doing it to prevent harassment, not to "abuse" it.
2) Snubbing tends to be over-used; note the comments about people considering snubbing Ssaliss based entirely on market ads. I personally have been extremely tempted to snub Tully on any number of occasions (basically every time he shouts something).

This one is the trickier one. You want to allow people who are being harassed to opt out of it, but it is pretty absurd to consider shouts or market ads as harassment. I am not sure what the most fair solution is.

I do feel that encouraging snub to be used in cases of actual harassment greatly limits how much oversight is needed, versus snubbing because someone gave you a weird look. Otherwise, I can snub Svorai for having a bad hair day and make her run through hoops, with the threat of Administrative punishment if I feel she is unfairly targeting me for snubbing her. And no matter what is said, that is entirely subjective and a ruling could very easily go against her, which is most decidedly unpleasant from a player's perspective when said player didn't even do anything wrong.

Edit: The good old-fashioned rage-snub is also part of this.
1) Sojiro kills person.
2) Person swears at Sojiro.
3) Person snubs Sojiro.

I mean... what purpose does this serve, except to just cause headaches if / when person feels Sojiro is being mean and issues for snub avoidance? Meh.

Elanorwen · February 2013

There was a case when a certain GM of the Templars got snubbed by a certain member of the Templars while trying to stop said member of the Templars from antagonizing a friendly city leader. The person in question continued with his attitude and everything and received a fun guild disfavour that then lead to unsnub, several snide messages, another snub. All in all, snub should come with a longer cooldown after you just unsnubbed someone, and it should also not stop the person being snubbed from hearing what the person snubbing them is speaking. For all they know, said person could be making nasty comments about them right in front of their face and them having no way to defend themselves should such be happening.

Plenty of ways to abuse it. I'd say remove the two-way filter, make it one-way only... at least.

Eventru · February 2013

I don't think there's any interest in loosening the effects of snub nor interest in creating rules that tell people when they're allowed to use snub.

Sorry.

Xenthos · February 2013

Eventru said:
I don't think there's any interest in loosening the effects of snub.

Well, of course there's no interest; otherwise much of the thread wouldn't exist (like the entire fact that you can snub someone and then badmouth them right before their face in front of an entire crowd without them knowing being one of the silliest mechanics in the game).

Tully · February 2013

There are two ways to approach such a problem.

1) Increase the official rules to clarify the use of it. That can lead to problems with so-called "zero tolerance" policies, where the policy takes precedent over subjective judgement.

2) Leave it to administrator fiat. This can probably result in fairer judgement but is more work for them.

I'm pretty sure in a game where in-character interaction is pretty important, snub is a defense of "last resort". It definitely should not be used (IMO) to just filter out things that are occasionally annoying. What one person considered annoying another person considers entertaining. I would think if snub was being used between members in the same organization, there's probably a big problem there.

How many people are actively using snub, for instance? I've never encountered it--to be clear, when you try to speak to a snubbed person you get a message confirming the person has snubbed you, right?

Xenthos · February 2013

If you do SAY TO it fails, and both tells / messages indicate directly that it is so. If you do not try one of these things, however, you will not know that you were snubbed.

Ssaliss · February 2013

Tully said:

There are two ways to approach such a problem.

1) Increase the official rules to clarify the use of it. That can lead to problems with so-called "zero tolerance" policies, where the policy takes precedent over subjective judgement.

2) Leave it to administrator fiat. This can probably result in fairer judgement but is more work for them.

I'm pretty sure in a game where in-character interaction is pretty important, snub is a defense of "last resort". It definitely should not be used (IMO) to just filter out things that are occasionally annoying. What one person considered annoying another person considers entertaining. I would think if snub was being used between members in the same organization, there's probably a big problem there.

One would think that's how it's used, but... it just isn't. Snub is used as a glorified mute button; "You suck and since I'll get the last word in, it's true!" *snub*. I think I've heard of _one_ person using snub as it should be used, and a lot of people just using it because they're mad at someone.

How many people are actively using snub, for instance? I've never encountered it--to be clear, when you try to speak to a snubbed person you get a message confirming the person has snubbed you, right?

Yep. Something along the lines of "That person has chosen to ignore you". Same with messages.

EDIT: That's only directed communications though, yeah. Tells, messages, letters, etc.

Xenthos · February 2013

There are a couple of people who truly deserve to be snubbed. Unfortunately they tend to gather around a certain subset of the playerbase, and these players are perfectly justified in snubbing to stop the harassment and then issuing when the abusers switch to new characters. That is what snub is really intended to do, imo.

For every one of those, there are at least ten "rage snubs" though. It has become the "cool" thing to do I think; send a snippy tell and snub someone.

It is something that I, at least, find disturbing.

Ragniliff · February 2013

Xenthos said:

I don't think there's any interest in loosening the effects of snub.
Well, of course there's no interest; otherwise much of the thread wouldn't exist (like the entire fact that you can snub someone and then badmouth them right before their face in front of an entire crowd without them knowing being one of the silliest mechanics in the game).

I think this sort of behaviour should be issuable (and possibly shrubbable). That would fix things pretty quick.

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