Does this happen often?

Ferra

I'm attempting to join Serenwilde, I ask someone capable of inducting me if I should join via them or the NPC. They point me to the NPC and I can't, due to being too high a level. Instead of handling me, I'm pointed to the ambassador, because I need "to get approval". This is the message I received back:

Sent By: Lynn on 06/13/22:58

Greetings. If you could send me your age and past organization(s), then we will continue with your induction. You will need to gather three sponsors from the Serenwilde, one of whom needs to be a leader (GA, GM, or GC) from your chosen guild. I will then interview you, and pending that, you will be inducted.

So, does this happen often? I'm really not trying to be inflammatory, but this seems a little much. Yes, my character is 73 years old and level 75, but I've never done anything of note, and this seems a little overly harsh. Before I go on any further IC, I'd like to know what the deal is!

Lavinya

This is something you need to resolve entirely IC - the restrictions are entirely roleplay based and not mechanical. As far as I am aware, this is Serenwilde's standard procedure, each org has their own way of dealing with people wishing to join them. You should have an easy time getting sponsers if you have a quiet past! Don't let it frustrate you, just engage in the rp, take it as an opportunity to meet and speak with people in the Org, to build your own character's foundation and reasoning for wanting to be of the Serenwilde. 

Xenthos

Most organizations have some sort of interview process.  Glomdoring also has an interview process for people who cannot be inducted via the NPC (three sponsors, one from the guild in question).  No need for a fourth interview though, just the three sponsors.

Part of the point of it is for them to get a bit of feel for you, yes, but the other part of it is for them to give you a feel of the organization you are trying to join.  As a newbie fresh from the portal you won't really have other expectations or things to shake off, but as an "established" player it's not a bad thing to get a little better understanding of where you are going.

Turnus

Yep, that's standard Serenwilde procedure for anybody too big to get inducted by the NPC.

3 sponsors, 1 of which needs to be an elected leader in the guild you want to join. The other 2 can be any old Joe Schmoe, should be able to find somebody on help serenwilde or standing around the mother tree if you don't already know any wilders.

You can get started on finding sponsors before you even hear from the ambassador, just have them msg about sponsorship.

Xenthos

PS: For characters who have "done something" to the organization in question, there's usually quite a bit more required.  Demonstrations of changed behaviour, a period of service in which they have to prove themselves, and so on.  Most interviews are a pretty tame process.  Just avoid saying something like "I hate trees, let's burn them all down" or "I like to eat fae on toast" and you should be good.

Neos

Xenthos said:

PS: For characters who have "done something" to the organization in question, there's usually quite a bit more required.  Demonstrations of changed behaviour, a period of service in which they have to prove themselves, and so on.  Most interviews are a pretty tame process.  Just avoid saying something like "I hate trees, let's burn them all down" or "I like to eat fae on toast" and you should be good.

So that's where I've been going wrong... Good to know.

Alban

Some of these IC restrictions on joining are overly harsh, especially if you're not an enemy.

The last person I knew who tried to join Serenwilde ended up just quitting playing because they couldn't get 3 sponsors to reply after 2 weeks.

People need to lighten up a bit, it's still a game.

Turnus

Sorry but if it takes somebody 2 weeks to get anybody to like them enough to say sure you can join, something's wrong. Unless somebody is super annoying, I generally give them the okay after like 5 minutes if they ask. I would bet if you stood around the nexus for 30 minutes you could find yourself the sponsors you need.

Guilds can be a different story and that can sometimes drag - I was guilty of that myself as GA before.

Lavinya

Perhaps that's something to bring up IC then? Roleplay is a wonderful thing! I'm very much of the belief that if you want to change things outside mechanics, the best way is to rp it out. Get feedback from others who went through the process, see if they agree it is harsh. Make a petition, make evidence to support your belief, take it to the right people, get support. You can make changes happen, and get the added benefit of enjoyable interactions and character developments. It's still a game, sure, a roleplaying one! I think you'd have better success doing that than engaging in ooc complaints. Just my two cents. it's just rp, not an attempt to ruin anyone's game.And rp is awesome.

Ferra

Perhaps it's just me, but induction RP has never struck me as engaging, and this certainly doesn't make it any better. I understand what they might be going for, but it seems forced and very much a deterrent, rather than any sort of enticing bit of RP.

