Upgrading three of the plague affs (pox, worms, rigormortis) would almost have no effect on Nihilists, as long as they aren't upgraded to knock off balance, you'll not have to worry about anything from a Nihilist stand point.
Pox really just needs to tick more often, and for more damage, and its probably a fine affliction (though easily cured).
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
FYI, I told the envoys the other day that we are open to updating some afflictions in the envoy reports. For example, what if you are afflicted with the worms and dysentery affliction, there is some third effect (more bleeding, damage, harder to cure them, etc.).
In other words, we're much more amenable to updating afflictions than adding new ones.
Would making it so broken limbs reduce blunt dmp and dysentery, vomiting, worms pox or whatever reduce cutting dmp? A solution preferable to boosting damage to overcome excess dmp which would just result in exploding novices and crazy high damage on people who forgot their armor in a cabinet.
Physical damage types for casters are a significant hurdle to overcome especially for these guys who are pretty damage focused and already put out a pretty good number of affs.
Physical dmp is a common racial resist, and armor of all types have it in spades, not to mention resilience.
ps. obligatory notice about possible self serving suggestion in that depending on the exact affs, it might impact ironchord as well
So here are what all the focus fume, mists and whatever
mag
celest
halli
seren
glom
gaudi
vomiting
ego drain
damage
faerie fire
dysentery
Nothing!
dizziness
vapors
sensitivity
broken limb
masochism
Nothing!
pox
recklessness
epilepsy
fractured skull
worms
Nothing!
damage/heal
faerie fire
asthma
slickness
bleeding
Nothing!
Keep in mind they have other stuff going on and that this is just one aspect of their offense.
However, Geo's and wyrden seem to be lacking pretty in the synergy department
Whereas halli gets damage and sensitivity and seren comes out on top with two mending affs and slickness.
Celest gets high synergy with TP not to mention vapors to hide the other affs.
Seems some tinkering is called for
Synergy doesn't mean a thing if there's nothing stopping someone from simply walking out. Depending on how some things turn out, I plan on changing around the affs given by at least 2 of the mist.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited April 2013
<BLOCKQUOTE class=Quote> <DIV class=QuoteAuthor><A href="/profile/Estarra">Estarra</A> said:</DIV> <DIV class=QuoteText>FYI, I told the envoys the other day that we are open to updating some afflictions in the envoy reports. For example, what if you are afflicted with the worms and dysentery affliction, there is some third effect (more bleeding, damage, harder to cure them, etc.). <BR><BR>In other words, we're much more amenable to updating afflictions than adding new ones.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This makes me happy.</P> <P> </P> <P>@Neos: Everyone has to deal with people "simply walking out." Literally everyone and very few get effecient passive movement hindering. This isn't some unique problem for you, or even a "problem" in that it doesn't have a solution.</P>
Every other class (besides maybe Commune Knights) have some way to prevent someone from walking out.
Anyone with Rituals (All Guardians, all City Knights) have access to Carcer.
All melds have a various way to stop (currents, pathtwist, stonerain, rainbow pattern) or Walls/Vines to slow them down.
Wiccans have pigwidgeons.
Bards have PerfectFifth.
Editted(Forgot about monks!): Monks don't have a way to stop people like everyone else, but I believe they don't need one, its easy to get 'monk'd' to death quickly.
Chemancers/*Woods have nothing.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Every other class (besides maybe Commune Knights) have some way to prevent someone from walking out.
Anyone with Rituals (All Guardians, all City Knights) have access to Carcer.
All melds have a various way to stop (currents, pathtwist, stonerain, rainbow pattern) or Walls/Vines to slow them down.
Wiccans have pigwidgeons.
Bards have PerfectFifth.
Editted(Forgot about monks!): Monks don't have a way to stop people like everyone else, but I believe they don't need one, its easy to get 'monk'd' to death quickly.
Chemancers/*Woods have nothing.
Stop making sense so I can continue to hate you! Though, TKs do have hindering.
I won't disagree that excessive DMP can be a problem, but your suggestion seems to overlook synergy with warriors. Warriors themselves would love to overcome that excessive DMP, especially given the other hurdles to successfully striking and damaging a target.
