Restart the communes, in Ackleberry and Jojo...new skills, everything. Timelock the deader cities. Easiest way to handle this kind of suggestion. Orgs aren't removed forever this way, and can be revisted later (as bashing areas, event supermobs/timequake bosses, whatever, or even reopened as 'new' orgs should we get the population together again), while fixing the issues addressed with the suggestion of removing orgs in the first place?
Personally, having seen the shit that went down on Imperian when they tried, and living through Shallam being nuked despite everything...I'd not want to see this happen at all =/ But, that's just my opinion.
So far we're told that outright new orgs won't happen, though if we do manage to convince them, some mortal builders are definitely going to have to be brought on to supplement the process.
@Estarra Skimmed thread, probably missed a lot. Reposting the suggestion I've posted previously.
One logic used during the guild overhaul applies here really, people will be more likely to be resentful if their org is deleted while other people get to keep theirs. This is why I'm in the camp of "delete all orgs, build something new". It might take longer but sometimes that is what's needed. Even though with the suggestion of rolling back to the original three Serenwilde would "survive" I'd still suggest this over that.
Taking notes from the lore, I think there's really intriguing potential in a three way split that goes off the following themes (all orgs retain the skills of their merged orgs so there's no dev time needed to make sun druidry or the like):
Dynaric - Merger of Celest and Hallifax, becoming the "Light" focused org. You have the purity and holiness themes, law and order, harmony, the zealotry of the holier-than-thou and the egotism of hubristic scientists.
Magnoran - Merger of Gaudiguch and Magnagora, the "Dark" focused org. Here is the home for people that seek personal power, people that have fallen to the temptations of darkness and chaos wheeling and dealing with powers that could annihilate them.
Maeve/Faethorn(/Yudhite?) - Merger of Glomdoring and Serenwilde, obviously being the "Nature" org. Balanced in a way between the light and dark, those that dedicate themselves to the natural world, not just the people of the forests but seeking connection to the whole natural world.
If you kept the three guild concept this gives space for each of the mergers to have a guild focused more on one former org with space for something new from the merger. Quick example being, the Dynaric org could have a holy church of Celestia guild, a scientific research institution, and perhaps their third could be something along the themes of artistic expression perhaps. (seems like there could be some connection there.
Each could just keep the former territories that already exist, you could have an evolving storyline where you start just by creating the connection between the two orgs, then have them build an organisational home over time. (Would be freaking amazing if the forest org got some kinda ethereal home like faethorn)
Future expansions also then exist with the cities potentially finding new elemental/cosmic planes or even finding ways to create powers from the mergers of the ones they have a connection to. The Faethorn org also offers the opportunity to bring Ackleberry and Jojobo into the game under the banner of the Faethorn org.
I did see the thing about wanting to reduce the number of classes in the game, but I would achieve that by instead removing skill choices.
I.e rather than the commune having like... 3 wiccan variations, 4 melder variations, 4 wood variations, 15 warrior variations, 3 bard variations, and 2 monk variations.
Instead you could just have like... 2 wiccan variations (night/moon), 2 melder variations (stag/crow), 2 wood variations (wilde/wyrden), 2 bard variations, 2 monk variations, and ? warrior variations. You could go as low as 12 variations per org as opposed to 31(?), warriors are the main variable really. (12 is bringing them down to one weapon choice and either locked to tracking, a totems spec, or creating a new totems spec for them)
This lets people keep their class to a degree and also leaves open a bigger door to add in new variations. Because you have the option to either return terts to the variations or add in things like the aforementioned jojobo and ackleberry classes (which seems pretty guaranteed to get people excited) and say... magmamancers or the like for the cities.
edit: Just to make sure it's said, another reason for this is that there's going to be some players who will just move to an existing org and adapt their rp if they lost their org cause it already happens all the time. The hope with a merge is to retain as many people who will want to keep their rp should this happen.
I detest Celest/Hallifax and Magnagora/Gaudiguch mergers because it's so...inconsistent with Lusternia's actual lore.
You can't find a less holier org than Hallifax. And you can never make Gaudiguch jive with Magnagora's social stratification.
I saw the gaudiguch freedom focus within a Magnoran org as a people that focus more on trying to be "masters of their own destiny", making deals to ensure both power and autonomy. While others instead willingly serve entities like the demon lords in exchange for power. Two different sides of a coin in a way.
Similar thing with Celest and Halli, you'd build the parent org into something else but an aspect would be the merger of faith and science. Maybe some people on one end doing all sorts of ritual type things that people on the science end explain through their own lens.
My main recommendation is to make the change into a long term story arc. Since your strength @Estarra is with lore and storytelling, I imagine you could fill in the blanks wonderfully.
Step one: All orgs are destroyed, everyone is a refugee drawing from a combined nexus (all class/org abilities work) -- everyone is on a team together fighting against admin driven instances, perhaps village revolts are replaced with village invasions, etc. to save the basin. Hopefully some of the code for things like hamsterhunts/ascension/etc. can be used for these sorts of events. The story arc should take a fair amount of time, on the order of months.
