I'd like an alert that you've been snubbed, so that you know ahead of time, before you try to communicate with someone, or before you do something that could be construed as snub avoidance. If you're trying to talk to someone or get their attention over a channel and they have you snubbed, it could easily lead to a disfavor that could be seen as going around snub.
Also, I agree. Snubbing someone shouldn't suddenly 'stealth' things YOU (the snub-ing person) said to the person you snubbed.
You won't even be able to find out about it to issue unless: 1) Someone else there asks you why you are not responding, and 2) Quotes them to you.
Under those circumstances I would likely assume that you had snubbed them instead, and thus passing their words on to you would be a Bad Thing. But as a third party thereis no way to tell, either, and it can't be found out without involving a third party whois likely to be reluctant (with good reason)
We obviously need a SNUBBEDBY action to find out who has snubbed us.
I'd also like to ask that Snub require a reason.
SNUB EVENTRU because he makes a lot of noise. SNUB XENTHOS because I don't like him. SNUB SHADDUS because I feel he is being too spammy with his market ads.
Edit: I don't want the person I'm snubbing to see this: I want the admin to be able to see it, so if it comes up in an issue, the admin can see why I snubbed them in the first place.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
There are people in this game who overabuse the snub command, snubbing entire orgs for example because you're not on friendly terms with them, people you've never met and have no interactions with other than you fought that one time.
Personally snub for me is something you use to avoid a select small number of troublemakers where there is no alternative means of working things out. It should be a last resort, not a prevention or a bubble to wrap yourself up in.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
In my opinion, it goes a little far if a person has to tiptoe around even a potential snubber as seems to be the case. Someone can snub me just because they don't like the weather outside, and then the 'onus' is on me to not even evoke the appearance of what might be a negative/vindictive reaction to that snub in whatever I do with respect to that person in the game?
People who snub others often just want to rant and have the last word.
In my opinion, it goes a little far if a person has to tiptoe around even a potential snubber as seems to be the case. Someone can snub me just because they don't like the weather outside, and then the 'onus' is on me to not even evoke the appearance of what might be a negative/vindictive reaction to that snub in whatever I do with respect to that person in the game?
People who snub others often just want to rant and have the last word.
If Celina tells you your makeup is busted clown ratchet then snubs you, you're welcome to jump her to your little heart's content.
The point isn't that snub should guard you from reprisal for actions, but it is on you to make sure you don't you aren't (and for your own sake, don't look like you are) punishing them for nothing more than snubbing you. We've had instances in the past where someone on the leadership council discovers Susie Q has snubbed them, gets pissed, then everyone wants to jump on them - or outright pass laws that disallow snubbing leadership, etc. And obviously, that's not okay.
If Celina tells you your makeup is busted clown ratchet then snubs you, you're welcome to jump her to your little heart's content.
Good, good. I wasn't really making a case for myself here, I'm not aware of anyone snubbing me in the last two or so rl years (still might have happened, of course).
We've had instances in the past where someone on the leadership council discovers Susie Q has snubbed them, gets pissed, then everyone wants to jump on them - or outright pass laws that disallow snubbing leadership, etc. And obviously, that's not okay.
With regards to this, I support Shaddus' suggestion or would maybe even go one step further: Perhaps the person who snubs someone should be held accountable for that. If it causes complications like in Ssaliss case and others which potentially take up the time of players and admins (if the snubbed person has to issue and clarify if they can do this or that), then the admins may want to approach the snubber and ensure there was a valid reason for the snubbing to begin with and it didn't just happen out of a whim.
If Celina tells you your makeup is busted clown ratchet then snubs you, you're welcome to jump her to your little heart's content.
Good, good. I wasn't really making a case for myself here, I'm not aware of anyone snubbing me in the last two or so rl years (still might have happened, of course).
We've had instances in the past where someone on the leadership council discovers Susie Q has snubbed them, gets pissed, then everyone wants to jump on them - or outright pass laws that disallow snubbing leadership, etc. And obviously, that's not okay.