Alban

Turnus said:

Sorry but if it takes somebody 2 weeks to get anybody to like them enough to say sure you can join, something's wrong. Unless somebody is super annoying, I generally give them the okay after like 5 minutes if they ask. I would bet if you stood around the nexus for 30 minutes you could find yourself the sponsors you need.

Guilds can be a different story and that can sometimes drag - I was guilty of that myself as GA before.

The problem was no one ever being online to do it.

This was a while back, maybe Serenwilde was just in a bad state at the time, but it didn't help the person wanting to play and couldn't get anything done.

Enyalida

The Serenwilde induction procedures are pretty standard for Lusternian orgs, yes. It is a deterrent, you're not supposed to be jumping ship too often, and we (most players) want some way to make sure we're not letting in someone who shouldn't be let in. Adding a bit of friction (though, as Turnus notes, it's often pretty trivial to just grab the first three people you see if you're not infamous) makes it so that leaders have the opportunity to throw serious brakes on. When that friction is removed and people are just inducting willy-nilly, there have historically been... major issues. I mean, major, big-news-post-string, giant-drama issues. 

Sidenote: If you find RPing induction to be boring, be more interesting! Don't just hit up random people with a "I want to join, because I do." message.

EDIT: Sidenote number 2: You should also realize that in Lusternia... Commune/City Leaders and to a lesser extent the Council have... all the power.  The leader has literally all of the ministry commands at their disposal. If something like what Alban describes happens, where you are genuinely incapable of gathering sponsors - try asking the Ambassador to refer you up the line to the council or leader. Talk about the possibility for interesting RP right as you're potentially joining - rooting out problems in the governmental systems, bringing notice to an injustice!

EDIT2: And, most people who are technically able to induct are by no means allowed to do so. See the above point about problematic induction being a problem! So, don't feel like people who were pointing you to the ambassador were being lazy or shirking some kind of duty.

Ferra

That's a real shame. =/

Llandros

Some orgs are easier to get into than others. Shop around if that is causing you trouble.

Kio

Llandros said:

Some orgs are easier to get into than others. Shop around if that is causing you trouble.

He or she should be choosing the Org based on the Org's beliefs, not how easy it is to join!

Alban

Depends on how strongly you disagree with the belief of making it hard to join. 

Kio

Alban said:

Depends on how strongly you disagree with the belief of making it hard to join. 

Asking for three sponsors doesn't make it hard to join.  At all.  If you can't find three sponsors because no one's online at the time you play, then that should be some sort of hint that you're probably not going to have much fun in the org.  And if there are people and they don't like your character's reasons for wanting to join, then you probably won't have much fun in that org, either.  I know it's been said before, but people don't want to induct people into a city or guild just to have them leave after two weeks because they've decided they don't like it.

Alban

I don't see why not. It doesn't hurt anyone and it's the only way to see if you really like playing there.

The argument seems to be you should embrace this process because it's an opportunity to RP. RP what exactly, I do not know.

Interviewer: "So why do you want to join us here in Serenwilde?"
Real life me: That's just where I want to be.

In game me: "I like nature."
Interviewer: "What guild do you plan on joining" / no idea why this is relevant to anything

Me: "Hartstone I guess."

I mean, what would happen if I joined the Serenguard instead? XD

I honestly don't feel that strongly about this, it's just always been a bit silly in my mind, to put a filter up that doesn't really filter anyone - because you're going to say yes anyway, it just makes things inconvenient.

What kind of things would the person have to say to not be allowed to join?  If you are filtering people out because they have disagreements with people in your org that results in "many news posts"... that honestly sounds like a ton more RP than would ever happen in one of these interviews.

Kio

Alban said:

Interviewer: "So why do you want to join us here in Serenwilde?"
Real life me: That's just where I want to be.

In game me: "I like nature."
Interviewer: "What guild do you plan on joining" / no idea why this is relevant to anything

Me: "Hartstone I guess."

If this is the kind of RP that an interviewer for an org is dolling out, said org needs a new interviewer.

Enyalida

We ask what guild you join, the idea being that the leader of that guild who vouches for you... is vouching for you and taking a certain amount of responsibility to do something about it if things go south.

