- Lachesis (I think?) might point to Mucka and Bolt instead, as those quests are far more straightforward. Instead of "kill gnome, hope for chain to drop, give chain to Finko, hope the portal isn't open" it'd be "kill gnome, give gnome to mucka, profit".
- Perhaps putting in learning your skills somewhere near the top. They'll come in handy all through the tour, both for killing finks/gnomes and the collegium.
- "Atropos
of the Shears says, "Lusternia is an expansive world, almost impossible
for one as young as you to navigate successfully. But you are not alone -
let Me teach you the gift of pathfinding."". But Lachesis already covered that with pathfinding to the quests.
- Including all the Collegium tasks makes the intro feel a bit too long, and it probably makes newbies think that the collegium is something that has to be done right away. While the collegium is certainly helpful, perhaps cutting that bit out of the tour might be good, and point to it after the tour is over?
- Interacting with guides through tells as was pointed out above would remove the confusion of other people thinking you're insane (or perhaps worse, people ignoring what newbies say as they think it's part of the tour).
Other than that, I think it's a very good tour. Sure, there's polishing to be done, but it is very nice!
I don't think that the collegium tasks are a bad idea being in the intro -- actually, it's quite the opposite. By doing these tasks right away, the newbie will be learning key aspects of the game/org, their skills (though I agree with some points that their skills should be one of the first things that they learn) etc. To me, this is a lot better since they don't have to look a HELP WHATNOW or have someone explain that there are quests that can be done, which they might not have known that they exist if they were not told.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
edited August 2013
I finally finished the new intro, and I am not a fan.
First, I (accidentally) ran through the old intro I--this happened because Clotho never appeared, and the old intro started with Lachesis. Oh well. So, I ran through that to refresh my memory of how the old intro went.
Then, I created a new character and ran the new intro.
The new intro was really confusing. I knew from reading the posts here that I could click on each of the possible responses, but if I hadn't read them, I would not have known to click on them. I have a feeling that this may not work in other clients, so a hint mentioning that you can CLICK or SAY each response would be appreciated.
As has been mentioned, the Fates Quest doesn't actually work until the end. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't complete the task.
Having the Basin-wide ambient messages interrupt the intro really threw me off.
There is no separation between optional responses/commands and required ones. I sorta bumbled about until Clotho magically disappeared and Lachesis appeared--I, too, didn't get to test all of Clotho's responses because I hit the magical required ones before hitting the rest. And then, I didn't know that going to Newton was required until I went.
In the middle of talking with Lachesis, the shadow appeared. It didn't seem to be connected to anything I said or did, it just showed up and I had to kill it. Seemed pointless, given no context. Same thing when it appeared in Newton
I reached numerous points where I couldn't do anything more. I had to complete a quest, but don't remember being told that.
Having to complete collegium quests in order to fully finish the intro makes the intro much, much longer and more complicated. The line between when the intro is over is heavily blurred, even though it has an "end." Once the collegium quests start, it stops being an introduction, since at least one of the collegium quests is out of the reach of newbies (they need help from someone bigger and stronger)--and if no one is around, then a newbie can't finish the introduction.
I think the idea of putting the collegium tasks in the intro is not a bad idea. The implementation is just too patchwork. If the collegium was a place that only newbies could enter and interact with, that might make it easier. Right now, it feels really out of place.
The intro looks like it can be done in any order. This is not the case. For example, I exited the Portal, then didn't know how to proceed. I was told to do the collegium tasks on the newbie channel. When I did those, I didn't know what to do next, so on a whim, went to Newton. Then, I found out that I should have gone there much earlier on. Basically, all of my interactions with the Fate Guides came in the wrong places, and my experience was really disjointed, out of place, and bad.
