I think we figured out why morbo was doing his own league of damage, on the test server. Iosai is presumably muddling through code right now, to see if it can be fixed, or if we're even correct.
After testing, my guess is that he problem has a few prongs. First is that mages can stack more multiplicative bonuses than druids, because interference is calculated on hit. this leads me to guess that its change will be multiplied through. Then each other bonus is calculated separately and (presumably) applied to the previous total, compounding. In some unknown order, they have the base damage, multiplied by the dmp, multiplied by interference cutting enemy dmp, multiplied by the demesne boost, multiplied by the artifact. It's my guess that dmp is pretty early in this stack, which means that increases to dmp are magnified... then you just stack on beer dmp and watch it go! Interference was boosting damage on the target by over 1500 damage.
The other big difference plays into that: Aerochems are the only chemancers out that have their buff dmp applied to their adjuvants, as aquachems have a divinus bonus. The increase to both dmp (which I am guessing is early in the stack, and therefore more potent) and levels of stacking is part of why Aerochem delayed damage is so much higher than aqua or wildewood delayed damage.
So that's that. Going with my report on links (1117) would change the demesne boost to dmp, which will lower the % amount it boosts and will remove a layer of boost compounding. The other change that would fix this is looking at Interference code and making it not compound damage. With those two changes, the maximum damage you should be looking at from these attacks is still decently high (~4k) but nowhere in the 'one guy comes around and instakills an entire group with 10k damage' range.
If that isn't a load of partisan bs, I don't know what is. HAHA.
But guys, chill. Let us wait a year or perhaps two to fully examine the ins and outs of these chems and then present a logical argument and not so soon after a loss in game. Oh wait.
Edit: If your post wasn't trolling, Celina, you could have fooled me. I don't know how anyone can honestly take you seriously.
Considering the fact that both Glinshari and Aquo-whatcha-ma-call-it were nerfed after a forum blast on the damage being inflicted being a bit too high (Considering a timed burst from one Aqua and one Wildewood was clearing out people in groups of 4-5), I'd like to think that Vacuum nuking me for 5k (out of 7.7k hp) damage without a single damage-boosting affliction and while sporting a brand fresh hold breath (That should be negating HALF of the damage) leaves no place for discussion about the ability being a bit too strong at present. Of course, you got to be happy with the fact that the GlomGaudi group that was fighting HalliWilde was getting wiped left and right and that you have nothing to fear about Chaos being absolved now that nice guy Morbo who would never abuse any ability holds Harmony, but we'll just have to see how things work out when we get Wyrdwood, Geochem, Pyrochem and we start doing the wiping, eh? I'm willing to bet that we'll be hearing Morbo, Veyrzhul and yourself yelling OP then!
Fact is, you are nit-picking over an issue that is a known problem because someone made a comment about your own complaints being less valid considering timing, and even then, we agreed that there was an issue with Reality and that it most certainly needs looking into rather than going on about how you were simply whining at having lost a domoth.
Did losing the domoth rattle? Yes, it did. Were better tactics employed on the HalliWilde side? Uh, no, not really. The meld was laughable at best, considering the fact that I was breaking it while still rubbing sleep from my eyes, and I won't even comment on the rest where I'd get chased down by single individuals who'd bolt the moment I decided so much as to look crossways at them, but they were all quite fierce in trying to murder me in groups of five to one. Were there greater numbers on the HalliWilde side? From what I saw, we were actually matched quite evenly in that regard, the only thing we didn't have was a ranged nuke that takes out 60%+ hp from every enemy present in one single blast.
Truthfully, I'm not quite sure if the range was working properly either. I'll go up on Muckle and check a bit later, but I'm pretty sure at least one blast caught me in over five rooms of range. Granted, I was in the process of trying to dodge others attacking me at the time and I wasn't exactly pausing to scent and see where Morbo was, but if he was at the domoth where I think he was, I was definitely further away than the max range of a fully linked chem could hit me.
