EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
We can all talk on CT and see each other on CWHO, but that doesn't increase our interactions with each other. How would a super-guild do this differently (that's not sarcastic, I really am interested)?
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That's probably because CT is generally a very public conversation place, that's not super conducive to RP. With all the emphasis on guilds, I find that most people do more in-depth RP (and look for more in-depth rp) with people in their guild. The guild is generally a place where you have a lot in common with the other members, and have a lot of easy ways to springboard 'introductory RP', new and ice-breaker-y interactions. However, that commonality is enforced via skills currently. In a 'super-guild' type system, it might be effected or limited by skills, but would (depending on how they are organized) have some other guiding perogative.
So, a simplistic example of a possible scheme. Let's say Serenwilde is split into three 'factions', the Harmonists, the Isolationists, Wilderists. Harmonists believe that the best way for Seren to survive is for the forest to ally with and placate outsiders, like the cities. Isolationists want us to split off from the world and try to be as neutral as possible to avoid being attacked. The Wilderists believe we must take any chance to strike out at the cities (which can include allying with other nations and cities). You choose one to join. Now, you will be in a faction with people who have different skills, but are interested in the same political/philisophical leanings.
In this kind of example, you can make a subsidiary organization that's for people with the same skills (or they can do it via a clan) if you want a 'secrets of x skillset' type RP, but those would not have the political structures of a guild, and there wouldn't be as many penalties for changing skills - you wouldn't have to leave your primary social group.
This particular way of splitting things up ultimately doesn't agree with me for a few reasons, but it's an example of how you can organize the social/philosophical groups on social/philosophical lines instead of by mechanics. If you make the system one where people who are likely to want to interact are divided into groups with other people who are likely to want to interact, you have more interaction all around.
- Have off-plane guild/city members show on GWHO/CWHO with an 'Off-plane' flag.
There's a large problem with this, though (and it's one that actually bugs me quite a bit). There are players* in the game who log on and just idle in a manse for hours at a time (not anywhere near their computer during that entire period). The person is "online" but might as well not be. It's kind of frustrating for anyone who is trying to deal with them. It's even worse when they're doing it on Prime, but even when they are in manses it's completely hit-or-miss as to whether they're nearby.
There are actual mechanical drives to do this, too. Staying online means you don't lose your defenses (and for certain classes especially, that's a big deal). Not just that, but now there is encouragement to install a remote control system on your machine and get an app which you can log in with every hour (for that chance at a baking bit). Before you ask, "Who would do that?," I will say that I know at least two individuals who would (and I'm sure there are more).
People who are online but AFK really shouldn't be counted as being online IMO. They are adding nothing worthwhile to the gaming experience for anyone at all.
---------------------------------
* Yes. As of recently, I am now one of the people who drive me batty. Curios are terribly rude.
We can all talk on CT and see each other on CWHO, but that doesn't increase our interactions with each other. How would a super-guild do this differently (that's not sarcastic, I really am interested)?
In my own experience with the super-guilds concept, it doesn't. I heard all the same sorts of justifications and reasons for it from admin and players before it was done, but afterwards it was just a lot of people who didn't speak to each other OR share the same skills. That, and it did dilute roleplay to have people grouped together without a narrow and specific guild-cause(and I know, everyone said it wouldn't, and that people would adjust- I haven't seen it yet). What it tended to do instead was make all the guilds in a particular city identical to each other, right down to the help files... no thanks.
It's certainly a conversation worth having and doing something about, and I agree that there's not enough activity in some guilds. I just really don't believe that combining guilds is a good solution.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Not that anyone's suggesting it, but Achaea-style multi classing isn't the answer, for sure. It worked phenomenally well for one or two Houses, but was such a miserable failure everywhere else that they hamfistedly reverted to a more guild-like structure.
- Have off-plane guild/city members show on GWHO/CWHO with an 'Off-plane' flag.
