OOC channels? (short answer - no)

Raezon

This discussion was created from comments split from: QUOTES 8: THE QUOTING.

Zvoltz

Rivius said:

Messages are an exception though right?

You can look at messages much the same way you look at tells.

From HELP OOC:

Staying IN CHARACTER, and Other Restrictions
--------------------------------------------
Always stay in character (IC) on channels - you are playing the role 
of a person in a magical world called Lusternia. Talk about real life, 
other muds, or your favorite singer - this should all be done outside 
the game or, if you
must, use TELLS.

Be most careful with shouts - stay in character, watch language rules. 
Market channel is only for buying and selling: no chatting please. 
Newbie channel is for questions and answers about how to play the 
game: no chatting please.  Most other channels have their own rules, 
but are generally more tolerant of chatting and general conversation.

All channels are subject to HELP LANGUAGERULES, except clan channels.

(See also: HELP ROLEPOINTS)

Nakarel

It was a weird trip.....
-------

(Ship): Revan says, "Shockwave." (900.078s) (840.094s)

(Ship): Revan says, "Shockwave." (900.625s) (840.641s)

(Ship): Revan says, "Can a brutha get a shockwave?" (914.219s) (854.235s) -------

--------

Fang jerks to the north. (532.594s) (472.61s)

Fang jerks to the east. (534.297s) (474.313s)

Fang jerks to the east. (560.391s) (500.407s)

Fang jerks to the east. (561.578s) (501.594s)

(Ship): You say, "Revan, stop jerking!" (586.687s) (526.703s)

(Ship): Glick says, "Switch hands." (593.719s) (533.735s)

-----

Ship): Luthian says, "We're the Fashion Pirates in Men's Pants." (811.547s) (751.563s)

(Ship): Gorlois says, "'we're men. We're men in men's pants'" (821.406s) (761.422s)

(Ship): Luthian says, "We're men! (Manly men!) We're men in tight (TIGHT!) tights!"

(Ship): Glick says, "Flying around in aetherspace, lookin' for fights?" (891.797s) (831.813s)

------

/at the end/

(Ship): Gorlois says, "Tunnel? There is tunnel in Aethercraft?"

(Ship): Glick says, "What's Aethercraft?"

Conclusion: (Ship): Revan says, "This is like the Three Stooges of aetherhunting."

Gorlois

There was effing nothing to do as Revan, Glick and Luthian took turns derping derps all over the derping ship. Then we decided to dock and the others buggered off to do something else. Total kill count: 0

A swarm of gorgogs twists about itself in the aether, creating a churning sheet of aetheric energy that flies out towards Fang. Upon impact, the aethership shudders and screeches in pain as a concussive shock rips through the hull.

(Ship): Fang says, "I have been infested by an aetheretic slivven!"

(Ship): Velshar says, "Slivven found at turret412779 [Nakarel]."

(Ship): Velshar says, "Slivven found at turret412779 [Nakarel]."

(Ship): Nakarel says, "Heal my turret."

(Ship): Velshar says, "Slivven found at turret412779 [Nakarel]."

(Ship): You say, "Maybe kill that first."

<><><>

(Ship): You say, "Fair warning, I'm drunk. Not Gorlois, but me."

(Ship): Revan says, "Heh."

(Ship): Velshar says, "Glad you're not piloting."

(Ship): You say, "HAVE AT YOU -drunkenly fires turret and destroys aetherspace-."

<><><>

(Ship): You say, "I have written lusternia erotica but thayt's a different story."

(Ship): You say, "Sold it to crylia for a good price though."

(Ship): You say, "She was a wild one."

(Ship): Nakarel says, "Moan. Moan. Moan. Tell girl, "I love you"."

(Ship): Revan says, "Ahh crylia. I miss her."

(Ship): You say, "She's the only member of raezon's order who doesn't suck."

(Ship): Nakarel says, "....."

(Ship): Revan says, "Xarcon doesn't suck."

(Ship): Nakarel says, "Helloooooo."

(Ship): Revan says, "Nak only sucks on me."

(Ship): Nakarel says, "Missing somebody?"

(Ship): You say, "TMI, revan. TMI."

(Ship): Nakarel says, "Good one. Didn't see it coming."

(Ship): Revan says, "<3."

Shuyin

Ah man, OOC talk on ship tells

Eventru

As a polite reminder, ship channels are consider IC. And if you have the great misfortune of someone hearing it, you'll find yourself woefully bereft of rolepoints.

Shaddus

Eventru said:

As a polite reminder, ship channels are consider IC. And if you have the great misfortune of someone hearing it, you'll find yourself woefully bereft of rolepoints.

I thought all non-org channels could be considered OOC so long as nobody on the aether had an issue with it, like clans?

Elanorwen

Shaddus said:

Eventru said:

As a polite reminder, ship channels are consider IC. And if you have the great misfortune of someone hearing it, you'll find yourself woefully bereft of rolepoints.