Step two: Refugees eventually overcome and/or mitigate the external threat and there is a story arc to empower the nexii again. People can work to restart whatever nexus they choose. After some time/events the refugees split into two groups, reflecting the two most successful nexii, at this point the omni-nexus is disabled and class abilities are limited again (or remains if risk of skillset related angst too high?). At this point competitive events such as village influencing/aetherbubbles are reactivated.
At a later date, nexii can similarly be restarted if the admin feel that there is a need for another contender.
The overall idea is to give the playerbase some time working all together for a common goal, perhaps defusing some of the tension across the game, give them the ability to shape the future, and let the admin focus their attention on working with one combined group. The key being of course to make it a storyline that the extremely varied characters of the basin could get behind. What would it take for diametrically opposed characters to recognize the need to band together? If only there was such a threat in Lusternia's histories.
I've only been around Lusternia for just over two months, so my say may not carry much weight. I've already lost a bunch of sleep mulling over the wanting to convey with words how it all makes me feel, which I'm still not sure I'll be able to do, but we gonna try.
First, I'm writing this in defense of Glomdoring. Well, all three of the organizations mentioned to go dormant surprised me, as they are the most unique city/communal ideas that I've seen in a game. Every other RPG-esque game has the 'good/bad/forest' archetype offered for a starting area. I know that's what's "familiar", but it's also ... been done. And it's been done a lot. That being said, I know that because it's familiar, people tend to flock to either New Celest or Magnagora, because in every RPG there's a good vs evil conflict. ( please don't resent me for that, Celesties/Maggies ; ; y'all are great in your own ways )
Second, I don't think it's a good idea to have only three organizations. Really I'm against destroying ANY OF THEM, but since this is a 'maybe' discussion... I think it'd be too easy for there to be a 2v1 alliance, which might things less fun. Having an alliance with New Celest has been wonderful! It's good to have reason to interact positively with people outside of your own organization, to get an idea of how they live life and how different things matter to them in different ways.
Third - and I need to preface this by saying that I am the type of person who would normally join Serenwilde - I think story-wise, it'd be incredible fun to have the Wyrd spread from Glomdoring and into Serenwilde, effectively merging the two forests. Think of like a ... the Wyrd spreads through EthGlom, into Faethorn, then EthSerene, finally breaking through the planar barrier and into the woods themselves. There's this misconception that Glomdoring is like, the evil forest, but it really is just a 'dark forest'. Not inherently evil. The thing that didn't kill them (i.e. the Taint) didn't kill them, it made them stronger. It might be wonderfully fascinating to bring that 'nature shows no mercy' concept into Serenwilde. ( again, please don't resent me Serenies, y'all are also great. )
Fourth, this could probably all be avoided if we did work on improving the player base. I loved what Ishra mentioned earlier and whole-heartedly agree:
Ishra said: Just spit-balling here, but are we doing anything to capitalize on the staggering resurgence in popularity that D&D is experiencing right now? MUDs appeal to the retro gaming trend and the increasing interest in role-playing. And unlike D&D, you don't have the hassle of finding a DM, scheduling nightmares, and investing hundreds of dollars on books. I feel like this rising tide could lift our boat, if we catch on to it fast enough. Even just banner ads focused around the idea of an always-on fantasy roleplaying experience, positioned in the right places, could make a big difference.
[EDIT] Just want to add that the whole reason I got back into MUDs was because of the stated hassles with D&D. I feel like I might not be the only one who could be won over by easing those paint points.
D&D is so popular right now, and EVERYONE and their dogs are jumping on the band wagon of sharing their stories, their characters, their campaigns. Lusternia could stand to gain a lot from advertising itself in a way that appeals to this growing nerdy-as-hell demographic! There's Podcasts, Twitch streams, Youtube, social media. You've already got some really lovely visuals on the main page that would work great for advertising (if you don't already). Marketing a game that's been around so long can be a lot. Again, because I'm so new I don't know if it's been discussed before, but you have a pretty dedicated player base - maybe we, the players, could somehow help out?
Imma wrap it up, because I've crested delirium and am fast approaching the 'I can't make much more sense if I keep talking' point. I love this game, and I love the people who play this game, and I think it's safe to say that we all want to see it flourish and grow. I don't envy the decisions that you and your team have had to make, @Estarra, because you'd have to be stuck between a rockeater and a hard place to have to broach this topic.
‘It’s important to be kind. You can’t know all the times that you’ve hurt people in tiny, significant ways. It’s easy to be cruel without meaning to be. There’s nothing you can do about that. But you can choose to be kind. Be kind.’
Firstly, I like the idea of more divine interaction, due to a culling of orgs.
I appreciate we can migrate a character, or transfer all credits.