Not if it just applies to brute and or magical source blunt/cutting. Which would also prevent mobs that give affs from getting in on it as well.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Every other class (besides maybe Commune Knights) have some way to prevent someone from walking out.
Anyone with Rituals (All Guardians, all City Knights) have access to Carcer.
All melds have a various way to stop (currents, pathtwist, stonerain, rainbow pattern) or Walls/Vines to slow them down.
Wiccans have pigwidgeons.
Bards have PerfectFifth.
Editted(Forgot about monks!): Monks don't have a way to stop people like everyone else, but I believe they don't need one, its easy to get 'monk'd' to death quickly.
Chemancers/*Woods have nothing.
"@Neos: Everyone has to deal with people "simply walking out." Literally everyone and very few get effecient passive movement hindering. This isn't some unique problem for you, or even a "problem" in that it doesn't have a solution"
The only thing that is really effecient and passive that you listed are meld effects (and debately carcer, though carcer wouldn't help with the timebomb IMO). Meld effects were actually what I was referring to with the "very few" caveat. So...no. Not even close to unique. Dealing with runners is a nearly universal problem. How do I know this? They run from me too!
Actually, I would go further and say it should be taken all the way. Imperian starts posting new skill info pretty much on day one of design, in the beginning with little teasers about what the primary mechanic/flavor will be and later with full AB pages (generally over a month before the skill is released!). They've still had day 0 patches necessary for a few things that made it all the way to the game with big problems, but on the whole it's been a very good thing for balance; it opens a discourse between players and staff and makes sure that an idea will ultimately be viable before people dump weeks coding it and $600+ learning it out of the gate.
That isn't why Imperian's recent class remakes or skill releases did well. The open-application beta tests are why they did so well. Having participated in the most recent one, their Druid remake had a lot of issues that had to be ironed out and only a lot of input from players stress-testing it for long periods of time could reveal that kind of issue. Imperian had too many issues with their attempts to just 'open beta' every change (i.e just set it loose in the wilds) that one of the game's bigger coders just decided to run betas before big changes. If the concerns raised about Chemantic or Wood skills are founded, they probably would have been found after a few days of beta testing - essentially, a beta test would be good in lieu of a special report.
On the actual topic: Geochem has some pretty rad flavor.
Every other class (besides maybe Commune Knights) have some way to prevent someone from walking out.
Anyone with Rituals (All Guardians, all City Knights) have access to Carcer.
All melds have a various way to stop (currents, pathtwist, stonerain, rainbow pattern) or Walls/Vines to slow them down.
Wiccans have pigwidgeons.
Bards have PerfectFifth.
Editted(Forgot about monks!): Monks don't have a way to stop people like everyone else, but I believe they don't need one, its easy to get 'monk'd' to death quickly.
Chemancers/*Woods have nothing.
"@Neos: Everyone has to deal with people "simply walking out." Literally everyone and very few get effecient passive movement hindering. This isn't some unique problem for you, or even a "problem" in that it doesn't have a solution"
The only thing that is really effecient and passive that you listed are meld effects (and debately carcer, though carcer wouldn't help with the timebomb IMO). Meld effects were actually what I was referring to with the "very few" caveat. So...no. Not even close to unique. Dealing with runners is a nearly universal problem. How do I know this? They run from me too!
Again, Chemancers get -no movement hindering- outside of whats given in a Tertiary (Mages do get Freeze Ground I suppose). Every other class has something to help them. Monks keep momentum, it takes time to cure wounds from Warriors, when someone runs away from you on the 5th twist, they are still there on the 5th twist.
When someone runs away from any Mage, they can easily cure up everything that the Mage was building up . Melds make it a lot harder to run away and cure that up. Chemancers/Woods have nothing at all to help them, but still rely on the same kill mechanics of keeping a person in a room long enough to build up to their opponents death.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Again, Chemancers get -no movement hindering- outside of whats given in a Tertiary (Mages do get Freeze Ground I suppose). Every other class has something to help them. Monks keep momentum, it takes time to cure wounds from Warriors, when someone runs away from you on the 5th twist, they are still there on the 5th twist.
