I need to do some more testing to find the actual number, but with destruction scaling off intellect and the whips being static damage, trying to find the exact intellect amount the whips come out equal to Destro.
I might need to borrow you Chade, or more to the point your whip and your reimagination skill.
However, I will say that now that the numbers on whips have been adjusted, they're certainly worth the investment. Destruction has three advantages (before target vulnerability) going for it in PvE however.
1: It is affected by magic rune. 2: If you hold the war domoth, your damage is increased (seriously before this thread I never knew this. Huzzah for unintentional min-maxing) 3: It scales with intellect (see above.) This is also potentially a drawback, if you don't have enough int to hit the threshold where whips are assumed off then Destruction will have a lower base damage.
I'd personally* advise the Divinus whip followed by the Fire whip for this looking to make the investment. Divinus has a larger range of vulnerabilities to fire, and only one significant end game resistance. Fire wins out in a few areas, if you're looking to min/max, but by and large, if it has a fire weakness it tends to have some form of Divinus vulnerability too.
Overall this is a great improvement to what was a discrepancy in a game of have and have nots. Everyone now has an option open to them to bash at a comfortable speed, without being punished for the class they chose (Nihilists rejoice!) And I'm very happy to see this in the game, my thanks to Iosai for putting up with a lot of theorycraft talk and questions over the last 48 hours, and unearthing a few interesting things that have (external to whips) made bashing faster for most people.
*Disclaimer: This is without any knowledge of the next few bashing areas likely to exist. The cynical conclusion is that they're all going to be divinus/fire immune and fatally weak excorable/cold/ and something random like asphyxiation, just to mess with us X_X
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If bashing discrepancies across archetypes is truly a problem, the solution should not a pricey artifact.
Yes, the whips are neat. However, they only "fix" bashing (if we're looking at bashing as something that needs fixed) for the people who can afford them.
I'd normally agree with Kio but I will follow Morkarion in holding off judgement until after the overhaul.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order. Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
Personally, I'm hoping the whips will become the benchmark for class-based damage. I.e. a Mugwump Pyromancer would do more with their staffcast than a fire whip, but if they're going up against something fire-resistant, they'd be better off with a whip.
So now the new meta is to buy a whip to flay people with during fights?
Just spotted this.
And no, whips on release did less damage to players than they did to creatures. However when we threw some DMP at this they were still hitting for 1.1k to 1.3k on people before factoring in any racial malus. So the numbers in PvP got toned down further, these are primarily a bashing item.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Nihilist with a divinus whip. Sounds legit. (Thankyou thankyou for making it possible to create better bashing for those classes with 'unfortunate' damage types. *coughexcorablecough*)
I'm STILL doing about 1.1k worth of damage to players with the whip. <_< ...I get a total of about 30% boosted Divinus damage from tattoo, curio, and a certain skill in Aquachemantics.
I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
I'm STILL doing about 1.2k worth of damage to players with the whip. <_< ...I get a total of about 30% boosted Divinus damage from tattoo, curio, and a certain skill in Aquachemantics.
The Aquachem skill might be throwing it out of whack, who was your test subject?
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Simple enough: "Not even the <insert fancy word for divinus> is too powerful for the Taint! Indeed, I have overpowered it, and have tamed it to be used against the very fools that once held its powers as their own."
Oh, the test subject's me. Without any of my defenses up, aside from the usual passive sheens and globes, none of which effect how much damage I'd be taking from divinus sources. Would almost certainly go down if I used my nimbus enchantment. Not exactly the most scientific approach in the world, but it gets me the numbers immediately.
I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
Self inflicted damage is never accurate for testing purposes.
1.2k on zero base resist while you're boosted by 30% is a poor marker, test against someone with actual DMP and you'll find that number to be a lot lower.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Personally, I'm hoping the whips will become the benchmark for class-based damage. I.e. a Mugwump Pyromancer would do more with their staffcast than a fire whip, but if they're going up against something fire-resistant, they'd be better off with a whip.
Eh. Mages can already retune their staff to do a secondary source of damage. Probably would be best just to retune.
Personally, I'm hoping the whips will become the benchmark for class-based damage. I.e. a Mugwump Pyromancer would do more with their staffcast than a fire whip, but if they're going up against something fire-resistant, they'd be better off with a whip.
Eh. Mages can already retune their staff to do a secondary source of damage. Probably would be best just to retune.
It was mostly used as a general example instead of a specific one. Lots of classes are very restricted when it comes to bashing types (and mages are restricted to two or three).
Most classes are restricted to 2 or 3, I think the exceptions are certain types of Knights who get access to cutting + blunt + caster based skills + weapon runes.
The whip is useful for everyone, and puts people on equal footing (somewhat, there are a few exceptions to the rule) but certain classes will have gained more from this than others. Nihilists being the primary example that springs to mind.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I am just disappointed that this means Excorable-Divinus bashing will never be equal and the only solution implemented was a 200 dingbat artifact, instead of the obvious answer in just fixing the terrible spread of damage resistances.
Also, this helps Cacophony the most (50% excorable, 50% cutting, what a terrible bashing attack), moreso then Nihilists (50% poison/psychic wasn't bad).
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
You would definitely know a lot more then me, I basically gave up bashing when Excorable came out outside of the very few things that were weak to both poison/psychic or to one (abhorrences, bulls, kephera).
I guess I can just chalk that up to another poorly thought out implementation of the resistances/weaknesses.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Expensive looking at it on it's own, but then when you look at the price of other bashing based artifacts, crit runes, RoA, Life rune etc, it sits about the right price for this game's economy.