Acrune

Kio said:

Alban said:

Interviewer: "So why do you want to join us here in Serenwilde?"
Real life me: That's just where I want to be.

In game me: "I like nature."
Interviewer: "What guild do you plan on joining" / no idea why this is relevant to anything

Me: "Hartstone I guess."

If this is the kind of RP that an interviewer for an org is dolling out, said org needs a new interviewer.

Thats... pretty much every IRE interview I've ever had anywhere.

Edit: Except for the occasional "You want to join? Ok, welcome aboard!"

Nihta

in fairness when an interviewer in real life asks me "why do you want this job" my response isn't "because I want money and this was one of the many places that I applied to", but instead "because I love working with people and customer service, ect"

hint: I do not like customer service, it stresses me out.

Steingrim

Turnus said:

Sorry but if it takes somebody 2 weeks to get anybody to like them enough to say sure you can join, something's wrong. Unless somebody is super annoying, I generally give them the okay after like 5 minutes if they ask. I would bet if you stood around the nexus for 30 minutes you could find yourself the sponsors you need.

Guilds can be a different story and that can sometimes drag - I was guilty of that myself as GA before.

Maybe you meant the term differently than I think of it, but no one should have to make someone like them.

Really this is just hazing. If there's a guild GA/GM who is willing to let someone join their org there's really no need for "additional sponsor's" for someone who no one knows. Honestly, if the person has never been enemied to any org related to the org they're trying to join the org should be bending over backwards to sign them up. This IS NOT directly specifically at one person, but quit acting as if you're the one doing them the favor, it is douchy.

Enyalida

Still disagree, and it's not hazing. Asking someone who wants to join after being a novice to follow the same procedures that everyone else who wants to join after being a novice is perfectly normal and fair. It's not  harassing the incoming person, nor is it embarrassing, humiliating, or abusing them - the definition of hazing.

Heck, asking for sponsors isn't even creating undue trouble or work for applicants! As Turnus said, if you really are a young character with no black marks, it's the work of minutes to stand at the Nexus looking for sponsors, or to hit up HELP <org> and HELP <org's guilds> and send tells to people looking to be interviewed. It's not anyone bending over backwards to do anything. 

I and many others in every org try our best to be available and most of us will bend over backwards to help other players, especially newer ones to the game or our org.

However, if you can't help yourself with what is ultimately a simple matter of chatting up two random commune folk and one guild person (or really, ANYONE on the council or the leader themselves), why do you expect us to bend over backwards to do anything? Really, sponsorship and joining is the easy part of being in an org, the RP is all 'uphill' from there (not that it isn't fun though)!

It would be a problem if someone was being blocked from gathering sponsors outside of the standard sponsorship systems. In other words, if people were brushing off and not engaging the applicant at all, or someone were spreading some kind of conspiracy against an applicant without telling any of the leaders or the ambassador about an objection. That's where the system would break down, as those in charge of it would potentially have no idea that it's going on and would probably just assume the applicant changed their mind. How to alleviate that problem: Be a proactive applicant! It doesn't take anything more than shooting someone who looks important a msg explaining your story and what's gone wrong, and waiting for an answer and probable resolution! 

Takeaway Message(s):
-Yes, it's pretty usual to have some kind of  involved restriction on joining.

-Yes, Lynn was 100% following the Serenwilde policy as laid out for inducting unknown people to the commune. I sincerely hope you didn't feel like you were being singled out! If you did, perhaps some different wording to make it more clear should have been in order, it can be looked into.

-No, the policy is not arbitrary, or designed to haze or otherwise harass innocent people.

   - @Morkarion: Specifically, it's designed so that you don't have to make any one person like you. We have a defined set of rules and procedures on how to let people in so that it's not left up to the whims of a few people, as much as that can be done in a setting like Lusternia. If there is any question about negative treatment, we can go back and look at the checklist of procedures. Did they talk to the ambassador? Check. Did the ambassador tell them to gather three sponsors. check. Yadda yadda. You can pick 3 out of anyone who isn't themselves a novice. If you can't make someone like you enough to sponsor you, fine... Try someone else. If we didn't have a defined procedure, it would be up to if the ambassador or leader was feeling nice that day, you get what you get. As it stands now, if someone is feeling nice and you RP with them on the subject... they might just let you right in with no additional effort on your part. However, there is always a baseline level of service, even for people who aren't feeling nice, that's extended as a formality even to people who have zero actual chance of ever being reinducted, just in case something changes in popular opinion about that person. Lesson here: No, it's really not arbitrary. 