When someone runs away from any Mage, they can easily cure up everything that the Mage was building up . Melds make it a lot harder to run away and cure that up. Chemancers/Woods have nothing at all to help them, but still rely on the same kill mechanics of keeping a person in a room long enough to build up to their opponents death.
You make it sound as though the runner will stay in the next room for the monk or warrior to walk in and continue hacking. If they do that and allow the warrior/monk to keep the progress they'd been building up, then the wood/chem can walk in and continue hacking the moment they regain balance as well. If you're going to argue that chem/woods are critically impaired compared to melders, then monks and warriors fall into the exact same situation. Once the opponent gets out, they're out and running, and catching them comes down to how smart (or stupid) they run. It's the same for a warrior/monk as it is for a chem/wood.
That's the major problem with runners. Chem/woods don't have momentum or wounds, but once the opponent is on the loose, those who rely on momentum/wounds are in the same position: screwed. Running is an important and highly effective tactic that affects most of the entire playerbase. Even carcer isn't anywhere near close to effective enough to contribute to a kill. It'll help a handful of times, when you're lucky enough that the opponent chose to try and run a little too late in your strategy. If not, you're as screwed as everyone else.
Except that its a lot harder to cure what Warriors/Monks do to you, then what a Chemancer/Wood can do to you.
You can cure almost everything that the Chemancer/Wood would do to you in one round of curing, except for maybe TK bursts which might take an extra round.
That is definitely not the case for Warriors/Monks. Editted: especially when you can get 'amptrained' or shattered ankles over and over.
So again, a Chemancer has to rely on the -exact- same kill methods as their Mage counterparts, except for two (or three) important things: A. Passive attacks that are not as strong as their meld counterparts (or reliant), and B. no way to prevent the enemy from running to cure up the attrition. And for Druids, C. No way to prevent curing like they can with Sap.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
You repeated what you said in the earlier post, which I quoted, Silv. That's what I was talking about: A runner isn't going to stay around to get caught while they haven't finished curing wounds. How hard it takes to cure the wounds is irrelevant, because once they're out, you're unlikely to catch them before they want to be caught, unless they really suck at running. In which case a chem/wood's vitals pressure is still going to be effectively lingering still.
A chem/wood's kill methods is mostly vitals. I doubt the affs are there
for much of anything except flavour. You can dispute that if you want,
of course, I'll leave the current chem/woods to argue that. Curing up
the affs is pretty simple, a single round as you say. But that doesn't
matter, does it, when it doesn't even contribute to their kill method?
Curing up vitals is more difficult.
Is a chem/wood weaker or stronger than a melder? I'll agree that it's mostly weaker in a 1v1 situation. A wood/chem isn't likely to reach their end-kill even if the target doesn't run at all. But that doesn't change that runners will screw over a monk/warrior just as much as a wood/chem. The problem here isn't the lack of effects to prevent running. The problem here is wood/chem itself. I guess what I'm saying is that running is entirely irrelevant to the discussion on improving wood/chems.
Synergy doesn't mean a thing if there's nothing stopping someone from simply walking out. Depending on how some things turn out, I plan on changing around the affs given by at least 2 of the mist.
It's not limited to wood/chems. Everyone, synergy or no synergy, is screwed over by runners. Their problem is their lack of a viable strategy to their kill method. You can give them an active way of neutralising running (aka pfifth) or give them a passive way of neutralising running (melds)... and they will still be unable to kill their target. Or you can improve their strategy and ignore the running part, because everyone else has to deal with that too. Highlighting running is going to do nothing but distract from constructive improvements to wood/chems. The admin aren't going to turn around and turn the wood/chems into bards or melders.
That is definitely not the case for Warriors/Monks. Editted: especially when you can get 'amptrained' or shattered ankles over and over.
I missed this edit when I was typing my reply. Getting pronelocked by a warrior is pretty much the end-kill for them. You're not getting out of an amp-train unless you have suspendedanimation or trueheal. You could spend all your power greening and you'll probably still die. You won't be in any condition to "run". Getting out of an amp-train isn't "curing wounds". It's called a "miracle".