I'm curious if players would feel motivated enough to learn a new skill from scratch, after putting a lot of time and effort into the skills they already have. I think this also speaks for their RP arcs.
If players quit, because they feel too deflated/life responsibilities etc...are we then presuming/hoping new players will come along to fill the new orgs? If new players don't join...are we back to square one?
I'm interested in seeing numbers, maybe a poll, on the amount of players who would potentially leave vs those who would stay (Only as some sort of balancing data gather.) Not to mention, a poll on which orgs we think should stay, because it's we the players who will have to immerse ourselves in the situation given. (With respect to those who work hard to produce what we already have, what we will have, what has been had over the years.)
Player behaviour has a lot to answer for when people also quit the game, quit the discord servers and just isolate themselves to the point that they leave. So, on the other hand, I don't think this will necessarily be the negative, driving force behind player retention (?) - I can't say that it's 50/50.
I like the possible ideas of clans within orgs, rather than one leader. Each clan/family head of a Great House could be the leaders of said org. Branching off of that, each clan/family will invest in the themes and lore of the Org they came from, so the orphaned players still have that opportunity to continue their RP. Going forward, there's going to need to be a compromise of some kind. Families could also integrate with the guilds, and those then integrate with divine pantheons.
Therein you will have your 3 (4 is prefered) orgs, with lots of activity to be getting on with. Quests could also be tied in with this?
Don't shoot me, though, these are just my fanciful ideas.
Edit: Just spotted there is already a poll! Sorry!
I honestly feel like there are two groups of people. The first group thinks there is a problem with status quo. The second group doesn't think there is a problem with the game rather the problem lies with the first group of people. Also, it seems that people on the winning side of the population lottery has no issue, and they can not see the problem of massively outnumbering the opposing faction. Moreover, the outnumbering side points to examples when the lesser numbered faction had the stars aligned and came close to even numbers while at any point the outnumbering side could call in more. If as a playerbase we do not see this as a problem then I will stand by my retirement decision that I have made twice (varying reasons with overarching themes).
Glomdoring is overtuned. The entire synergy is inherently better than other orgs due to literal built in health plus kill factor pressure (Mana). Removing Glomdoring will almost instantly level the balance playing field. Opening up players to be able to move or start another character without loss will be our best shot at evening the population.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me, I urge you to create an alt on the other side. I was Rasvin prior to Innon, and I have friends on both sides. The issue isn't a lack of want to fix the game, but it is a lack of perspective.
While I do have an alt that I fiddle with, this change would make me come back to Lusternia as my main game, and I would also be willing to invest in it again.
It's time to let go of the petty OOC differences. Let's start fresh even if it is OOC and not a deletion of orgs. Attitudes need to reset as much as the game does.
@Innon I know it has been a week but lets not turn this thread into another bash Glom thread?
I didn't Glom bash. However, if you would like to ignore facts be my guest.
Still looking for facts but just finding anecdote.
It says:
Try Glom: "I urge you to create an alt on the other side." Delete Glom :"Removing Glomdoring will almost instantly level the balance playing field." Game will be be saved: "Opening up players to be able to move or start another character without loss will be our best shot at evening the population."
However, you are right, facts would help!
Perhaps the admin could release figures on:
Active number of people in each org Number of people who joined each org in the last year (split by new players and alts) Number of people who left each org in the last year to join another (split by new players and alts) Number of new players in each org that still logged in after 3 months? Number of new players in each org that still logged in after 6 months?
You want to support those orgs that attract and retain new players rather than spending a year discovering you can't polish a turd
@Kistan I actually was referring to Glom/Gaudi/Celest newer players that have never faced the odds of this side.
Fact: Glom's basis is on Mana drain with bleed. Bleed pressures Mana or can kill you via health.
Fact: No other org has this kind of balance. The closest is Hallifax, but timewarp will not kill you on it's own.
Fact: There is a population discrepency during events.
You literally just attacked all orgs outside of Glomdoring (including Gaudiguch) for not being able to attract or retain players. This proves my point of you being part of the group that only sees the people of the other side as the problem.
Stop claiming we are blaming people then blaming us. It is very unbecoming.
@Innon. I love you dude. And I know that you are upset with certain aspects of the game. However, do you really think destroying the organisation that seems to 'have it all' will help a dying game? Would not the better option be to build up the other organsations so that they can achieve the same synergy and population retention?
Dropping the OOC 'petty differences' is not possible when some of those revolve around abuse and bullying tactics which admin have allowed to continue for literal years. It is beyond forgiveness an mediation. What we can do is acknowledge that there are certain cliques in this game that will never mesh. And to just leave what is be and work around it. Merging these cliques through org deletion will exacerbate these situations, it will inflame the mere dislike certain people have for others and these organisations will turn into a permanent Serenwilde with constant political unrest and more and more people will end up leaving.