Now, someone might say that it came from the link with a melder, but the skill explicitly states that the damage is increased while in the demesne of a linked melder, so I'm thinking that the moment I stepped outside the meld, I shouldn't have been getting hit for the same amount, but that wasn't the case. Unless, of course, it gives a buff to targets outside the meld while the caster is in the meld, in which case that is another thing that needs addressing, and if Aquotox/Glinshari are consistently doing 2k-ish damage versus a 5k blast from Vacuum and that is only due to the boost from standing in a linked meld, then that boost also needs looking into.
Think I'm whining? Maybe I partially am, but the fact still remains that the amount of damage being dished out there is a bit too much anyway you look at it, especially in the way it is being delivered with the warning messages not really showing up at all. Now, I'm not going to start nit-picking over who it was and what said person is famous for, you should draw your own conclusions considering what was going on during the stratagem/illusion fiasco.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I can't believe you guys are going through all this trouble to post book reports when everyone mostly agrees chems needs looking at and Iosai is hard at work right now figuring it out. Pipe down.
Iasmos, you don't even play anymore. Quit flagging posts.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Simple problem: Adjuvants/equivalents are stupid and have no place anywhere. Simple solution: Delete them, replace them with active skills that have a place.
Simple problem: Adjuvants/equivalents are stupid and have no place anywhere. Simple solution: Delete them, replace them with active skills that have a place.
While I most certainly agree, I don't really see it happening.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
We're brainstorming interesting alternatives. I think we've actually hit on one that follows the pattern of these skills, in that some version of it could be used uniformly across all the chemantics skills, though the mechanic allows for unique adaptations in each skillset.
While we're looking at fixes for Chemantics and possibly change Interference to not with with them, can we possibly rework the parts of Phantasms to work outside demenses?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
While we're looking at fixes for Chemantics and possibly change Interference to not with with them, can we possibly rework the parts of Phantasms to work outside demenses?
Phantomspheres outside meld? Ummmmm, no. That's really the only phantasm ability that comes to mind that requires a meld to work. Well, that and stolensight/stalker, but those aren't exactly the kind of abilities that are gamebreaking either. Would have to certainly institute a cure of some sort that doesn't require another illusionist to dispel it if they're made to work outside meld though.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Elanorwen: what you are missing is that a "5 room radius" is actually pretty large. If you stand in the middle of Muckle, nearly every room (excepting the ship) is in range. So that makes the "it is capped at 5 rooms" argument just a bit less potent to me.
It is why I'd like to see the ranged aspect of it tweaked somehow (put up a few ideas, including one from Enyalida). Being able to just pick one room in the middle and hit the attack without having to know where anyone actually is just feels a tad strange, especially since it carries none of the downsides to melds (which now only hit the rooms around you anyways).
Elanorwen: what you are missing is that a "5 room radius" is actually pretty large. If you stand in the middle of Muckle, nearly every room (excepting the ship) is in range. So that makes the "it is capped at 5 rooms" argument just a bit less potent to me.
It is why I'd like to see the ranged aspect of it tweaked somehow (put up a few ideas, including one from Enyalida). Being able to just pick one room in the middle and hit the attack without having to know where anyone actually is just feels a tad strange, especially since it carries none of the downsides to melds (which now only hit the rooms around you anyways).
The range does need work, maybe even lessen the damage from each room outwards.
At one point, you could stand in the "Hallways of Avechna" room and hit someone outside a Seal cave. Hopefully they've fixed that.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Once someone's had time to catch up with the abuse-flagged posts - and everyone's had time to cool down - we can re-open the thread. Maybe cooler heads will reign then (maybe not).