With regards to this, I support Shaddus' suggestion or would maybe even go one step further: Perhaps the person who snubs someone should be held accountable for that. If it causes complications like in Ssaliss case and others which potentially take up the time of players and admins (if the snubbed person has to issue and clarify if they can do this or that), then the admins may want to approach the snubber and ensure there was a valid reason for the snubbing to begin with and it didn't just happen out of a whim.
I think there are bigger problems if Celina is calling your makeup job ratchet and clown.
We don't police the reason for a snub - it's a tool available to everyone to use at their own discretion. What constitutes a reason to effectively "mute" someone is really on the individual.
Wow Shaddus with the right idea. How often does this happen?
Every other year under a Full Moon when I've been eating a steady diet of toffee and brie.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
PS, if you can't tell, I would like a snub re-work. It has some pretty silly loopholes and oddities.
Did you know that if I snub you, you will not hear anything that I SAY? You will still see my emotes, cltells, and I believe my ctells, but not what I say.
So I can snub you and say all kinds of BS about you right in front of you to everyone gathered, and you will never know. Or be able to defend yourself. And if you get someone to start relaying text to you, well, snub avoidance. Especially if said someone is relaying your text back (because then you are having an illegal conversation).
Edit: And yes, I issued this for clarification; it is intended to work this way.
As far as I can tell, you don't hear cltells if someone has snubbed you. You do however, see non-targeted emotes. Not sure about ctells.
But yes, snub really should just work one-way, unless you snub the other person back as well, since things like helm of telepathy are technically getting around snub if they're in the same room as the person that has snubbed you. You can hear that person's tells regardless of snub status.
In my opinion, it goes a little far if a person has to tiptoe around even a potential snubber as seems to be the case. Someone can snub me just because they don't like the weather outside, and then the 'onus' is on me to not even evoke the appearance of what might be a negative/vindictive reaction to that snub in whatever I do with respect to that person in the game?
People who snub others often just want to rant and have the last word.
If Celina tells you your makeup is busted clown ratchet then snubs you, you're welcome to jump her to your little heart's content.
The point isn't that snub should guard you from reprisal for actions, but it is on you to make sure you don't you aren't (and for your own sake, don't look like you are) punishing them for nothing more than snubbing you. We've had instances in the past where someone on the leadership council discovers Susie Q has snubbed them, gets pissed, then everyone wants to jump on them - or outright pass laws that disallow snubbing leadership, etc. And obviously, that's not okay.
So what happens if a city or a commune leader gets voted in and then
snubs half of the active population along with the guild leader circle? Or a guild leader is voted in and then snubs most of the active members
of the guild? Or if a person gets enemied for being at the wrong
place at the wrong time, but the people that can lift the enemy status
have snubbed said person?
PS, if you can't tell, I would like a snub re-work. It has some pretty silly loopholes and oddities.
Did you know that if I snub you, you will not hear anything that I SAY? You will still see my emotes, cltells, and I believe my ctells, but not what I say.
So I can snub you and say all kinds of BS about you right in front of you to everyone gathered, and you will never know. Or be able to defend yourself. And if you get someone to start relaying text to you, well, snub avoidance. Especially if said someone is relaying your text back (because then you are having an illegal conversation).
Edit: And yes, I issued this for clarification; it is intended to work this way.
As far as I can tell, you don't hear cltells if someone has snubbed you. You do however, see non-targeted emotes. Not sure about ctells.
But yes, snub really should just work one-way, unless you snub the other person back as well, since things like helm of telepathy are technically getting around snub if they're in the same room as the person that has snubbed you. You can hear that person's tells regardless of snub status.
In my opinion, it goes a little far if a person has to tiptoe around even a potential snubber as seems to be the case. Someone can snub me just because they don't like the weather outside, and then the 'onus' is on me to not even evoke the appearance of what might be a negative/vindictive reaction to that snub in whatever I do with respect to that person in the game?
People who snub others often just want to rant and have the last word.
If Celina tells you your makeup is busted clown ratchet then snubs you, you're welcome to jump her to your little heart's content.