I would also like to mention we had someone declaring they tried to kill themselves over all of this 'petty' nonsense. And they were permitted to remain playing the game. How do you think this situation will help these peoples, who clearly don't have the mental stability to cope with these social dilemmas? This move will be so incredibly bad for the mental health of so many people.
Also, we have offered to make alts at various times. But how do you think those alts would be received if they managed to put 2 and 2 together? There is a reason the population is where it is. We don't get treated poorly and our young don't have to listen to constant negative vile rants that occur in other places about 'us'. We reject people who are not nice. And we keep our community safe from that kind of behaviour.
@Gabe people aren't isolating themselves by leaving the discord server, they are protecting their enjoyment of the game. None who have left the discord server miss it. Our quality of life IG has only increased. However it is noted that we now do miss out on those moments where admin do hold discussion with players on very important IG matters. And that is what is being brought to the table here. If admin say anything on that server regrading anything to do with the game it should be posted here so that those who choose not to engage with that group of 'players' can still be a part of the conversation. Which was brought up as a problem many months ago and admin ignored. And appear to still ignore.
Having a player relay the information doesn't sit well with many of us. We would like to hear it from the horses mouth. So unless @Estarra and other admin want to declare that Makai speaks for them in an official manner, because Estarra could turn around and screw us all over and say, "Well I said 'Anyway, I pretty much agree with Makai's thinking on approaching the specifics.' and no one asked me personally." So I am asking for clarification. we have been screwed over before. why would we put ourselves in a position where that could happen again?
@Kistan I actually was referring to Glom/Gaudi/Celest newer players that have never faced the odds of this side.
Fact: Glom's basis is on Mana drain with bleed. Bleed pressures Mana or can kill you via health.
Fact: No other org has this kind of balance. The closest is Hallifax, but timewarp will not kill you on it's own.
Fact: There is a population discrepency during events.
You literally just attacked all orgs outside of Glomdoring (including Gaudiguch) for not being able to attract or retain players. This proves my point of you being part of the group that only sees the people of the other side as the problem.
Stop claiming we are blaming people then blaming us. It is very unbecoming.
I think you find I may have attacked Glomdoring as well!
The thing is, we are all guessing and do not know.
Serenwilde may in fact be the most populous organisation in the game (and then it will be said it is not number but active fighters that count in events)
What i am happy to say (and it is not an attack on anyone) is that actually, we don't know - give us the numbers and we can chew over them. Without facts it is anecdote.
If by seeing people on the other side as part of the problem because they can not hold players, I would say yes they may be part of the problem - investigate and find out why
If it is players on either side that can not hold players, I would say yes they may be part of the problem - investigate and find out why
I would say if this game needs to be saved, someone should at least look at it. Build on the game's strengths, not weaknesses
@Enadonella I agree with you. I would never ever join another Lusternia Discord. From my own part, it really did play a part in ruining the experience. I should have elaborated, but I don't want to detract from this thread.
I think this whole 'detracting' thing people have going isn't doing the conversation justice at all. There are so many aspects to this. If we can only focus upon one we are never going to see the bigger picture. I know people are scared to piss off Estarra, and I know there is a lot of ill will from certain players towards me. But I have never been one to just stand by. I will always speak my mind and offer another perspective, often the less popular one as I am well aware.
I believe people are capable of having a whole conversation not just focusing on one point. What doesn't seem to happen is when personal attacks happen the person who initiates them isn't dealt with instead the thread is shut down. It just hurts the community discussion further. But that is not likely to change so I can see how silencing oneself to try and preserve what little conversation is being had is preferable. I just hope that one day actual conversation can evolve here without silly memes and snark (or shade as you kids call it) being thrown around, which is the real distraction.
Let's not derail. This conversation is too important for Lusternia's future to be playing the "we will never ever possibly resolve our differences" card or the "x is a vile, toxic place" card. Demonizing each other isn't a good look. Put that stuff aside for now - I know I will be trying to do so. I also know this post will absolutely be flamed/snarked at, but please understand that my intention isn't to incite rage here - I know 100% I've propagated what could be construed as negative conversations about Glomdoring and Glomdoring's players. And the people I indicted responded in the same way. So consider this an olive branch if you want.
Probably the fairest move is to go back to Serenwilde/Celest/Magnagora. Concentrating the playerbase and having to only work on 15 skillsets instead of 30 will be an incredible improvement, and people will reach parity in their skillsets much, much faster.
Regardless of what orgs make the cut, people are going to feel hugely disenfranchised. That's why basing it on like "who's been the most unsuccessful org in the past x years" is a really, really bad move and crazy subjective.
Whatever orgs are cut should be timelocked, not permanently destroyed. Don't crush people's hopes of ever seeing their home again.
Deleting all 6 orgs and conceiving 3 entirely new ones with new skillsets is also a fair compromise, but would be a lot of work unless you can essentially copypaste some code over from skillsets you like and reflavor them.
That's why basing it on like "who's been the most unsuccessful org in the past x years" is a really, really bad move and crazy subjective.