Overall, I don't like this new intro. It gets an "A" for the amount of information it conveys--it covers things that Newbies often don't know about. But it feels like it wasn't put together very well. Progression is muddled, things pop in and pop out, it's difficult to know where you are in it. Basically, it's a LOT more confusing for Newbies than the current one. If I didn't want the 10 bound credits at the end, I wouldn't have stuck with it. I don't want to spend over an hour in just an intro unless there's a reason (and it did take me that long with all the collegium quests). The old intro was paltry, but it did its purpose--it led newbies through what they needed to know in an orderly fashion, then passed things on to the cities/communes and the collegiums. This one... I don't know what it does.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Oh, and since I forgot about it in the list above:
- (Newbie): Barley says, "I am new in the realm and need help." Frankly, when they are asked to say that, they don't actually need help. It's awesome that they learn that the newbie channel exists and how to use it, but I feel people will just start ignoring that message (and other messages sounding like it) "because it's part of the intro", whether or not the newbie needs help or not. I feel it should be a more neutral message (although I can't think of one off-hand).
BTW, there's an update in character creation! I think it's a lot smoother.
We've done a few tweaks based on feedback. Some of the questions you can ask the guides were purposefully persistent (like how to use help on each guide) on the assumption that some newbies may forget that information. Just because it gets flashed to a newbie once, doesn't necessarily mean they will remember!
Alright, I've another to add to the list, that seems to be a thing for others too is that some of us already have the personal journal, which is what I believe we receive when we go to the room off the Ackleberry road and SEARCH?
Wyrm Gantros, Ward of the Wyrd says, "I have heard rumours of a rift where I can store things. Can
you tell me more?"
I have to resist the urge to answer these newbies, because I know if they were a true newbie, having six people and one NPC giving you an answer would be confusing.
Maybe you could make the command be SAY TO <guide> I have heard rumours... and have them speaking with the guide be instanced? Better yet, give it a generic message: You see Gantros speak to the faint outline of a mysterious, robed figure.
4
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Every newbie I've encountered so far that has gone through the new introduction has been completely lost.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
BTW, we can't "instance" the says at this time. I know it may be irksome but something we'll have to get used to.
How about using tells? Is there something limiting that as well?
No, I don't think that would work either, sorry. Not everyone will use html client so it has to use keywords and I think it looks clunky for newbies if the says are turned to tells. It's more important that the tour looks good from a newbie standpoint than for others. Again, something we'll just have to live with.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Every newbie I've encountered so far that has gone through the new introduction has been completely lost.
That's odd since any newbie through the new introduction must be an experienced player! It's not live yet!
Newbie was the wrong word--every novice character I've talked to who is going through the new intro (I can tell because they keep talking to their guides) tells me that they are confused.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I have to agree that in its current state it is a bit confusing. I'll play it through again over the weekend with a fresh (and non-stressed) mind, and try to keep a log and point things out then. It has a really solid foundation though; I think most of it can be fixed by polishing the wordings.
BTW, we can't "instance" the says at this time. I know it may be irksome but something we'll have to get used to.
How about using tells? Is there something limiting that as well?
No, I don't think that would work either, sorry. Not everyone will use html client so it has to use keywords and I think it looks clunky for newbies if the says are turned to tells. It's more important that the tour looks good from a newbie standpoint than for others. Again, something we'll just have to live with.
It's understandable that certain mechanical limitations exist, however it's not just we experienced players who would benefit from not being able to hear the newbies talk to their guides. Newer players (who players with lower capabilities of higher understanding - which exist [thought mostly because of language barriers]) who want to try to be helpful (especially since its a good way to be rewarded with favours!) might get confused and try to start helping newbies in the tutorial.
What if the guides were to send the newbies on a quest. The newbie's guide would be in a room that only newbies can enter (and have a unique teleport option to return them to their current guide). While in the room, the newbie could talk to the guide using says and keywords, but once they embark on their quest, they would get helpful reminders on their current quest. When finished, they would return to their guide in the newbieroom, who would congratulate them and send them off on another quest?
I have to agree that in its current state it is a bit confusing. I'll play it through again over the weekend with a fresh (and non-stressed) mind, and try to keep a log and point things out then. It has a really solid foundation though; I think most of it can be fixed by polishing the wordings.
That'd be great! We'd appreciate suggestions on polishing the text. Please be specific when offering suggestions!