I suggest everyone step back and recognize there's been some misapplication of tone - things were said in a manner intended as matter-of-fact but have been coming across as offensive or accusatory (see: Celina implying "evil" orgs tend to attract more PK-min max sorts, Malicia saw (and on first read, I know I and others did too) an attempt to imply admin bias in favour of "good" orgs). Everyone needs to calm down, check their tone, and recognize that neither of you are really out to defend something that obviously isn't okay, or to make it into a witch hunt.
Obviously, 7+ thousand damage on a bomb attack with 0 afflictions sounds deeply suspicious, so we're going to have to look at it. I did last night, Enyalida did some testing with Ushaara, Iosai is looking into fixes.
Okay. I'm going to reopen the thread, as you've had a couple hours to cool down.
I'm going to say this, though, to the general topic:
These are new mechanics, pretty broadly. It's the equivalent of adding a new archetype, near enough. They are nothing like the mesne users of the past - and with them, there's a desire for new mechanics. Thematically, they're from a very harsh reality wherein everything was pretty quickly subjugated by the Goloth and his forces. It brought about - forced - new ways of using the elements.
Part of the goal was to offer an alternative to demesnes for mages. Part of it was to utilize newer mechanics that focused on this aspect of mages wherein they manipulate reagents as costs. Beyond that, it's really up to Estarra to give more in terms of design and intention - it's not my project, nor my design. I can't answer your questions, nor will any other admin.
In terms of coding - one admin is handling the coding of all the skillsets. I have another project (which may or may not be making my godrealm so expansive the game is renamed Eventurnia), Estarra has her own projects, and so forth for everyone else who codes. This is, time has shown again an again, the most efficient way to do projects and design, as it quickly becomes a matter of too many chefs spoiling the pot. So you'll see other projects being finished in the weeks or months to come - and I point all of this out because I want to make you aware, the skillsets are not being delayed. They're coming, steadily and ever onward, they're coming. And Iosai is handling the Special Reports, as she does all envoy stuff. That should be apparent. (And she's awesome)
On the topic of "hot fixes" - these tend to be rare and only done when there's something blatantly and seriously problematic (see: massive bomb damage on people with 0 afflictions). Elsewise, we prefer to see how things play out over time, then address them in special reports. Problems can arise in that envoys feel mechanics are easier toss aside to address weaknesses or undermining strengths, but usually a gist of the problem can be derived and an attempt to resolve it made (on the presumption a problem is perceived as existing).
However - I think everyone, on all sides, knows that, report done, there isn't necessarily going to be a perfectly balanced skillset in its wake. It's nice to hope, but that's idealistic at best.
So there will be a period of time where they may be weaker (or stronger) than is ideal. We face this growing pain with every new class - and that's just the nature of things. Probably part of it is exacerbated with the reality that we see more releases before the previous one is ideal - and that can be frustrating for some. Many people get the impression everything goes on hold for one project - or that once the project moves on, it's abandoned and forgotten. Neither are true. Sometimes, we simply have faith in the envoys to find and suggest fixes for the rough edges (though they may not agree they're just "rough edges" sometimes!).
So, as you go forward, I hope the conversation is geared towards adjusting things so that they mesh into existing combat. They needn't be I balancing while adding new dimensions or opportunities. There are aspects of the mechanics (nigh unblockable set of four affliction hits per 'round', reactive afflictions like sheens and branches, "reaction" abilities that use your passives to create a powerful release) that are, from my impression, unlikely to change. Solutions like "delete AoE" usually aren't going to be productive, so it's best to err away from them. That doesn't mean there aren't other routes to take (drastically reducing damage and switching to afflictions or other drains like tiredness, hunger, mana, ego, etc) while maintaining those mechanics. The best advice I can give anyone is to try to work within the boundaries but don't be afraid to colour outside the lines - if there's anything I've learned over the years from working with Estarra is that she's usually able to find a way to make things "work", and will always prefer to do so before scrapping something (most anything). I have great faith in her, and I think anyone who has worked with her as closely as most the admin have will say the same.