I would have to say that you are wrong on this though I can understand it is emotive
However, that is how you stay in business. You cut the chaff from the wheat.
Any business model that starts with throwing away your more successful lines while doubling down on your least successful lines is going to fail.
Counterpoint: Every org since Falaeron's Ascension has gone through periods of being very quiet and unable to participate in the game. Who are you going to choose if every org has had periods of unsuccessful-ness?
However, do you really think destroying the organisation that seems to 'have it all' will help a dying game?
Because clearly, the game is dying so might as well let the org that's killing it continue to do so. Just like if you get a broken leg, the solution is to cut it off and let you bleed to death.
I would also like to mention we had someone declaring they tried to kill themselves over all of this 'petty' nonsense.
Who are you talking about?
We don't get treated poorly and our young don't have to listen to constant negative vile rants that occur in other places about 'us'.
I'd love to see one example of you or anyone from Glom-core creating an alt and then having that alt subjected to "negative vile rants". But oh, wait, you're a player, we can't take your word that this is happening. Admin, please show the negative vile rants the poor victimized Glom-alts are subjected to on a daily basis.
"Why can't the other side hold players?" Well, it's definitely not the grief tactics one org that is perfect and blameless in every way uses on any person who dares to get involved in pk against them. It's definitely not the report wars. It's definitely not the refusal to interact with anyone on the other side, and instead continue to gaslight them at every opportunity.
The other side just needs to stop being so mean, ie, stop competing with the perfect org at all, give up and leave in frustration. Then everything will be perfect, and those left will be happy right up until the game shuts down. (It was probably the fault of the one or two mean people on the other side who stayed behind.)
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
That's why basing it on like "who's been the most unsuccessful org in the past x years" is a really, really bad move and crazy subjective.
I would have to say that you are wrong on this though I can understand it is emotive
However, that is how you stay in business. You cut the chaff from the wheat.
Any business model that starts with throwing away your more successful lines while doubling down on your least successful lines is going to fail.
Counterpoint: Every org since Falaeron's Ascension has gone through periods of being very quiet and unable to participate in the game. Who are you going to choose if every org has had periods of unsuccessful-ness?
Show us the numbers and let us see if that is true? Facts not anecdote
However, that is how you stay in business. You cut the chaff from the wheat.
Any business model that starts with throwing away your more successful lines while doubling down on your least successful lines is going to fail.
1. Please give a list of every player you want to quit the game. The 'chaff', as it were.
2. Please name the list of successful online games you have managed. We need facts, not theorizing or emotions.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Before I start deleting posts, let's remember that this discussion is meant to be respectful and constructive. We have all heard the well-trod debates regarding Glomdoring so I request that it not continue here.
Regarding Discord, there is never anything "important" discussed there. Admin may or may not voluntarily chat there in an unofficial capacity. The only thing I have said regarding this subject on Discord was to point people to this thread. If you don't like Discord, don't go there. You won't miss anything important. An admin may chat there in an off-duty capacity, but I don't think it's anything more than that. We would prefer that players use the forums, especially on subjects such as ... reducing the number of player orgs!
So to direct us back on track, the ideas regarding reworking all the skillsets in a major manner is an interesting idea (and, believe me, I understand the appeal), but I really don't think it's something that could be practically done. The same is true of creating new orgs--the massive undertaking involved just isn't something that can be done in any conceivably reasonable time--I should know as I've been a part of creating 6 of them! I think the ideas presented about an event that causes all orgs to go dormant is intriguing so it's mulling over in my mind.
If anyone has ideas for places for us to market Lusternia, I'm all ears! I did inquire about Critical Role some time ago and they're sponsorship programs run into 5 digits. Any marketing done would probably be out of my pocket which means the budget would be extremely limited.
That's why basing it on like "who's been the most unsuccessful org in the past x years" is a really, really bad move and crazy subjective.
I would have to say that you are wrong on this though I can understand it is emotive
However, that is how you stay in business. You cut the chaff from the wheat.
Any business model that starts with throwing away your more successful lines while doubling down on your least successful lines is going to fail.
Counterpoint: Every org since Falaeron's Ascension has gone through periods of being very quiet and unable to participate in the game. Who are you going to choose if every org has had periods of unsuccessful-ness?
Show us the numbers and let us see if that is true? Facts not anecdote
You keep saying that. I don't think you really know what you are asking for. Some players should be weighted higher than others. Some are alts. Some do nothing. Some do alot. Please stop asking for data unless you have a plan with dealing with the static that comes with data. Basically, you keep asking for that because you know it's impossible to get accurately. Therefore, you are derailing this conversation.
That's why basing it on like "who's been the most unsuccessful org in the past x years" is a really, really bad move and crazy subjective.
I would have to say that you are wrong on this though I can understand it is emotive
However, that is how you stay in business. You cut the chaff from the wheat.