Stacking shattered ankles is similar. There's a window to cure out, but it's a pretty small window, and your hopes of pulling it off is miniscule, especially against a faeling monk. Green is more effective here than with amp-trains, though, because ankles is limited by momentum, which needs the regen application time to build up again before they can re-apply ankles. If you green out of the ankles, you CAN stand and run before they get enough momentum to ankle you again.
One day we will be able to kill people without help. Until then, I'm gonna sit here with the slosh-pot of ideas I have and hope I can learn enough about combat to phrase them elegantly enough.
I don't think you've ever been a Mage or someone with a meld.
A Mage/Druid would be useless 1v1 and get almost no kills if their meld did not prevent running.
You can easily walk away from a Chemancer/Wood.
I'm not arguing about things that are subjective or bound to change (like affs being more there for flavor, which I'll call shenanigans on seeing as they are a focal point of the offense), or how their kill method is based around mostly depleting vitals.
What I'm saying is, a Mage/Druid's kill method is -reliant- on always keeping their enemy in their area of influence, and actively making it harder for that person to get away from the Mage/Druid. That is true for whatever specialization, tertiary, or kill method they aim for. A Chemancer/Wood handicaps themselves automatically by taking away their biggest strength (area of influence/prevention of running) and making it into one of their weaknesses (being a glorified warrior/monk).
No matter what reasonable upgrades are made to any of the Chemantics/Woods, if you don't upgrade their ability to slow/prevent running or extend their influence while someone runs away, they will always be second-tier compared to their Meld counterparts.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Well, I think you're both on the same page but don't realize it. What these classes lack is any sort of build-up mechanic and are entirely based on burst-damage that scales with sticking unstickable affs. Their entire design is far too simplistic.
No matter what reasonable upgrades are made to any of the Chemantics/Woods, if you don't upgrade their ability to slow/prevent running or extend their influence while someone runs away, they will always be second-tier compared to their Meld counterparts.
Eh, I don't agree with that. It's possible for an archetype to be
without the running prevention of melds and still be on par or even
stronger than a melder (in his meld) in a 1v1. It boils down to the strategies and the synergy that is available. A reasonable upgrade to chem/woods
without boosting their ability to slow/prevent running is certainly a
possible way to make them viable. What exactly that constitutes is what
we're discussing here, right?
It might be possible for other archetypes, like a warrior/monk/nihilist to succeed without the running prevention of melds.
But not Mages/Druids!
That is what makes them viable. Most meld effects really don't do much and won't beat you alone. They are just a bitch to get out of while the Mage/Druid works to build up or gets their burst ready.
A class reliant on giving afflictions will never kill you if they don't have A. a way to prevent curing, like aeon/crucifix/inquisition, or b. multiply effective ways to prevent someone from running.
Chemancers/Woods have neither of these options.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
All the information in previous posts about Wildewood affs (both of the tables, Akyaevin's and Silvanus's) were in some way deficient or incorrect. We don't deal succumb on our ten second passives, and faeriefire shares an effect with blind, and it smart afflicts. So functionally, it's blind, that sometimes does faeriefire (because most won't cure it).
EDIT: As I catch up on posts:
The reason that movement impairs the woodchemantics pretty badly and why the lack of movement hindering hurts is the core 'kill' method, the timed bursts. Normally yes, if you run the woodchemantic user can chase after you and just keep on hitting. However, if they're trying to use their burst combat abilities, they expend high chunks of power (up to 10 in a go) and destroy their passives on an attack that is room locked: If you 'run' even a single room, you've successfully avoided the attack. There's a big ol' paragraph at the start, and all sorts of warnings that a "big" attack is coming, and being away for even half a second will negate the ability, the high power cost... and really the skillset.
Also, HAH at druid melds preventing running. What, via paralysis once every 10 seconds? Briar walls, that hinder you... after you leave a room, and are randomly peppered throughout a meld? If you want a meld that hinders movement, druid is not the one you look at. You look at aquamancers with currents/whirlpool, or pyros with ashfall/map hiding.