Hello, I've run into a problem. I've got my journal already - I've had it since the Portal of Fate, and I've not been told to do the homestead-quest at any point. I've done everything else though.
When I GREET GUIDE, I have these options:
You greet Atropos of the Shears with a sincere smile.
Atropos of the Shears says, "Why don't you try to read it?"
[HINT]: Type READ JOURNAL to see what is written within it.
You see nothing written there.
-
And that's it. Nothing happens.
Edit: Turns out I need to go to the ruins on Ackleberry road - but no where at all in the tutorial was I told to go there, or how to get there. I asked on Newbie why it wasn't working and was told my Ssaliss to go there!
You should've gotten a quest that lead you there. Dunno why you didn't get that one though... Perhaps something went wonky with you getting the journal right away?
Out of curiosity, did you go to the new intro straight away, or did you do some of the old intro first (perhaps up to the point where you got the pack)?
I'll hit the tour again a second time probably some time this evening. I'm going to use Mudlet this time so I can easily log things, and then pick through the log for suggestions and comments. Also going to try and go out of order on the things that further advance the system since I want to see all the content this go round. A suggestion, like others have made, is to consider putting the required have to do options into a different color, and let newbies know about this difference as soon as they start the new intro. Or, put the required items at the bottom. I know I just started from the top and worked my way down, and I imagine that's how most folks will approach something like this.
Well, I'm going to run through it a second time at some point or another to get more detailed feedback, but I really didn't have a great first impression with it. I like the general idea of moving the intro into the open world, but the interactions with the fates feel very...mechanical, stiff and like a shopping list of items. It's very important, when establishing an introduction, that the player is immediately hit with the rich themes and world of lusternia. The entire beginning should have some more carefully written prose and vivid imagery to make someone think 'Hey, this is really kinda cool!'. This is your first and maybe last shot and getting a completely new person's interest.
Mechanically, I didn't like how it was executed. Maybe give a brief, though well written intro into who these fates are and what just happened with the portal of fate. It's briefly explained but I'm not sure it's enough to work with RP-wise.
I didn't like the stiff shopping list of items that the fates had for you, nor that you had to constantly greet them. I also admit having trouble when I first, first started in knowing that I needed to go down the list of suggestions. I think having them explicitly give you tasks to perform step-by-step is honestly the better route, though that's just my own opinion.
There were some specific things I think were bugs/design issues:
1) The teleport thing was listed as a task, but every time I teleported to the newton caverns, it failed to clear it off the list. Not sure if that was a bug.
2) It seems some things aren't required to move onto the next fate, so making that a bit clearer is a good idea.
Also, couldn't we combine the shadow encounters?
Those are my initial thoughts. It's a good idea overall and I think the only thing it needs is polishing to keep it smooth and engaging.
Comments
- Lachesis (I think?) might point to Mucka and Bolt instead, as those quests are far more straightforward. Instead of "kill gnome, hope for chain to drop, give chain to Finko, hope the portal isn't open" it'd be "kill gnome, give gnome to mucka, profit".
- Perhaps putting in learning your skills somewhere near the top. They'll come in handy all through the tour, both for killing finks/gnomes and the collegium.
- "Atropos of the Shears says, "Lusternia is an expansive world, almost impossible for one as young as you to navigate successfully. But you are not alone - let Me teach you the gift of pathfinding."". But Lachesis already covered that with pathfinding to the quests.
- Including all the Collegium tasks makes the intro feel a bit too long, and it probably makes newbies think that the collegium is something that has to be done right away. While the collegium is certainly helpful, perhaps cutting that bit out of the tour might be good, and point to it after the tour is over?
- Interacting with guides through tells as was pointed out above would remove the confusion of other people thinking you're insane (or perhaps worse, people ignoring what newbies say as they think it's part of the tour).
Other than that, I think it's a very good tour. Sure, there's polishing to be done, but it is very nice!
To me, this is a lot better since they don't have to look a HELP WHATNOW or have someone explain that there are quests that can be done, which they might not have known that they exist if they were not told.