Any business model that starts with throwing away your more successful lines while doubling down on your least successful lines is going to fail.
Counterpoint: Every org since Falaeron's Ascension has gone through periods of being very quiet and unable to participate in the game. Who are you going to choose if every org has had periods of unsuccessful-ness?
But nobody cares about which orgs were successful before - the cut didn't happen then. The cut is happening (potentially) now, so you look at the changes that will disrupt the least number of players now. Which orgs are most populous at the time of the cut is what matters.
That said, it should be four orgs, not three. Three orgs doesn't work, especially in a game where the player base is so inclined to form lasting cliques.
Comments
Personally, having seen the shit that went down on Imperian when they tried, and living through Shallam being nuked despite everything...I'd not want to see this happen at all =/ But, that's just my opinion.
Accountability is necessary.
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Jokes aside, don't think they'd take too kindly. What with your attitude and all towards them.
Accountability is necessary.
Skimmed thread, probably missed a lot. Reposting the suggestion I've posted previously.
One logic used during the guild overhaul applies here really, people will be more likely to be resentful if their org is deleted while other people get to keep theirs. This is why I'm in the camp of "delete all orgs, build something new". It might take longer but sometimes that is what's needed. Even though with the suggestion of rolling back to the original three Serenwilde would "survive" I'd still suggest this over that.
Taking notes from the lore, I think there's really intriguing potential in a three way split that goes off the following themes (all orgs retain the skills of their merged orgs so there's no dev time needed to make sun druidry or the like):
If you kept the three guild concept this gives space for each of the mergers to have a guild focused more on one former org with space for something new from the merger.
Quick example being, the Dynaric org could have a holy church of Celestia guild, a scientific research institution, and perhaps their third could be something along the themes of artistic expression perhaps. (seems like there could be some connection there.
Each could just keep the former territories that already exist, you could have an evolving storyline where you start just by creating the connection between the two orgs, then have them build an organisational home over time. (Would be freaking amazing if the forest org got some kinda ethereal home like faethorn)
Future expansions also then exist with the cities potentially finding new elemental/cosmic planes or even finding ways to create powers from the mergers of the ones they have a connection to. The Faethorn org also offers the opportunity to bring Ackleberry and Jojobo into the game under the banner of the Faethorn org.
I did see the thing about wanting to reduce the number of classes in the game, but I would achieve that by instead removing skill choices.
I.e rather than the commune having like... 3 wiccan variations, 4 melder variations, 4 wood variations, 15 warrior variations, 3 bard variations, and 2 monk variations.
Instead you could just have like... 2 wiccan variations (night/moon), 2 melder variations (stag/crow), 2 wood variations (wilde/wyrden), 2 bard variations, 2 monk variations, and ? warrior variations. You could go as low as 12 variations per org as opposed to 31(?), warriors are the main variable really. (12 is bringing them down to one weapon choice and either locked to tracking, a totems spec, or creating a new totems spec for them)
This lets people keep their class to a degree and also leaves open a bigger door to add in new variations. Because you have the option to either return terts to the variations or add in things like the aforementioned jojobo and ackleberry classes (which seems pretty guaranteed to get people excited) and say... magmamancers or the like for the cities.
edit: Just to make sure it's said, another reason for this is that there's going to be some players who will just move to an existing org and adapt their rp if they lost their org cause it already happens all the time. The hope with a merge is to retain as many people who will want to keep their rp should this happen.
You can't find a less holier org than Hallifax. And you can never make Gaudiguch jive with Magnagora's social stratification.
Accountability is necessary.
Similar thing with Celest and Halli, you'd build the parent org into something else but an aspect would be the merger of faith and science. Maybe some people on one end doing all sorts of ritual type things that people on the science end explain through their own lens.
Just as examples.
Step one: All orgs are destroyed, everyone is a refugee drawing from a combined nexus (all class/org abilities work) -- everyone is on a team together fighting against admin driven instances, perhaps village revolts are replaced with village invasions, etc. to save the basin. Hopefully some of the code for things like hamsterhunts/ascension/etc. can be used for these sorts of events. The story arc should take a fair amount of time, on the order of months.
Step two: Refugees eventually overcome and/or mitigate the external threat and there is a story arc to empower the nexii again. People can work to restart whatever nexus they choose. After some time/events the refugees split into two groups, reflecting the two most successful nexii, at this point the omni-nexus is disabled and class abilities are limited again (or remains if risk of skillset related angst too high?). At this point competitive events such as village influencing/aetherbubbles are reactivated.
At a later date, nexii can similarly be restarted if the admin feel that there is a need for another contender.
The overall idea is to give the playerbase some time working all together for a common goal, perhaps defusing some of the tension across the game, give them the ability to shape the future, and let the admin focus their attention on working with one combined group. The key being of course to make it a storyline that the extremely varied characters of the basin could get behind. What would it take for diametrically opposed characters to recognize the need to band together? If only there was such a threat in Lusternia's histories.