There's a large problem with this, though (and it's one that actually bugs me quite a bit). There are players* in the game who log on and just idle in a manse for hours at a time (not anywhere near their computer during that entire period). The person is "online" but might as well not be. It's kind of frustrating for anyone who is trying to deal with them. It's even worse when they're doing it on Prime, but even when they are in manses it's completely hit-or-miss as to whether they're nearby.
There are actual mechanical drives to do this, too. Staying online means you don't lose your defenses (and for certain classes especially, that's a big deal). Not just that, but now there is encouragement to install a remote control system on your machine and get an app which you can log in with every hour (for that chance at a baking bit). Before you ask, "Who would do that?," I will say that I know at least two individuals who would (and I'm sure there are more).
People who are online but AFK really shouldn't be counted as being online IMO. They are adding nothing worthwhile to the gaming experience for anyone at all.
---------------------------------
* Yes. As of recently, I am now one of the people who drive me batty. Curios are terribly rude.
Well the suggestions were more to improve the perception of community, since first impressions matter. But yes, interaction (or lack of) will always be what is critical in determining whether players stay or leave.
The only thing I can input into this discussion is why I left the game. The two reasons why I dropped this game were the "courthouse" of envoys having a say on guild skills and people constantly moving cities to join the new "OP" guild of the era. It killed the immersion for me because of the mercenary mindset of most combatants. Despite all the oaths they took when joining the many guilds they were a part of, they would just pick up and move when something better came along. You basically just had to hope your friends wouldn't be taking off and if they did you were left with two choices: Move away from your city too or stay behind and be crushed in combat because you were part of a now irrelevant org. I guess there just wasn't enough social stability to keep playing for me and now it appears as though the problems are worse in that area.
As someone who is relatively new compared to the "big names" of Lusternia who are extremely powerful and staples to the game, the guild roleplay is the only reason I have stayed so long and wanted to be a part of everything. I've been a guild administrator, held other positions, published, invested in credits, and all the things that I would think count as being quite active in the game. I also have worked quite a bit with novices in the Shadowdancers in different capacities.
Culture really is everything. The guilds that grab are the guilds that are rich in history, lore, and that have well designed advancement schemes and at least one active and growth-minded person in the triad of leadership. My fear is that making everything city/commune central and dissolving even a tiny bit the culture of strong guilds would do more harm than good. Guilds that have members that stay off-plane and AFK constantly are their own gravediggers.
If there is one thing I would suggest it is that new players should be reminded and made to understand that combat is not the only way to make it in Lusternia. I do not enjoy combat and if it were not for some amazing guild members who let me know that I could do great things without mastering the extremely complex (and often expensive) mechanics of being a combatant-player, I would never have invested what I have.
- Have off-plane guild/city members show on GWHO/CWHO with an 'Off-plane' flag.
Would like an opt-out option, as if I'm in my manse, I'm trying to avoid being seen, if not by everyone in the city, then certain people.
Except GMCP comm.channel.players already shows you. If people don't use it, that's another matter. I love my channel who script that shows me everyone in city/guild that can hear me if I speak on GT/CT
EDIT: And yes, I can see you when you're lurking in your manse because you don't have a gem of cloaking, so you show up on clans too.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
- Have off-plane guild/city members show on GWHO/CWHO with an 'Off-plane' flag.
Would like an opt-out option, as if I'm in my manse, I'm trying to avoid being seen, if not by everyone in the city, then certain people.
Except GMCP comm.channel.players already shows you. If people don't use it, that's another matter. I love my channel who script that shows me everyone in city/guild that can hear me if I speak on GT/CT
EDIT: And yes, I can see you when you're lurking in your manse because you don't have a gem of cloaking, so you show up on clans too.
All of that requires a script to be used or the html5 client, neither of which the people I'm avoiding use. Still doesn't change my wish for an opt-out option.
- Have off-plane guild/city members show on GWHO/CWHO with an 'Off-plane' flag.