EDIT2: The other thing I want to point out on the "running problem" front is that the skillsets don't have any buildup. There is no stacking or preparing of afflictions ahead of time, for the most part. As a Wildewood, my 'buildup' is waiting for power to come back from familiar sting (which costs way too much power for what it does), and snakebane. While waiting for that power to come back, I generally alternate entangles, stuns, or jumping jacks, it doesn't really matter. Nothing I can do can possibly stick long enough to make any sort of difference, so there isn't really any point in trying to build anything up. Once I have power back, I can give you the maximum number of affs for my Glinshari burst... pretty much unavoidably, if you're in the room when I decide to do that. If you move out before I hit with that combo (which involves the soon-to-be-nerfed shieldstun to prevent you from curing.,, otherwise you'd just instantly cure all I can do) you escaped! Nothing I can do. If you shield, same! There isn't really any way (solo) to get around that, and there isn't anything we can do that will change how that works or increase chance of victory.
On topic, Geochemancy will run into the same problem, so don't expect much out of it. Swap around your passives to the point that they contribute something useful to a group situation, and basically ignore your burst skills, as far as envoying goes. You'll have to rely on TK to get anything done solo no matter how you shuffle around affs or change the trans skill, and you can rely on it in groups to provide that movement hindering support, if you want.
Currents doesn't hinder movement. That's whirlpool. Currents moves someone in a random direction. The message when whirlpool stops you from moving just happens to have the word currents in it. Also, whirlpool is mage room only in its movement stopping.
Currents can pull people back in when they're trying to swim out from the adjacent room. (And I remember on testing that whirlpool also works in adjacent rooms with the stopping effect, has that changed?)
Currents can pull people back in when they're trying to swim out from the adjacent room. (And I remember on testing that whirlpool also works in adjacent rooms with the stopping effect, has that changed?)
Every 10 seconds. It takes less than 10 seconds to swim out or just re-raise waterwalk and walk out. I can't be sure about the second thing, largely because any time I've sparred any other Aquas I prefer fighting without demesnes for us to be on equal ground and any non-spars I try to control the demesne. Also, there's the chance to be pushed, though Whirlpool can pull you back, but if not, you're even closer to being able to walk out.
Currents can pull people back in when they're trying to swim out from the adjacent room. (And I remember on testing that whirlpool also works in adjacent rooms with the stopping effect, has that changed?)
Every 10 seconds. It takes less than 10 seconds to swim out or just re-raise waterwalk and walk out. I can't be sure about the second thing, largely because any time I've sparred any other Aquas I prefer fighting without demesnes for us to be on equal ground and any non-spars I try to control the demesne. Also, there's the chance to be pushed, though Whirlpool can pull you back, but if not, you're even closer to being able to walk out.
Yes, but if you need to swim 2 rooms out, that's a fair amount of time and the fact is you can get unlucky and dragged back in, never mind the stun and the TK attacks that will be hindering as well.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Well, I think you're both on the same page but don't realize it. What these classes lack is any sort of build-up mechanic and are entirely based on burst-damage that scales with sticking unstickable affs. Their entire design is far too simplistic.
I imagine that when the decision was made to go with designing six new
primary skills without introducing new afflictions, on a practical level
a simple skill design was preferred. But yes, as thematically great as
all the new skills are, they do seem to have been designed without
consideration of how a person can stick the afflictions needed for their
kill condition. That they were initially introduced as an option for
melders who'd prefer a 1v1 oriented skill makes it somewhat more of a let
down, as that is exactly where they are weakest. (Psionic users
excluded, TK/TP already being viable, yadda yadda!)
I don't think
it's an unsalvageable design though, as what also appears to have been
neglected in their design is how they might interact with a mage/druid's
secondary skill. Phantasms has quite a few demesne requiring abilities,
so I think introducing options for *mancers there might be a good route
to take, and once Pyrochemantics is released, we'll have full picture. I
imagine similar could be done with Stag/Crow.
As a rough brainstorm of what I think a mancer-Phantasms ability might be like:
Infusing a thread of your soul into a phantom sight stealer will enable you to send it to your target and see what he or she sees, as long as the target is in your demesne when the illusion is cast.