The point isn't that snub should guard you from reprisal for actions, but it is on you to make sure you don't you aren't (and for your own sake, don't look like you are) punishing them for nothing more than snubbing you. We've had instances in the past where someone on the leadership council discovers Susie Q has snubbed them, gets pissed, then everyone wants to jump on them - or outright pass laws that disallow snubbing leadership, etc. And obviously, that's not okay.
So what happens if a city or a commune leader gets voted in and then snubs half of the active population along with the guild leader circle? Or a guild leader is voted in and then snubs most of the active members of the guild? Or if a person gets enemied for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, but the people that can lift the enemy status have snubbed said person?
That's their prerogative. Nothing stops someone from contesting them, either. Snub certainly doesn't.
Likewise, nothing guarantees you'll be unenemied even if it was "wrong place wrong time". Nothing says they can't gag your tells, throw away your letters, and completely ignore you, either - in any of your situations. In fact, if Glomdoring decided every citizen was going to snub everyone they weren't allied to, that's really on them!
Frankly, you can come up with all these examples of "abuse" but the reality is when someone uses it in such a manner the only person they're hurting is themself. They could carry on far longer if they just ignored everyone versus snubbing them, outright refusing to unenemy, etc etc. People who engage in that kind of mass snubbing tend to discover the social stigma that comes with it is basically crippling, or don't realize it but become pariahs restricted to manses and peaced rooms.
I just do not understand how that mechanic can be defended. If someone snubs you, that is their choice. It should not suddenly make you unable to hear them. There is no logical reason for this that I can see. If they say something and you respond... they cannot see it. No harm done. Snub has done what it is supposed to.
Also, it's not a mute button, it is an RPG-equivalent of a thermonuclear bomb. You drop it on someone to annihilate any RP opportunities, and to have justification to issue them if they do anything that even remotely smacks of avoidance or revenge. I will reiterate that there are certain players who deserve this; I do not think its effect should be downplayed, however. It is an entirely OOC mechanic that drastically changes what you can do. I mean, having to issue yourself for clarification in order to avoid running afoul of the law is not exactly appealing, especially if you were snubbed for advertising an ad on market!
Snub has a real and valid purpose in the game. It's there for people who feel uncomfortable, harassed, or otherwise overwhelmed by a person on an OOC level. In situations like this, it is appropriate that a player not only do not have to see communication or RP by the person, but also that they can feel secure that the person can no longer gain from knowing about, interacting with 'behind their back', or use anything they say or RP. A one way snub doesn't fully address this, where the snubbees reactions to the snubber (whether witnessed directly or through others) is often part of the problem. We are very strict with snub for this reason, and this is why its two-way.
Why don't we police or review reasons for snubbing? Why is it so absolute? Why does it exist to begin with, when we could just punish people who make people feel that way as admins? Our goal as admins, in a general sense, is usually to avoid the possibility of arbitrariness, bias, or constant involvement in routine interactions in the game. You may also recognize this approach with pk and Avenger. It's not fair to anyone that we be micromanaging what rp is too much, and thus is punishable, since its so individual and never the same for different interactions.
Thus, you have access to snub, as a means to restrict interactions that go too far for you personally. It's unfortunate that some may attempt to take advantage of the mechanic for cheap gains or making a 'point', but that manages to happen with almost any mechanic in the game. However, there are good reasons for the system being as it is, and so its unlikely to change to a great extent.
We of course welcome ideas, as always, that you think would improve your experience with snub mechanically (some have been mentioned here, like the suggestion of a notification when snubbed), either by IDEA or in the various ideas/suggestion threads. Concerns or questions with specific situations beyond the primary functionality of snub can be clarified via ISSUE ME, as well.
Comments
Also, I agree. Snubbing someone shouldn't suddenly 'stealth' things YOU (the snub-ing person) said to the person you snubbed.
1) Someone else there asks you why you are not responding, and
2) Quotes them to you.
Under those circumstances I would likely assume that you had snubbed them instead, and thus passing their words on to you would be a Bad Thing. But as a third party thereis no way to tell, either, and it can't be found out without involving a third party whois likely to be reluctant (with good reason)
I'd also like to ask that Snub require a reason.