There's a large problem with this, though (and it's one that actually bugs me quite a bit). There are players* in the game who log on and just idle in a manse for hours at a time (not anywhere near their computer during that entire period). The person is "online" but might as well not be. It's kind of frustrating for anyone who is trying to deal with them. It's even worse when they're doing it on Prime, but even when they are in manses it's completely hit-or-miss as to whether they're nearby.
There are actual mechanical drives to do this, too. Staying online means you don't lose your defenses (and for certain classes especially, that's a big deal). Not just that, but now there is encouragement to install a remote control system on your machine and get an app which you can log in with every hour (for that chance at a baking bit). Before you ask, "Who would do that?," I will say that I know at least two individuals who would (and I'm sure there are more).
People who are online but AFK really shouldn't be counted as being online IMO. They are adding nothing worthwhile to the gaming experience for anyone at all.
---------------------------------
* Yes. As of recently, I am now one of the people who drive me batty. Curios are terribly rude.
Maybe we can have a way of opting out of being shown online? I don't afk for long periods of time, but there have been times when I sign on and stay in my manse to do some reading or some writing or to test things out and don't want others to think I'm around at the time.
I strongly disagree to any opt outs, purely on the basis that in a game that is designed around social interaction, group play and co-ordination, there are people who already sit with all the channels turned off unless they need something from people. If you give people an opt out they're going to turn it on, never turn it off and completely ruin the entire point of such a change.
Giving more people the ability to simply hide away and give a false pretense of numbers isn't going to help new people in any way at all. I'm not saying everyone has a duty to novice care, but when there's people who switch all personal/guild/commune&city tells off and create inner circle societies in clans, it's not exactly the atmosphere that's going to encourage new people to stay is it?
We need to be less secretive, not giving people ways to be more.
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of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Just make it so only elected officials, minisrers, secretaries etc. show offplane and such. They chose to be leaders, so they ought to accept that responsibility and allow everyone to know they are at least logged in. Dont want to be bothered? Telloff ortell them you are busy or step down and let someone who actually cares do the job
That has absolutely no bearing on when someone logs on for cooking curios whatsoever- baking while at work because for whatever reason they are designed for remote-login-baking does not mean I am around. Neither does it mean I am not doing what I'm elected for when I am actually at the computer.
And yes, I've sent multiple emails on the subject. I've basically been told that I'm expected to do this. So.
Just make it so only elected officials, minisrers, secretaries etc. show offplane and such. They chose to be leaders, so they ought to accept that responsibility and allow everyone to know they are at least logged in. Dont want to be bothered? Telloff ortell them you are busy or step down and let someone who actually cares do the job
There are parts of your job you must do without being disturbed, the alternative is to just not log in at all, which that option would not have made any visible difference toward. I'm not sure if this happens to anyone else, but there are times I sign in from places I cannot do stuff from and want to handle some housekeeping matters only to have someone immediately somehow know I'm online and asking me for something. I can tell them I'm busy, but it always leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. If need be, conditions can be set such as "if you move from this room, it automatically falls" or restricting it to manses or something.
See that's what TELLSOFF is for. There's really no justification for leaders to hide from who/cwho/gwho at all. Cooking curios? You have no obligation to do those.. that is your personal choice. You DO have an obligation as a leader to be sonewhat available/visible for the people counting on your leadership that you asked them to trust in you with. Writing files? Tellsoff. You are busy writing files, not chatting in tells. If telling them you are busy bothers you, that is another problem completely unrelated to this topic
See that's what TELLSOFF is for. There's really no justification for leaders to hide from who/cwho/gwho at all. Cooking curios? You have no obligation to do those.. that is your personal choice. You DO have an obligation as a leader to be sonewhat available/visible for the people counting on your leadership that you asked them to trust in you with. Writing files? Tellsoff. You are busy writing files, not chatting in tells. If telling them you are busy bothers you, that is another problem completely unrelated to this topic
The issue brought up was that visible people who are not actually available for any sort of interaction at all are falsely boosting the 'online' count and frustrating people. You do have a responsibility to do your job, but I don't see where you're coming from with being visible when you're not able to do it at the time. Being visible in and of itself is of no benefit to anyone and I doubt that's what you were elected for. If someone's not doing their job or showing any presence period, this option does nothing to make that worse. The solution to that is to just replace them and -that- is a different line of conversation.