(mancers): Syntax: BLEND MIST/CLOUD/FUME STOLENSIGHT <target> Power: 1 (Any) Reqs: 5 Mist/Cloud/Fumes (takes direct from spec. receptacle, doesn't drop focused)
Blending your mists/clouds/fumes with a phantom sight stealer will enable your mists/clouds/fumes to condense into the very body of your target, obscuring their sight. (aff: blindness)
StolenThoughts
might be something like a one-time 'anti-flee', where attempting to
pass through the mancer's mists/clouds/fumes on way to exit makes you
forget what you're doing and you get sprawled + amnesia or whatever.
Buffing a few of the
'dud' afflictions also helps things, but for a 1v1'ing mancer/wood, I
don't think it's enough since they're mostly pretty limited in the
afflictions they can give out.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
This discussion is devolving rapidly.
Running is a universal issue. Woods might need some adjustment with cure hindering as was brought up, but that's a different discussion. If you want to throw a pigwidgeon at all the new skillset just to appease the complaints though accomplish nothing substantive, by all means go for it. One week later we can all agree that true movement hindering in 1v1 combat is mostly a myth, and that a runner is going to run (save for a few select examples like Nihilists which have a kill method that prevents running or fighting back) in any scenario, be it with cubixes or walking or tumbling or what have you, in any situation but the arena. I'm not buying into the plight of the psionic chemantics that can't keep people from moving. Do whatever everyone else does and buy a web enchant and get an automated scent/map tracker.
The assertion that they need meld style movement hindering because mages need that to kill anyone is 1) grossly misleading and 2) not a good place to balance from.
Comments
Signature!
<DIV class=QuoteAuthor><A href="/profile/Estarra">Estarra</A> said:</DIV>
<DIV class=QuoteText>FYI, I told the envoys the other day that we are open to updating some afflictions in the envoy reports. For example, what if you are afflicted with the worms and dysentery affliction, there is some third effect (more bleeding, damage, harder to cure them, etc.). <BR><BR>In other words, we're much more amenable to updating afflictions than adding new ones.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><BR>This makes me happy.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>@Neos: Everyone has to deal with people "simply walking out." Literally everyone and very few get effecient passive movement hindering. This isn't some unique problem for you, or even a "problem" in that it doesn't have a solution.</P>
Anyone with Rituals (All Guardians, all City Knights) have access to Carcer.
Signature!
"@Neos: Everyone has to deal with people "simply walking out." Literally everyone and very few get effecient passive movement hindering. This isn't some unique problem for you, or even a "problem" in that it doesn't have a solution"
The only thing that is really effecient and passive that you listed are meld effects (and debately carcer, though carcer wouldn't help with the timebomb IMO). Meld effects were actually what I was referring to with the "very few" caveat. So...no. Not even close to unique. Dealing with runners is a nearly universal problem. How do I know this? They run from me too!
On the actual topic: Geochem has some pretty rad flavor.
That's the major problem with runners. Chem/woods don't have momentum or wounds, but once the opponent is on the loose, those who rely on momentum/wounds are in the same position: screwed. Running is an important and highly effective tactic that affects most of the entire playerbase. Even carcer isn't anywhere near close to effective enough to contribute to a kill. It'll help a handful of times, when you're lucky enough that the opponent chose to try and run a little too late in your strategy. If not, you're as screwed as everyone else.
That is definitely not the case for Warriors/Monks. Editted: especially when you can get 'amptrained' or shattered ankles over and over.
So again, a Chemancer has to rely on the -exact- same kill methods as their Mage counterparts, except for two (or three) important things: A. Passive attacks that are not as strong as their meld counterparts (or reliant), and B. no way to prevent the enemy from running to cure up the attrition. And for Druids, C. No way to prevent curing like they can with Sap.
A chem/wood's kill methods is mostly vitals. I doubt the affs are there for much of anything except flavour. You can dispute that if you want, of course, I'll leave the current chem/woods to argue that. Curing up the affs is pretty simple, a single round as you say. But that doesn't matter, does it, when it doesn't even contribute to their kill method? Curing up vitals is more difficult.
Is a chem/wood weaker or stronger than a melder? I'll agree that it's mostly weaker in a 1v1 situation. A wood/chem isn't likely to reach their end-kill even if the target doesn't run at all. But that doesn't change that runners will screw over a monk/warrior just as much as a wood/chem. The problem here isn't the lack of effects to prevent running. The problem here is wood/chem itself. I guess what I'm saying is that running is entirely irrelevant to the discussion on improving wood/chems.