Good luck!
First, I'm writing this in defense of Glomdoring. Well, all three of the organizations mentioned to go dormant surprised me, as they are the most unique city/communal ideas that I've seen in a game. Every other RPG-esque game has the 'good/bad/forest' archetype offered for a starting area. I know that's what's "familiar", but it's also ... been done. And it's been done a lot. That being said, I know that because it's familiar, people tend to flock to either New Celest or Magnagora, because in every RPG there's a good vs evil conflict. ( please don't resent me for that, Celesties/Maggies ; ; y'all are great in your own ways )
Second, I don't think it's a good idea to have only three organizations. Really I'm against destroying ANY OF THEM, but since this is a 'maybe' discussion... I think it'd be too easy for there to be a 2v1 alliance, which might things less fun. Having an alliance with New Celest has been wonderful! It's good to have reason to interact positively with people outside of your own organization, to get an idea of how they live life and how different things matter to them in different ways.
Third - and I need to preface this by saying that I am the type of person who would normally join Serenwilde - I think story-wise, it'd be incredible fun to have the Wyrd spread from Glomdoring and into Serenwilde, effectively merging the two forests. Think of like a ... the Wyrd spreads through EthGlom, into Faethorn, then EthSerene, finally breaking through the planar barrier and into the woods themselves. There's this misconception that Glomdoring is like, the evil forest, but it really is just a 'dark forest'. Not inherently evil. The thing that didn't kill them (i.e. the Taint) didn't kill them, it made them stronger. It might be wonderfully fascinating to bring that 'nature shows no mercy' concept into Serenwilde. ( again, please don't resent me Serenies, y'all are also great. )
Fourth, this could probably all be avoided if we did work on improving the player base. I loved what Ishra mentioned earlier and whole-heartedly agree:
[EDIT] Just want to add that the whole reason I got back into MUDs was because of the stated hassles with D&D. I feel like I might not be the only one who could be won over by easing those paint points.
Imma wrap it up, because I've crested delirium and am fast approaching the 'I can't make much more sense if I keep talking' point. I love this game, and I love the people who play this game, and I think it's safe to say that we all want to see it flourish and grow. I don't envy the decisions that you and your team have had to make, @Estarra, because you'd have to be stuck between a rockeater and a hard place to have to broach this topic.
It’s easy to be cruel without meaning to be. There’s nothing you can do about that. But you can choose to be kind. Be kind.’
I appreciate we can migrate a character, or transfer all credits.
I'm curious if players would feel motivated enough to learn a new skill from scratch, after putting a lot of time and effort into the skills they already have. I think this also speaks for their RP arcs.
If players quit, because they feel too deflated/life responsibilities etc...are we then presuming/hoping new players will come along to fill the new orgs? If new players don't join...are we back to square one?
I'm interested in seeing numbers, maybe a poll, on the amount of players who would potentially leave vs those who would stay (Only as some sort of balancing data gather.) Not to mention, a poll on which orgs we think should stay, because it's we the players who will have to immerse ourselves in the situation given. (With respect to those who work hard to produce what we already have, what we will have, what has been had over the years.)
Player behaviour has a lot to answer for when people also quit the game, quit the discord servers and just isolate themselves to the point that they leave. So, on the other hand, I don't think this will necessarily be the negative, driving force behind player retention (?) - I can't say that it's 50/50.
I like the possible ideas of clans within orgs, rather than one leader. Each clan/family head of a Great House could be the leaders of said org. Branching off of that, each clan/family will invest in the themes and lore of the Org they came from, so the orphaned players still have that opportunity to continue their RP. Going forward, there's going to need to be a compromise of some kind. Families could also integrate with the guilds, and those then integrate with divine pantheons.
Therein you will have your 3 (4 is prefered) orgs, with lots of activity to be getting on with. Quests could also be tied in with this?
Don't shoot me, though, these are just my fanciful ideas.
Edit: Just spotted there is already a poll! Sorry!
Glomdoring is overtuned. The entire synergy is inherently better than other orgs due to literal built in health plus kill factor pressure (Mana). Removing Glomdoring will almost instantly level the balance playing field. Opening up players to be able to move or start another character without loss will be our best shot at evening the population.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me, I urge you to create an alt on the other side. I was Rasvin prior to Innon, and I have friends on both sides. The issue isn't a lack of want to fix the game, but it is a lack of perspective.
While I do have an alt that I fiddle with, this change would make me come back to Lusternia as my main game, and I would also be willing to invest in it again.
It's time to let go of the petty OOC differences. Let's start fresh even if it is OOC and not a deletion of orgs. Attitudes need to reset as much as the game does.
It says:
Try Glom: "I urge you to create an alt on the other side."
Delete Glom :"Removing Glomdoring will almost instantly level the balance playing field."
Game will be be saved: "Opening up players to be able to move or start another character without loss will be our best shot at evening the population."
However, you are right, facts would help!