First, I (accidentally) ran through the old intro I--this happened because Clotho never appeared, and the old intro started with Lachesis. Oh well. So, I ran through that to refresh my memory of how the old intro went.
Then, I created a new character and ran the new intro.
The new intro was really confusing. I knew from reading the posts here that I could click on each of the possible responses, but if I hadn't read them, I would not have known to click on them. I have a feeling that this may not work in other clients, so a hint mentioning that you can CLICK or SAY each response would be appreciated.
As has been mentioned, the Fates Quest doesn't actually work until the end. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't complete the task.
Having the Basin-wide ambient messages interrupt the intro really threw me off.
There is no separation between optional responses/commands and required ones. I sorta bumbled about until Clotho magically disappeared and Lachesis appeared--I, too, didn't get to test all of Clotho's responses because I hit the magical required ones before hitting the rest. And then, I didn't know that going to Newton was required until I went.
In the middle of talking with Lachesis, the shadow appeared. It didn't seem to be connected to anything I said or did, it just showed up and I had to kill it. Seemed pointless, given no context. Same thing when it appeared in Newton
I reached numerous points where I couldn't do anything more. I had to complete a quest, but don't remember being told that.
Having to complete collegium quests in order to fully finish the intro makes the intro much, much longer and more complicated. The line between when the intro is over is heavily blurred, even though it has an "end." Once the collegium quests start, it stops being an introduction, since at least one of the collegium quests is out of the reach of newbies (they need help from someone bigger and stronger)--and if no one is around, then a newbie can't finish the introduction.
I think the idea of putting the collegium tasks in the intro is not a bad idea. The implementation is just too patchwork. If the collegium was a place that only newbies could enter and interact with, that might make it easier. Right now, it feels really out of place.
The intro looks like it can be done in any order. This is not the case. For example, I exited the Portal, then didn't know how to proceed. I was told to do the collegium tasks on the newbie channel. When I did those, I didn't know what to do next, so on a whim, went to Newton. Then, I found out that I should have gone there much earlier on. Basically, all of my interactions with the Fate Guides came in the wrong places, and my experience was really disjointed, out of place, and bad.
Overall, I don't like this new intro. It gets an "A" for the amount of information it conveys--it covers things that Newbies often don't know about. But it feels like it wasn't put together very well. Progression is muddled, things pop in and pop out, it's difficult to know where you are in it. Basically, it's a LOT more confusing for Newbies than the current one. If I didn't want the 10 bound credits at the end, I wouldn't have stuck with it. I don't want to spend over an hour in just an intro unless there's a reason (and it did take me that long with all the collegium quests). The old intro was paltry, but it did its purpose--it led newbies through what they needed to know in an orderly fashion, then passed things on to the cities/communes and the collegiums. This one... I don't know what it does.
- (Newbie): Barley says, "I am new in the realm and need help." Frankly, when they are asked to say that, they don't actually need help. It's awesome that they learn that the newbie channel exists and how to use it, but I feel people will just start ignoring that message (and other messages sounding like it) "because it's part of the intro", whether or not the newbie needs help or not. I feel it should be a more neutral message (although I can't think of one off-hand).
We've done a few tweaks based on feedback. Some of the questions you can ask the guides were purposefully persistent (like how to use help on each guide) on the assumption that some newbies may forget that information. Just because it gets flashed to a newbie once, doesn't necessarily mean they will remember!
Newbie was the wrong word--every novice character I've talked to who is going through the new intro (I can tell because they keep talking to their guides) tells me that they are confused.
You greet Atropos of the Shears with a sincere smile.
[1] What do I do with this journal?
[2] I would like to know more about the history of Lusternia.
[3] How do I get more help?
You say, "What do I do with this journal?"
Atropos of the Shears says, "Why don't you try to read it?"
[HINT]: Type READ JOURNAL to see what is written within it.
You see nothing written there.
-
And that's it. Nothing happens.
Edit: Turns out I need to go to the ruins on Ackleberry road - but no where at all in the tutorial was I told to go there, or how to get there. I asked on Newbie why it wasn't working and was told my Ssaliss to go there!