I'll try to read the thread, see where opinions are, and keep them in mind when I offer my opinion when special reports come through, as well as envoy reports. I know other, less vocal admin do the same.
So! Good luck. Play nice.
(PS: Let's try to be conscious of our tone. We may mean one thing, but many others will mistake it as something else. Should it happen, let's be apologetic and emphasize what we meant - not aggressive or defensive. The medium is text, not spoken word, and things are easily lost. And I think most of us - myself included - forget that.)
Does damage from the woodmatics AoE attacks scale to the number of potential targets? If not, that seems like a possible way to prevent one or two powerful characters from wiping out a room full of enemies, while still (potentially) allowing it to be used as a finisher in single combat.
And as for the 'woodmatics for 1v1, melders for groups', it's pretty obvious to me why some of the administration might confuse melders as being a group focused class: they're thinking about old demenses. Now, I've never experienced old demense firsthand, so I may have some of the specifics wrong, but from my understanding, 1) old demense were much larger, 2) All of their effects hit across demense, and 3) Protection scroll didn't protect from most (any?) of those effects. Back then, melds could be extremely disruptive to groups at quite a distance, and you certainly wanted to avoid fighting in an enemy meld. Now, non-aqua demense do relatively little at range (walls being the worst of it, in general), and even up close, where most of the effects are functioning, protection scroll means that the mage can generally only target a few people with the majority of their effects, so it's not so fearsome to fight in an enemy demense. Not only that, but because melds can't overlap, any additional mages can't fight at full power, making them even less desirable in group combat (at least for their primaries, Psionics makes groups of mages useful wherever).
From a player and envoy perspective, I'd really appreciate if one of two things would happen: 1) We stopped getting told that this is meant to be "1v1". It's just not. Any class designed and built around doing AoE attacks to all of their enemies present is just not a one versus one class. Period. It needs to be treated and balanced as a class that is what it is, not what it is "intended" to be. 2) Redesign them to fit the stated intention.
Now, I'm pretty sure that #2 is not going to happen. It's a huge amount of rework and headache. So, let's just agree to call a spade a spade and treat (and balance) these specs as group combat skills.
When I've used the term "more 1v1 oriented", I was really mis-speaking. They're divorced of their demesne, and are therefore more mobile. As a cost of that, they're less capable of dealing passive, regular afflictions to multiple people.
It doesn't completely remove group combat from their purview, but it does to some degree.
I was careful to avoid using that term in favour of the more accurate suggestion they are no longer meld reliant.
Well, the other issue is that while they are less capable of dealing passive afflictions, they don't have any active afflictions to pick up the slack. We (wildewoods) have a decent stack of passives, because I had our special report edit our passive situation into a nice combo, otherwise even that would fall kinda flat.
I think that one of the big problems that most (educated/knowledgable and reasonable) commentors have with some of these mechanics, or these skillsets as a whole isn't necessarily that the damage is too strong or too weak, or that the afflictions are too strong or too weak, but that the underlying mechanics (however strong or weak the effects) are flawed or otherwise undesirable. I know that this has been my major issue!
The underlying concept behind some Wildewood skills does not lend itself to good balancing or good gameplay, in my opinion. With some tweaks to those underlying afflictions, ones that go beyond sliding up and down damage values or swapping in or out afflictions, the skillset has a lot of good ideas and great writing, it's just bogged down by problematic execution. If the thing holding back refurbishing it is a lack of manpower, sign me up, I'll lose my passwords right now and volunteer, these issues frustrate me so much. They frustrate me so badly because I can see the effort put in, and I can see massive potential for unique, interesting, and fun mechanics here that preserve the flavour of the existing work, that were lost in a copy/paste skillset.
If flat volunteering to work on new skillsets isn't an option (which I suspect it really isn't), I hope we've shown that we are willing to put in the conceptual/planning work needed to polish these skillsets and smooth out the rough bumps (like these damage bomb skills), but we cannot do that if we aren't given license to do so. We can spout good ideas all day, but if they aren't going anywhere, we're just spinning our wheels.