SNUB EVENTRU because he makes a lot of noise.
SNUB XENTHOS because I don't like him.
SNUB SHADDUS because I feel he is being too spammy with his market ads.
Personally snub for me is something you use to avoid a select small number of troublemakers where there is no alternative means of working things out. It should be a last resort, not a prevention or a bubble to wrap yourself up in.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
People who snub others often just want to rant and have the last word.
The point isn't that snub should guard you from reprisal for actions, but it is on you to make sure you don't you aren't (and for your own sake, don't look like you are) punishing them for nothing more than snubbing you. We've had instances in the past where someone on the leadership council discovers Susie Q has snubbed them, gets pissed, then everyone wants to jump on them - or outright pass laws that disallow snubbing leadership, etc. And obviously, that's not okay.
Good, good. I wasn't really making a case for myself here, I'm not aware of anyone snubbing me in the last two or so rl years (still might have happened, of course).
With regards to this, I support Shaddus' suggestion or would maybe even go one step further: Perhaps the person who snubs someone should be held accountable for that. If it causes complications like in Ssaliss case and others which potentially take up the time of players and admins (if the snubbed person has to issue and clarify if they can do this or that), then the admins may want to approach the snubber and ensure there was a valid reason for the snubbing to begin with and it didn't just happen out of a whim.
I think there are bigger problems if Celina is calling your makeup job ratchet and clown.
We don't police the reason for a snub - it's a tool available to everyone to use at their own discretion. What constitutes a reason to effectively "mute" someone is really on the individual.
But yes, snub really should just work one-way, unless you snub the other person back as well, since things like helm of telepathy are technically getting around snub if they're in the same room as the person that has snubbed you. You can hear that person's tells regardless of snub status.
So what happens if a city or a commune leader gets voted in and then snubs half of the active population along with the guild leader circle? Or a guild leader is voted in and then snubs most of the active members of the guild? Or if a person gets enemied for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, but the people that can lift the enemy status have snubbed said person?
But yes, snub really should just work one-way, unless you snub the other person back as well, since things like helm of telepathy are technically getting around snub if they're in the same room as the person that has snubbed you. You can hear that person's tells regardless of snub status.
So what happens if a city or a commune leader gets voted in and then
snubs half of the active population along with the guild leader circle? Or a guild leader is voted in and then snubs most of the active members
of the guild? Or if a person gets enemied for being at the wrong
place at the wrong time, but the people that can lift the enemy status
have snubbed said person?
That's their prerogative. Nothing stops someone from contesting them, either. Snub certainly doesn't.
Likewise, nothing guarantees you'll be unenemied even if it was "wrong place wrong time". Nothing says they can't gag your tells, throw away your letters, and completely ignore you, either - in any of your situations. In fact, if Glomdoring decided every citizen was going to snub everyone they weren't allied to, that's really on them!
Frankly, you can come up with all these examples of "abuse" but the reality is when someone uses it in such a manner the only person they're hurting is themself. They could carry on far longer if they just ignored everyone versus snubbing them, outright refusing to unenemy, etc etc. People who engage in that kind of mass snubbing tend to discover the social stigma that comes with it is basically crippling, or don't realize it but become pariahs restricted to manses and peaced rooms.
... it does not prevent you from hearing what I SAY. You would have to gag me back to do so.
Or I can just snub you and arbitrarily decide, for no reason at all, that you cannot hear me. Through no choice or action of your own.
Also, it's not a mute button, it is an RPG-equivalent of a thermonuclear bomb. You drop it on someone to annihilate any RP opportunities, and to have justification to issue them if they do anything that even remotely smacks of avoidance or revenge. I will reiterate that there are certain players who deserve this; I do not think its effect should be downplayed, however. It is an entirely OOC mechanic that drastically changes what you can do. I mean, having to issue yourself for clarification in order to avoid running afoul of the law is not exactly appealing, especially if you were snubbed for advertising an ad on market!