Personally I hope the overarching issue of damage types and bashing viability is addressed in the overhaul, and that the whips become something that is an optional to be optimal, and not the diehard essential it is for certain classes.
That said, Lirangsha was a positive step forward to creating areas that go against the typical grain of resistances for end game bashing, and I'm hoping the area that comes from this Grimbach plotline is another step forward in that trend. From someone who's been on both ends of the resistances shtick, I'm glad the admin are taking steps forward to address this situation, and that they continue to do so.
Too many people find bashing (and to that point levelling) a slow monotonous grind, having a solid PvE core (especially when PK really does make a difference between Demi and non Demi) to fuel your PvP is the basis of getting customers to not only look around but stay for the fish.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Expensive looking at it on it's own, but then when you look at the price of other bashing based artifacts, crit runes, RoA, Life rune etc, it sits about the right price for this game's economy.
I wouldn't lump those in with bashing based artifacts, as both of them have significant value in PvP.
I can't even begin to tell you the number of times RoA has saved my butt against monks.
A lot of people buy the RoA for PvE purposes though, purely because of low class mitigation and RoA + Bodyguard keeps a lot of squishier classes alive.
Yes they have PK applications, but there's a lot of dual purpose artifacts. I was talking really about ones people buy for PvE without making that an exclusivity.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
RoA and Life Runes aren't only bashing artifacts. I'll give you Crit Runes, though I always felt those too were a bit more expensive than they should be. The prices people paid for the Level 4 crit runes still astound me.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
You know.... I got to thinking about something. Why is it these got added, but artisans keep getting turned down when we ask for display cases, wall features besides sconces (or even longer lasting sconces), and other items and Estarra calls them "fluff"?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm not certain why people got the impression that Excorable-Divinus bashing will never be equal because whip artifacts were released. I never once heard an admin say "Oh well, let's just say screw it and make an artifact instead."
The fact is that areas take an extremely long time to build, even when you have time to dedicate too it. A "quick" area takes about 3-6 months. Most areas take up to a year or longer to be built. Excorable-weak bashing areas (or any type of bashing area) don't magically appear and just because whips are a thing doesn't mean there will never be excorable-weak areas.
Comments
I might need to borrow you Chade, or more to the point your whip and your reimagination skill.
However, I will say that now that the numbers on whips have been adjusted, they're certainly worth the investment. Destruction has three advantages (before target vulnerability) going for it in PvE however.
1: It is affected by magic rune.
2: If you hold the war domoth, your damage is increased (seriously before this thread I never knew this. Huzzah for unintentional min-maxing)
3: It scales with intellect (see above.) This is also potentially a drawback, if you don't have enough int to hit the threshold where whips are assumed off then Destruction will have a lower base damage.
I'd personally* advise the Divinus whip followed by the Fire whip for this looking to make the investment. Divinus has a larger range of vulnerabilities to fire, and only one significant end game resistance. Fire wins out in a few areas, if you're looking to min/max, but by and large, if it has a fire weakness it tends to have some form of Divinus vulnerability too.
Overall this is a great improvement to what was a discrepancy in a game of have and have nots. Everyone now has an option open to them to bash at a comfortable speed, without being punished for the class they chose (Nihilists rejoice!) And I'm very happy to see this in the game, my thanks to Iosai for putting up with a lot of theorycraft talk and questions over the last 48 hours, and unearthing a few interesting things that have (external to whips) made bashing faster for most people.
*Disclaimer: This is without any knowledge of the next few bashing areas likely to exist. The cynical conclusion is that they're all going to be divinus/fire immune and fatally weak excorable/cold/ and something random like asphyxiation, just to mess with us X_X
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Yes, the whips are neat. However, they only "fix" bashing (if we're looking at bashing as something that needs fixed) for the people who can afford them.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order.
Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
I only have the numbers for Destruction.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
And no, whips on release did less damage to players than they did to creatures. However when we threw some DMP at this they were still hitting for 1.1k to 1.3k on people before factoring in any racial malus. So the numbers in PvP got toned down further, these are primarily a bashing item.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
That's going to take some explaining
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
It was mostly used as a general example instead of a specific one. Lots of classes are very restricted when it comes to bashing types (and mages are restricted to two or three).
The whip is useful for everyone, and puts people on equal footing (somewhat, there are a few exceptions to the rule) but certain classes will have gained more from this than others. Nihilists being the primary example that springs to mind.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Excoro/cutting is actually really good on Lirangsha.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Personally I hope the overarching issue of damage types and bashing viability is addressed in the overhaul, and that the whips become something that is an optional to be optimal, and not the diehard essential it is for certain classes.
That said, Lirangsha was a positive step forward to creating areas that go against the typical grain of resistances for end game bashing, and I'm hoping the area that comes from this Grimbach plotline is another step forward in that trend. From someone who's been on both ends of the resistances shtick, I'm glad the admin are taking steps forward to address this situation, and that they continue to do so.
Too many people find bashing (and to that point levelling) a slow monotonous grind, having a solid PvE core (especially when PK really does make a difference between Demi and non Demi) to fuel your PvP is the basis of getting customers to not only look around but stay for the fish.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Yes they have PK applications, but there's a lot of dual purpose artifacts. I was talking really about ones people buy for PvE without making that an exclusivity.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The fact is that areas take an extremely long time to build, even when you have time to dedicate too it. A "quick" area takes about 3-6 months. Most areas take up to a year or longer to be built. Excorable-weak bashing areas (or any type of bashing area) don't magically appear and just because whips are a thing doesn't mean there will never be excorable-weak areas.