I think what we -don't- need to do is start throwing out accusations and random numbers without solid proof. Stuff like "Entrias was doing 3500 damage every few seconds and hitting everyone in five rooms probably" isn't helpful.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm not sure where anyone has been accusatory (except maybe Malicia's hidden posts, which I didn't read, maybe?) so far. I think that at this point, I am fairly content with Enyalida's word on her testing bout with Ushaara on the test servers.
At the same time, I'd like to remind everyone that Thul's primary concern is not about the actual damage numbers. For him and for me as well, it's the range + aoe. The numbers of the Aerochems at the moment are something we can reasonably expect the admin to investigate in detail and possibly tweak, going by Eventru's post. So the huge bombs are not really a concern. We can all have reasonably trust in the admin that they'll look into it.
Like Eventru also mentioned, however, these are new mechanics. We haven't seen them before. I don't think we want to be scrapping them before they're even fully released, but there is absolutely no rule anywhere that we can't talk about their potential effects based on what we've observed or know. This IS a few months after they have been released, and I don't think Thul's analysis is being reactive to a single buggy instance of damage. Try reading his opening post again, and his follow up post somewhere in the middle of all these - he states his concerns pretty clearly. I believe that Thul is correct when he claims that chemantics will eventually have a huge impact on the way group fights are organised and fought - and by extension, have a huge impact on the game itself outside of group combat.
I don't know about Thul, but I came to participate in this thread because I was eager to hear more of what other people thought these new skillsets (now that they've been released for a while) will change about the combat landscape. If good ideas pop up during the discussion, that's icing on the cake. I don't really expect the skillsets to be suddenly altered or changed.
I'm not sure where anyone has been accusatory (except maybe Malicia's hidden posts, which I didn't read, maybe?) so far. I think that at this point, I am fairly content with Enyalida's word on her testing bout with Ushaara on the test servers.
At the same time, I'd like to remind everyone that Thul's primary concern is not about the actual damage numbers. For him and for me as well, it's the range + aoe. The numbers of the Aerochems at the moment are something we can reasonably expect the admin to investigate in detail and possibly tweak, going by Eventru's post. So the huge bombs are not really a concern. We can all have reasonably trust in the admin that they'll look into it.
Like Eventru also mentioned, however, these are new mechanics. We haven't seen them before. I don't think we want to be scrapping them before they're even fully released, but there is absolutely no rule anywhere that we can't talk about their potential effects based on what we've observed or know. This IS a few months after they have been released, and I don't think Thul's analysis is being reactive to a single buggy instance of damage. Try reading his opening post again, and his follow up post somewhere in the middle of all these - he states his concerns pretty clearly. I believe that Thul is correct when he claims that chemantics will eventually have a huge impact on the way group fights are organised and fought - and by extension, have a huge impact on the game itself outside of group combat.
I don't know about Thul, but I came to participate in this thread because I was eager to hear more of what other people thought these new skillsets (now that they've been released for a while) will change about the combat landscape. If good ideas pop up during the discussion, that's icing on the cake. I don't really expect the skillsets to be suddenly altered or changed.
Yeah, I was speaking pretty broadly, particularly to the general conversation. As always people switch into envoy mode (not a bad thing) and talk about what they want to do and what have you - I wasn't referencing Thul's concerns/comments/thoughts.
I don't really mind hearing how people think how they'll effect combat (and that's more what I was hoping to hear), and how they felt regarding it. We'll see how things play out, I'm not too too concerned.
AOE damage can very quickly get out of hand in group fights since its
impact grows potentially with group size. While Lusternia has a few crowd-control (melds, bard songs), 'knockback' (scissorkick, Crow squall, Aeromancer whirlwind) and AOE healing abilities (some song/meld effects, avatar aura, Healing/Stag sacrifice which kill the caster), these are not adequate to counter large scale AOE damage, and while evading the damage is an option, that is also greatly more difficult when the effect stretches over several rooms in radius.