For example, there have been times I've wanted to contact X about his opinions on Y things and I kept getting "X is not accepting any tells right now" messages, despite being able to see him online. It becomes annoying because I'm constantly trying back and I never really know when he'll be around.
Since people like to generally AFK in manses, maybe an artifact that makes you fully invisible / possibly even not able to be contacted that can be applied to a single room box? That gives those who want to log in to have access to things that they cannot access when not logged in a means to do so, without them inflating count. It also restricts them to staying in that room, from where they can't do much, so it isn't OP in any sense.
Combine that then with people being visible even when off plane (except for cloak gem, that needs to stay as it is), basically the whole list that @Ushaara made. That means there is a much higher visibility for those who are around and even solves frustration that you feel bad when you unintentionally are hiding. Seems like a good middle ground to me.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order. Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
See that's what TELLSOFF is for. There's really no justification for leaders to hide from who/cwho/gwho at all. Cooking curios? You have no obligation to do those.. that is your personal choice. You DO have an obligation as a leader to be sonewhat available/visible for the people counting on your leadership that you asked them to trust in you with. Writing files? Tellsoff. You are busy writing files, not chatting in tells. If telling them you are busy bothers you, that is another problem completely unrelated to this topic
Rivius has got it exactly. Knowing that an individual is online tells you absolutely nothing... because they may very well not be there at all.
I would actually personally prefer not knowing that said person is "online"- because then I'm wasting my time trying to interact with them when they are not home. That's far more frustrating to me than not knowing who the person is who is off-plane.
Since people like to generally AFK in manses, maybe an artifact that makes you fully invisible / possibly even not able to be contacted that can be applied to a single room box? That gives those who want to log in to have access to things that they cannot access when not logged in a means to do so, without them inflating count. It also restricts them to staying in that room, from where they can't do much, so it isn't OP in any sense.
Combine that then with people being visible even when off plane (except for cloak gem, that needs to stay as it is), basically the whole list that @Ushaara made. That means there is a much higher visibility for those who are around and even solves frustration that you feel bad when you unintentionally are hiding. Seems like a good middle ground to me.
That's indeed an option, but that would be a credit-based version of the opt-out (which I think is part of what this discussion is going on about). It's a decent middle ground to me, though. I'm just not sure that they want to go quite that far in encouraging afk-idling (selling an artifact designed entirely for it).
I'm not saying this is a black and white issue. I understand no one can be on top of their game 24/7, and sometimes even as a leader you just want a breather or time to pursue your curio obsession. That's fine, but I don't think manses/planes were designed with hiding in mind. We're talking about novices here, not making either of you happy. Even if you're busy, a novice seeing you online off-plane is much better than them not seeing anyone alive for hours. Now if people are perma-afk, it's a whole other thing.
As a community I feel like we're excusing AFKing as a normal behaviour too much, to the point where you're even suggesting admin avoid implementing a good suggestion just so you and novices are not subject to people's perma-afking. HELP AFK sounds pretty serious. I don't see it being enforced too much but I imagine it's because it's extra work, so unless you issue someone, it's not looked at.
It would be great if we didn't just rely on the admin to enforce this but actually act upon it ourselves. If your someone X always has tells off, leave them a message, there's no need to keep trying to send them tells. If they don't get back to you and keep on idling, ignore them and don't take their input. Be angry with them, sulk at them, throw a tantrum, badmouth them to others. Actually have IC consequences for them.