I thought all non-org channels could be considered OOC so long as nobody on the aether had an issue with it, like clans?

Yeah, try explaining that to the Erinyes when they randomly blow the chair and grid up when you have a karibidean on your face.

Xenthos

Shaddus said:

Eventru said:

As a polite reminder, ship channels are consider IC. And if you have the great misfortune of someone hearing it, you'll find yourself woefully bereft of rolepoints.

I thought all non-org channels could be considered OOC so long as nobody on the aether had an issue with it, like clans?

No.

Gorlois

Eventru said:

As a polite reminder, ship channels are consider IC. And if you have the great misfortune of someone hearing it, you'll find yourself woefully bereft of rolepoints.

Aww, but the best quotes come from aetherspace! Can I ask why?

Do squads count as IC as well regardless?

Kio

Gorlois said:

Eventru said:

As a polite reminder, ship channels are consider IC. And if you have the great misfortune of someone hearing it, you'll find yourself woefully bereft of rolepoints.

Aww, but the best quotes come from aetherspace! Can I ask why?

Do squads count as IC as well regardless?

Squads and teams are also IC, last I was told.  I remember going out on a Glom aetherhunt before I left... it was awesome.  Vadi constantly checked to make sure no one was AFK, and everyone was idly chatting about Glom-related stuff.

Shedrin

Officially everything is IC except Newbies and Envoys. Even clans.

Clans aren't generally enforced though. Neither are tells generally enforced.

If you want to be really safe, keep OOC to forums/facebook/irc/skype/whatever.

Rivius

Messages are an exception though right?

Shaddus

Most other channels have their own rules, 
but are generally more tolerant of chatting and general conversation.

Just saying. >.>

Ileein

Yeah, in character chatting and general conversation. The distinction being made there is that newbie is only for specific things, while other channels are for other things that may be less specific.

Alacardael

Consider: You can talk OOC in a clan chat all you like, but if one of you decides to jump ship and divulge secrets he/she found out through the 'OOC' clan, he/she is not at fault -- he found out through an IC channel; that is, the clan chat.

Lerad

Eh, that's debatable. Clans are very loosely regulated, and can be used for either IC or OOC purposes (with admin closing an eye on the latter), but that doesn't mean that they are somehow "IC" when you are no longer a member of it, and "OOC" while you are. By default, all channels, including clans, are considered IC, but taking what is learnt from an obvious and clearly stated OOC clan into the game constitutes not just a moral and ethical break of trust, but also a clear intention of metagaming - the player is fully aware of the OOC nature of the knowledge he is using.

Sure, going by "technical" rules and lawyering, certainly it can be argued that anything said on any clan are all somehow "IC" because of the admin disclaimer that it is what all channels default to. But that's nothing more than pure sophistry and abuse of semantics that go against the spirit of the law, if there's such a thing.

Cyndarin

Zvoltz said:

Rivius said:

Messages are an exception though right?

You can look at messages much the same way you look at tells.

From HELP OOC:

Staying IN CHARACTER, and Other Restrictions
--------------------------------------------
Always stay in character (IC) on channels - you are playing the role 
of a person in a magical world called Lusternia. Talk about real life, 
other muds, or your favorite singer - this should all be done outside 
the game or, if you
must, use TELLS.

Be most careful with shouts - stay in character, watch language rules. 
Market channel is only for buying and selling: no chatting please. 
Newbie channel is for questions and answers about how to play the 
game: no chatting please.  Most other channels have their own rules, 
but are generally more tolerant of chatting and general conversation.

All channels are subject to HELP LANGUAGERULES, except clan channels.

(See also: HELP ROLEPOINTS)

Except that some(many?) admin use messages for OOC communications, dating back to when I had to poke and prod Fain for things and had to use messages when it was awkward to bring up things like order item bugs or whatever ICly. 

Ileein

What Zvoltz is saying is: treat messages like tells.

Tells are IC unless both parties agree they are OOC. This is what the "or, if you must, use TELLS" part means.

Thus, messages are OOC if both parties want them to be.

Eventru

Some admin state in their return message they view messages as OOC, yes (myself among them). This also means that we usually don't respond to them, as it's not our place to be engaging OOCly with most players. Prayers exist for a reason - if you want to talk to them ICly, use 'em! The only two instances I usually respond to messages are a.) Patron duties b.) Envoys continuing a conversation we've had. Usually the former is 'Our envoy left, Bob, Dylan and Mary are all good fighters/people who would be willing to be envoy' or 'Help, help, our guildhall is eating Telperion'. Sometimes it's 'I want to buy a beast, can I ask that it be found in your realm?', 'Help, Torili is broken' or even 'would it be possible for Torili to become a super-powerful crazy trill priest who goes out and kills Demon Lords for fun while howling Shakespearian nonsense?'. Basically, questions that are awkward and unwieldy to ask IC, like you mention. Celest is very good at delineating 'IC patron requests' and 'quasi-IC administrative patron requests', and usually err on the side of caution and use prayers (especially when I don't respond to a message).