-The best way to resolve problems with things like this is IC. If you think something has gone wrong, ask what's going on... just be polite. The best way to cause trouble for yourself is to be entitled and make demands or otherwise be overtly rude (which as far as I know, you haven't done! >- Thank you for that, we've had more ambassadors quit from being fed up with rude novices than anything else.)

Karlach

Dunno why you mentioned my name I haven't written a comment in this post.

Turnus

She means @Steingrim

Who btw, I wasn't saying I was doing people a favor, I was giving an example of how -easy- it is to get sponsors, as long as you a) actually ask and b) aren't incredibly annoying.

Kio

Just gonna throw out that Glomdoring does a similar thing with the sponsors.  Kio had a fellow (rather old, too - 256yrs) ask for his sponsorship.

You know what happened?  Kio took him into his manse and talked to him for about 30 minutes.  He then asked members of the orgs said person said things about because he didn't believe him.  Kio still thinks he's lying through his teeth and doesn't really belong in the Glomdoring.  In fact, if it was up to him, he'd tell the guy to go "kiss and make up with them squirrels up north."

Kio still gave him a sponsorship, though.  After all, the Glomdoring can change you if you serve it.

Lerad

This is a fairly contentious subject, it appears.

I personally just use an iron rule of thumb to decide how much "trouble" I should be giving to applicants who want to join my org:

If they are a newbie, the amount of effort they need to put in is absolutely zero. If everything was perfect, they'd be inducted without even having to blink at me. On the other hand, if they are not a newbie, it doesn't matter if they are asked to jump through one hoop or a million. If they can't do what is asked of them, they can look for another org.

Unfortunately, NPC inductions do not catch all newbies. In game age, in game experience level, play time and in game "freshman" status are not enough vectors to catch every newbie. Someone can be 200 IG years old, level 50, and have a 100 hours of online playtime, and still be pretty much a newbie. This applies most specifically to returning players of a really really long time ago. The game is so changed that they are pretty much facing an entirely new one.

To say that it is not fair to ask of sponsorship requirements of newbies, no matter how easy it is to get said sponsorships, is a 100% valid statement. Newbies, whether "True Newbies" or returning players, should be caught and kept, and the hassle they face before they can start enjoying the game should be kept to the very minimum. Yes, this includes giving them free pass into any org they apply to, even if they are going to hop through every single org available after spending 2 days in each. This is the very purpose of NPC inductions: to allow newbies to try and decide on which org they want to be a part of without the hassle of bureacratic red tape.

Bureacracy cannot work without set guidelines to pigeonhole each applicant. Yet to pigeonhole every applicant that cannot be NPC inducted into the "non-newbie" slot just plain doesn't work. The only solution is exception. It's not a perfect solution, and even worse, exceptions in a bureacratic system can threaten the integrity of the very system itself. However, handling all applicants on a case-by-case basis, with the possibility of giving exceptional treatement to certain cases, is a responsibility and risk that the ambassador in particular, but also the ruling council, should be willing to shoulder. If as a person in such a position, you feel that an applicant should be treated like a newbie despite not being able to use NPC induction, then you should definitely excercise executive priviledge to cut the dude through the red tape. The first thing a newbie needs is an org to belong in, to buy things in. Not "RP" interaction with people when they are not even sure they want to stay in that org yet.

Enyalida

I'm sorry @morkarion. I did mean @steingrim, I have no idea what happened there either.

Acrune

Enyalida said:

Heck, asking for sponsors isn't even creating undue trouble or work for applicants! As Turnus said, if you really are a young character with no black marks, it's the work of minutes to stand at the Nexus looking for sponsors, or to hit up HELP <org> and HELP <org's guilds> and send tells to people looking to be interviewed. It's not anyone bending over backwards to do anything. 

Then what's the point? Best case scenario in this situation, it's a pointless hassle, requiring the involvement of five people (newbie, inducter, 3 sponsors) for a trivial procedure. Worst case scenario, the player doesn't want to go to the hassle and quits the game. 