Perhaps the admin could release figures on:
Active number of people in each org
Number of people who joined each org in the last year (split by new players and alts)
Number of people who left each org in the last year to join another (split by new players and alts)
Number of new players in each org that still logged in after 3 months?
Number of new players in each org that still logged in after 6 months?
You want to support those orgs that attract and retain new players rather than spending a year discovering you can't polish a turd
Fact: Glom's basis is on Mana drain with bleed. Bleed pressures Mana or can kill you via health.
Fact: No other org has this kind of balance. The closest is Hallifax, but timewarp will not kill you on it's own.
Fact: There is a population discrepency during events.
You literally just attacked all orgs outside of Glomdoring (including Gaudiguch) for not being able to attract or retain players. This proves my point of you being part of the group that only sees the people of the other side as the problem.
Stop claiming we are blaming people then blaming us. It is very unbecoming.
Dropping the OOC 'petty differences' is not possible when some of those revolve around abuse and bullying tactics which admin have allowed to continue for literal years. It is beyond forgiveness an mediation. What we can do is acknowledge that there are certain cliques in this game that will never mesh. And to just leave what is be and work around it. Merging these cliques through org deletion will exacerbate these situations, it will inflame the mere dislike certain people have for others and these organisations will turn into a permanent Serenwilde with constant political unrest and more and more people will end up leaving.
I would also like to mention we had someone declaring they tried to kill themselves over all of this 'petty' nonsense. And they were permitted to remain playing the game. How do you think this situation will help these peoples, who clearly don't have the mental stability to cope with these social dilemmas? This move will be so incredibly bad for the mental health of so many people.
Also, we have offered to make alts at various times. But how do you think those alts would be received if they managed to put 2 and 2 together? There is a reason the population is where it is. We don't get treated poorly and our young don't have to listen to constant negative vile rants that occur in other places about 'us'. We reject people who are not nice. And we keep our community safe from that kind of behaviour.
@Gabe people aren't isolating themselves by leaving the discord server, they are protecting their enjoyment of the game. None who have left the discord server miss it. Our quality of life IG has only increased. However it is noted that we now do miss out on those moments where admin do hold discussion with players on very important IG matters. And that is what is being brought to the table here. If admin say anything on that server regrading anything to do with the game it should be posted here so that those who choose not to engage with that group of 'players' can still be a part of the conversation. Which was brought up as a problem many months ago and admin ignored. And appear to still ignore.
Having a player relay the information doesn't sit well with many of us. We would like to hear it from the horses mouth. So unless @Estarra and other admin want to declare that Makai speaks for them in an official manner, because Estarra could turn around and screw us all over and say, "Well I said 'Anyway, I pretty much agree with Makai's thinking on approaching the specifics.' and no one asked me personally." So I am asking for clarification. we have been screwed over before. why would we put ourselves in a position where that could happen again?
The thing is, we are all guessing and do not know.
Serenwilde may in fact be the most populous organisation in the game (and then it will be said it is not number but active fighters that count in events)
What i am happy to say (and it is not an attack on anyone) is that actually, we don't know - give us the numbers and we can chew over them. Without facts it is anecdote.
If by seeing people on the other side as part of the problem because they can not hold players, I would say yes they may be part of the problem - investigate and find out why
If it is players on either side that can not hold players, I would say yes they may be part of the problem - investigate and find out why
I would say if this game needs to be saved, someone should at least look at it. Build on the game's strengths, not weaknesses
I believe people are capable of having a whole conversation not just focusing on one point. What doesn't seem to happen is when personal attacks happen the person who initiates them isn't dealt with instead the thread is shut down. It just hurts the community discussion further. But that is not likely to change so I can see how silencing oneself to try and preserve what little conversation is being had is preferable. I just hope that one day actual conversation can evolve here without silly memes and snark (or shade as you kids call it) being thrown around, which is the real distraction.
However, that is how you stay in business. You cut the chaff from the wheat.
Any business model that starts with throwing away your more successful lines while doubling down on your least successful lines is going to fail.
Because clearly, the game is dying so might as well let the org that's killing it continue to do so. Just like if you get a broken leg, the solution is to cut it off and let you bleed to death.
"Why can't the other side hold players?" Well, it's definitely not the grief tactics one org that is perfect and blameless in every way uses on any person who dares to get involved in pk against them. It's definitely not the report wars. It's definitely not the refusal to interact with anyone on the other side, and instead continue to gaslight them at every opportunity.
The other side just needs to stop being so mean, ie, stop competing with the perfect org at all, give up and leave in frustration. Then everything will be perfect, and those left will be happy right up until the game shuts down. (It was probably the fault of the one or two mean people on the other side who stayed behind.)
2. Please name the list of successful online games you have managed. We need facts, not theorizing or emotions.
That said, it should be four orgs, not three. Three orgs doesn't work, especially in a game where the player base is so inclined to form lasting cliques.