Broadly speaking, however - if a God's return message doesn't state they view messages as OOC, assuming they do is a big risk you're taking. If there is no dire impetus for doing so, even if their return message states such a view, you shouldn't. There's no reason Pejat (random name off 'who') should be messaging me, even if he wants to give me 'a piece of his mind' - it'll usually get ignored.

Speaking to any channel, they're viewed IC. Call it metagaming, a breech of morals or ethics, whatever you like, however we do not get involved when something said on a 'OOC clan' is taken IC. OOC clans do not exist, we do not moderate them nor administrate them beyond maybe the stated expectation of conduct (sexual harassment, hate speech, etc). If players want to treat them as OOC, that's their business - we won't listen in and punish you for using OOC there. However, if you say, "Man, I hate Celina, she's so busted" and someone told Celina IC they heard it and you get punished, 'It was an OOC clan' isn't a defense. There's no expectation on Celina to change her IC response, there's no expectation of the administration to get involved, and the only person at fault is, ultimately, you - for saying it on an IC venue (a clan). Of course, you could argue you never said it, but that's true no matter the venue of origin. Ships, squads, cities, orders, guilds - these are all IC. Is it enforced? When it's come upon, yes. Do we spend our time sitting around trying to find every instance of it being misused for OOC? No, we have infinitely better things to do. However, like OOC on clans, if you talk OOCly on ship or squad talk and an admin happens upon it, you're the only one to blame for any consequence thereof (usually a rolepoint dock). 

Lerad

No one expects the admin to police metagaming. There's a lack of a helpfile for metagaming for very clear reasons. If a punishment was expected for every metagaming claim, there would be no end to the shrubbings. I never implied the admin should do so either.

That doesn't change the fact that using that information obtained from a clearly OOC avenue such as a clearly stated-as-such clan ICly is metagaming. Obviously, choosing to share sensitive information of any sort, over any channel, especially the internet, is a risk taken on your own merits. By choosing to talk about anything in an OOC clan, you willingly subject yourself to the possibility of being exploited by people who you've not only never met in person, but who you aren't even sure exist. (Everyone is a Shaddus alt) If anyone wants to say "you brought it on yourself", that's a 100% true statement.

I was disputing the idea, however, that such a thing should be acceptable. While the admin do not have the resources to police it, the players do, and should. Obviously, players don't have access to shrubbing or zapping powers, but the importance of integrity and trust is paramount in a social game such as this. If people are willing to turn a blind eye to obvious and malicious metagaming, then the damage will not be isolated to the single instance of such abuse. To post and suggest that people taking things from an OOC clan IC is supposedly "not at fault" as Alacardael says, is something I strongly disagree with.

Shaddus

@Eventru, If I can try to sum up your post;

Shiptells should be considered IC. The admin aren't likely going to go out of their way to police it, but if they do, it's our own fault. Thus, we can use it oocly, but at our own risk.

Right?

And if the above paragraph is true, how are clans any different than ship tells?

Raeri

All I got out of the big post above was that Telperion got eaten by his guildhall, explaining my not seeing him around for a while.

Rivius

So you're supposed to know if you're allowed to send a god ooc messages according to their return messages...but you don't learn their return messages until you send a message. Sounds legit

Shaddus

MSG EVENTRU Yo dawg, do you want to hang out later? There's this sweet toga party down the block and there's gonna be booze.

MSG EVENTRU Oh, my bad. That was supposed to be an OOC message.

MSG EVENTRU // I forgot these. I suck at this.

Zvoltz

Shaddus said:

@Eventru, If I can try to sum up your post; Shiptells should be considered IC. The admin aren't likely going to go out of their way to police it, but if they do, it's our own fault. Thus, we can use it oocly, but at our own risk. Right? And if the above paragraph is true, how are clans any different than ship tells?

You could say the same thing about citytells or guildtells. They should be considered IC, you can use them OOCly at your own risk. No admin is trying to give you tacit permission to use shiptells as an OOC channel, if that's what you are looking for. All players should be using shiptells as an IC channel, and all players should expect to not hear OOC chat on shiptells.

Ssaliss

My personal view on it:

Shiptell: Theoretically, anyone can lock into a ship (unless people fiddle with permissions and whatnot). Thus, it shouldn't be used for OOC.
Ct/GNT/GT/etc: People can join orgs without player involvement. Thus, they shouldn't be used for OOC.
Clans: Invitation only. I have no problem with OOC clans.
Squads: Same thing. People need to be added to squads; they can't just join them. So for smaller, temporary OOC chatting, I have no problems with that.

Raezon

We seem to have summed up the answer to these queries. You should only be OOC when speaking privately and you know the other person is agreeable, like tells (as the help file states).