Enyalida

Sorry @Ferra for this divert, after your question has already been answered!

@acrune: 
The point is that you end up talking to three people, who each have a chance to form an opinion about the new player and inform the ambassador and leaders about that opinion. Just because a task is easy doesn't mean it's not worth doing... it just means that "it's too hard to do" and all derivative statements are not true.

Best case scenario: You just introduced the new person to their best three friends in the org, and the reason to continue playing Lusternia. You've sparked the RP threads for a mentorship by a guild leader, who feels responsibility for your membership and life as a citizen of XYZ org. New characters have a rare stage for almost pure exposition and establishment of their character, as well as the opportunity for that to lead to future conflict and resolution with other characters. You don't get that with joining via an NPC or joining via a PC-acting-as-an-NPC-and-just-flat-inducting-everyone. 

Worst case: The player spend 5-10 minutes doing something simple asked of them and either gets inducted or doesn't. In fact, not being inducted because of a system like this is ultimately better than being accepted automatically.  Seriously. It sucks to not get inducted, but if you RP it out... you're likely to end up with a far more interesting and engaging  plot arc for your character. One of my earlier characters (Whom I still love dearly) was not allowed to join Celest-Isune's order, but the RP resulting from that was very interesting and fun. The character was bitter, angry about being rejected on the grounds they were (which did take the form of some RP), and expressed it when probed on the subject. 

In other words, the basic idea of having sponsors required to join isn't flawed, harassment, pointless, or hazing. It's just not. I don't understand what the real objections are, nothing really substantive has been brought up. From what I can tell the problems were:

-It doesn't spur extensive RP.

-It's pointless

-It's hazing

-If it's so easy, why bother having people do it.

To which the replies are:

-Wrong, it just doesn't require extensive RP. Lusternia has a few RP problems, one is that RP isn't actually required for much that doesn't directly involve the divine. If you want RP injected into your day-to-day playing, you have to go looking for it, or strike it up. What induction does do is provide a good set place for your character to pour their heart out (or not, and lie out their behind) about their past, motivations, and so on. Seize the opportunity.

-It's not pointless, it makes sure a new member isn't 'sneaking in', and gives them at least three points of contact in your new org. These are people who know who you are, and who you have spoken to (hopefully at length) already once you're a member.

-It's not hazing because it's easy enough to not be harrassment, and it doesn't involve any kind of abuse or shaming activity. If someone is using it to haze, that's a problem that should be reported to admins via ISSUEing, and potentially also to org leadership.

-If it's so easy, why not just play along?

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On the other hand,  I do agree with Lerad. Without some way to address wildcard situations, where the problem doesn't necessarily match up with the rote solution, the entire thing stalls when it meets a bump. That's why we (And I have to assume, Glomdoring) have put some of that power in the hands of the Ambassador and their aides, to decide how to handle things.  In Serenwilde's case: "He or she [The Ambassador] will use discretion in determining whether sponsors should be gathered or not.".  But.. If they know nothing about you, nothing about your history, why should they feel moved to make an exception for you?

 Of course, in this situation, the implicit "The ruling council and leader make the rules and have all the mechanical power, and therefore can change the rules or gloss over them as needed, provided they don't do anything that would get them voted out" solution is applicable.

So:
If you feel the IC arbitration isn't treating you fairly, go up the IC chain of command. Not all of the chain will be obvious from the outside or clear to a newer player, but doing HELP <org> has one person's name up at the top with a big impressive sounding title, and you generally will have already talked to at least one person - the Ambassador - who can point you in the right direction for complaints. If you can't figure out who to talk to... talk to anyone! They're liable to ask, and be pointed to help scrolls that have the correct information... and presto: You've made a potential new ally/friend/contact, and have a reason to interact with them! Basically, if the Ambassador doesn't use their right to expedite... try to convince them otherwise. Try to convince someone else to convince them otherwise. Try to talk to higher-ups to override the Ambassador. Failing all that... just comply, it's not hard and it does do good things for you.

So right, if done incorrectly, something like this can cause problems. However, I'm not convinced everyone is on the same page with what is actually going on here. The Serenwilde method of doing things does include built in ways to deal with problems outside of the normal scope of operations, you just have to interact enough for them to come into play.