"I would actually personally prefer not knowing that said person is "online"- because then I'm wasting my time trying to interact with them when they are not home." - when this is a justification, we have a big problem.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I've been getting at with my posts, Revan. I see it as a big problem. I see it as one that is not being diminished, but instead exacerbated, as time goes on and more things are introduced which blatantly encourage such activities.
It's something that I dislike greatly. I would prefer that we not have to deal with long AFKs, I would prefer that there were not mechanical benefits provided to encourage it. I would love it if defenses did not die upon logging out, if the hourly curio thing was not made a once-every-hour-grind-fest but instead something more reasonable. Removing or ameliorating reasons for AFK idling would be swell. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I have an email in my inbox that specifically says such, in fact.
As such we have to deal with the game as it appears to be intended, and that is a game with AFK character shells who can provide no interaction.
PS: Please note that I'm not only frustrated with it, I am also part of the problem. Self-admittedly. I wish I wasn't, but it's the only way that I can really get anywhere with these cooking curios (which I want, but do not have 1200 credits I am really able to throw into them). I'm not railing against any specific individual here, but instead expressing my displeasure for the way the system is set up in general which encourages (and rewards) the behaviour.
Sure, part of the problem might be on the admin side (doubt they mean it that way), but I'm pretty sure it's players fault too. Cooking curios reward those who are around more but it's your decision whether or not you participate in it to the crazy extent that you do. A big problem is people not being able to, or not wanting to, let go of things that they can let go of. You want the curios, you don't need them.
You can choose to be bothered by having to put up defs after relog, but you can also sigh and just get on with it. Power is not that big a deal anymore, not like when the game opened up. I imagine defs fall off because of database stuff? Would it help if defs didn't take power to put up? Or are the 2 minutes people spend doing it is such a PITA that they'd rather perma-idle than press a button for a script to automatically put them up?
We could ask for things like that but again, it's a choice to be bothered by it and idle for this purpose. I'd rather that combat overhaul get done than petition for stuff to get changed to cut down on people's bad habits or issues that have nothing to do with the game.
Pardon, but power is a big deal to some of us. It takes over 50 power for me to def up when I log in. That is 25% reserves. That's a big deal, if you ask me.
If it's taking you 50 power to def-up every time you log in (not including lasting defs like Lichdom that stay with you even through logout), then that's a problem and numbers ought to be looked at. I never had to spend that much power to def up and I'd walk around with 60-ish defs all the time. Could you detail the defs that are costing you all that power?
Faeconverge saves times and costs 1 extra power (three commune specific fae + snoefaasia = 4p), but must be cast on Ethereal.
Channels must be cast on Ethereal, or costs 10p.
Totems Nature must be used to bond with every spirit available. Bonding them one-by-one allows you to save power but results in missing important defenses (as most totems have restrictions as to when they can be summoned, but Nature bypasses all restrictions).
Note: None of these defenses stay upon logging out. Many of them fade upon death. Almost all drop in the case of a disconnect.
Yea.. that's pretty crazy. A nihilist friend of mine says that they top out their defs at 20-30 power, using all necessary skills. That seems like a pretty stark contrast to wiccans, and that ought to be looked at on the "scale wiccan power costs down" side of things. I could be wrong though, as my friend isn't a combatant, so they may be missing a few things.. but they are pretty sure.
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In this kind of example, you can make a subsidiary organization that's for people with the same skills (or they can do it via a clan) if you want a 'secrets of x skillset' type RP, but those would not have the political structures of a guild, and there wouldn't be as many penalties for changing skills - you wouldn't have to leave your primary social group.
This particular way of splitting things up ultimately doesn't agree with me for a few reasons, but it's an example of how you can organize the social/philosophical groups on social/philosophical lines instead of by mechanics. If you make the system one where people who are likely to want to interact are divided into groups with other people who are likely to want to interact, you have more interaction all around.