It's not limited to wood/chems. Everyone, synergy or no synergy, is screwed over by runners. Their problem is their lack of a viable strategy to their kill method. You can give them an active way of neutralising running (aka pfifth) or give them a passive way of neutralising running (melds)... and they will still be unable to kill their target. Or you can improve their strategy and ignore the running part, because everyone else has to deal with that too. Highlighting running is going to do nothing but distract from constructive improvements to wood/chems. The admin aren't going to turn around and turn the wood/chems into bards or melders.
I missed this edit when I was typing my reply. Getting pronelocked by a warrior is pretty much the end-kill for them. You're not getting out of an amp-train unless you have suspendedanimation or trueheal. You could spend all your power greening and you'll probably still die. You won't be in any condition to "run". Getting out of an amp-train isn't "curing wounds". It's called a "miracle".
Stacking shattered ankles is similar. There's a window to cure out, but it's a pretty small window, and your hopes of pulling it off is miniscule, especially against a faeling monk. Green is more effective here than with amp-trains, though, because ankles is limited by momentum, which needs the regen application time to build up again before they can re-apply ankles. If you green out of the ankles, you CAN stand and run before they get enough momentum to ankle you again.
You can easily walk away from a Chemancer/Wood.
Eh, I don't agree with that. It's possible for an archetype to be without the running prevention of melds and still be on par or even stronger than a melder (in his meld) in a 1v1. It boils down to the strategies and the synergy that is available. A reasonable upgrade to chem/woods without boosting their ability to slow/prevent running is certainly a possible way to make them viable. What exactly that constitutes is what we're discussing here, right?
Also, HAH at druid melds preventing running. What, via paralysis once every 10 seconds? Briar walls, that hinder you... after you leave a room, and are randomly peppered throughout a meld? If you want a meld that hinders movement, druid is not the one you look at. You look at aquamancers with currents/whirlpool, or pyros with ashfall/map hiding.
EDIT2: The other thing I want to point out on the "running problem" front is that the skillsets don't have any buildup. There is no stacking or preparing of afflictions ahead of time, for the most part. As a Wildewood, my 'buildup' is waiting for power to come back from familiar sting (which costs way too much power for what it does), and snakebane. While waiting for that power to come back, I generally alternate entangles, stuns, or jumping jacks, it doesn't really matter. Nothing I can do can possibly stick long enough to make any sort of difference, so there isn't really any point in trying to build anything up. Once I have power back, I can give you the maximum number of affs for my Glinshari burst... pretty much unavoidably, if you're in the room when I decide to do that. If you move out before I hit with that combo (which involves the soon-to-be-nerfed shieldstun to prevent you from curing.,, otherwise you'd just instantly cure all I can do) you escaped! Nothing I can do. If you shield, same! There isn't really any way (solo) to get around that, and there isn't anything we can do that will change how that works or increase chance of victory.
On topic, Geochemancy will run into the same problem, so don't expect much out of it. Swap around your passives to the point that they contribute something useful to a group situation, and basically ignore your burst skills, as far as envoying goes. You'll have to rely on TK to get anything done solo no matter how you shuffle around affs or change the trans skill, and you can rely on it in groups to provide that movement hindering support, if you want.
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I don't think it's an unsalvageable design though, as what also appears to have been neglected in their design is how they might interact with a mage/druid's secondary skill. Phantasms has quite a few demesne requiring abilities, so I think introducing options for *mancers there might be a good route to take, and once Pyrochemantics is released, we'll have full picture. I imagine similar could be done with Stag/Crow.
As a rough brainstorm of what I think a mancer-Phantasms ability might be like:
StolenThoughts might be something like a one-time 'anti-flee', where attempting to pass through the mancer's mists/clouds/fumes on way to exit makes you forget what you're doing and you get sprawled + amnesia or whatever.
Buffing a few of the 'dud' afflictions also helps things, but for a 1v1'ing mancer/wood, I don't think it's enough since they're mostly pretty limited in the afflictions they can give out.
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