There are actual mechanical drives to do this, too. Staying online means you don't lose your defenses (and for certain classes especially, that's a big deal). Not just that, but now there is encouragement to install a remote control system on your machine and get an app which you can log in with every hour (for that chance at a baking bit). Before you ask, "Who would do that?," I will say that I know at least two individuals who would (and I'm sure there are more).
People who are online but AFK really shouldn't be counted as being online IMO. They are adding nothing worthwhile to the gaming experience for anyone at all.
---------------------------------
* Yes. As of recently, I am now one of the people who drive me batty. Curios are terribly rude.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Culture really is everything. The guilds that grab are the guilds that are rich in history, lore, and that have well designed advancement schemes and at least one active and growth-minded person in the triad of leadership. My fear is that making everything city/commune central and dissolving even a tiny bit the culture of strong guilds would do more harm than good. Guilds that have members that stay off-plane and AFK constantly are their own gravediggers.
If there is one thing I would suggest it is that new players should be reminded and made to understand that combat is not the only way to make it in Lusternia. I do not enjoy combat and if it were not for some amazing guild members who let me know that I could do great things without mastering the extremely complex (and often expensive) mechanics of being a combatant-player, I would never have invested what I have.
EDIT: And yes, I can see you when you're lurking in your manse because you don't have a gem of cloaking, so you show up on clans too.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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Giving more people the ability to simply hide away and give a false pretense of numbers isn't going to help new people in any way at all. I'm not saying everyone has a duty to novice care, but when there's people who switch all personal/guild/commune&city tells off and create inner circle societies in clans, it's not exactly the atmosphere that's going to encourage new people to stay is it?
We need to be less secretive, not giving people ways to be more.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
And yes, I've sent multiple emails on the subject. I've basically been told that I'm expected to do this. So.
Combine that then with people being visible even when off plane (except for cloak gem, that needs to stay as it is), basically the whole list that @Ushaara made. That means there is a much higher visibility for those who are around and even solves frustration that you feel bad when you unintentionally are hiding. Seems like a good middle ground to me.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order.
Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
I would actually personally prefer not knowing that said person is "online"- because then I'm wasting my time trying to interact with them when they are not home. That's far more frustrating to me than not knowing who the person is who is off-plane.
As a community I feel like we're excusing AFKing as a normal behaviour too much, to the point where you're even suggesting admin avoid implementing a good suggestion just so you and novices are not subject to people's perma-afking. HELP AFK sounds pretty serious. I don't see it being enforced too much but I imagine it's because it's extra work, so unless you issue someone, it's not looked at.
It would be great if we didn't just rely on the admin to enforce this but actually act upon it ourselves. If your someone X always has tells off, leave them a message, there's no need to keep trying to send them tells. If they don't get back to you and keep on idling, ignore them and don't take their input. Be angry with them, sulk at them, throw a tantrum, badmouth them to others. Actually have IC consequences for them.
"I would actually personally prefer not knowing that said person is "online"- because then I'm wasting my time trying to interact with them when they are not home." - when this is a justification, we have a big problem.
It's something that I dislike greatly. I would prefer that we not have to deal with long AFKs, I would prefer that there were not mechanical benefits provided to encourage it. I would love it if defenses did not die upon logging out, if the hourly curio thing was not made a once-every-hour-grind-fest but instead something more reasonable. Removing or ameliorating reasons for AFK idling would be swell. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I have an email in my inbox that specifically says such, in fact.
As such we have to deal with the game as it appears to be intended, and that is a game with AFK character shells who can provide no interaction.
PS: Please note that I'm not only frustrated with it, I am also part of the problem. Self-admittedly. I wish I wasn't, but it's the only way that I can really get anywhere with these cooking curios (which I want, but do not have 1200 credits I am really able to throw into them). I'm not railing against any specific individual here, but instead expressing my displeasure for the way the system is set up in general which encourages (and rewards) the behaviour.