The best step to not let the AOE
bombs become an issue is probably to strictly limit the damage to the
room the ability is used in. I believe that this step will be fairly
vital to prevent other classes from being completely overshadowed. Another
option is to make ALL of the AOE damage abilties affliction-dependent, perhaps to an extent close to Necroscream carillionknell, which does really
measly damage without supporting affs, but can do formidable damage with
a few affs. Yet another option is to either introduce a period of
immunity after being hit by such an effect or to have the damage be
delivered over time via an affliction that you can only have once (like
the telepathy ego drain). Alternatively, if complete immunity is not
wanted, damage could scale down not only with higher number of affected
people, but also with the amount of times said people already were hit
in the last X seconds/minute/whatever time.
Time slows as frigid coils of cloud contract around you, squeezing the air from your lungs while lightning burns across your skin where the tendrils of cold mist cling to you.
You are afflicted with timewarp.
Time constricts around Shuyin as frigid coils of cloud contract around him, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to him.
Shuyin's wounds immediately close up, but he pales and looks drawn out.
Time constricts around Akyaevin as frigid coils of cloud contract around him, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to him.
Time constricts around Cauthorn as frigid coils of cloud contract around him, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to him.
Time constricts around Eritheyl as frigid coils of cloud contract around him, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to him.
Time constricts around Nihta as frigid coils of cloud contract around her, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to her.
Time constricts around Synkarin as frigid coils of cloud contract around him, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to him.
Time constricts around Xenthos as frigid coils of cloud contract around him, squeezing tightly as lightning races through the tendrils of cold mist which cling to him.
@Silvanus and, as it turns out, it is actually not Vacuum, but Quantum catalyst, costing 5p to use with only two reagents, rather than four. Fun times.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
It uses two fields, which would have to be re-raised again if you're talking about people spamming it.
You know, any and all of you are welcome to approach me ingame and test it out.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
It uses two fields, which would have to be re-raised again if you're talking about people spamming it.
You know, any and all of you are welcome to approach me ingame and test it out.
So... a bomb every 18 seconds by every aerochem present? Doesn't sound like too much of a deal if you ask me. Granted, power will need to regen, but at 5p... uhh, yeah... could probably drop three, refresh, drop three more, especially when it is in line with the damage of unleash staff/cudgel which is at 10p and dumps all your mana.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Yes, every combat aerochem, which is....Me and morbo. Ioni/ciaran are mancers, Tulemrah is a Chem but doesn't fight often, and lleuke is a mancer.
Meanwhile in that 18 seconds, my offense from aerochem fields is cut in half or worse until i re-raise my fields, i have to reject lust/love tics, and various other issues. Yes, chemantics needs work. At no point have I ever denied that. I'm just saying that people are crying about Lusternia's "glass cannon" and not realising that once our burst is done, we're moderately useless for a while.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Activate catalyst; regain balance; restart fields; catalyst hits ten seconds after activated.
At my speediest, I'm able to cast this at ten seconds between bursts, at five power a burst, plus 3 to raise my fields for quickness. So, 8 power every ten seconds to deal my 3500 damage. That's not sustainable by any means, and I'm easily killed.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm feeling like going back and flagging this line of comments. We're all aware of how the skills work (or at least, anyone who has been paying attention and reading), and how much damage they currently do, and will likely do when fixed. Reiterating that information adds nothing to the discussion, please stop going back and reposting logs telling us what we already know, and 'debating' things we already know.
Considering you can do that burst at range and theoretically time it with other chems, three chems launching it at roughly the same time -will- drop multiple people easily at the cost of 5p/person casting. Now you tell me how there isn't a problem with that? I'm a melder... likely to still be a melder after whatever-wood comes out for BT. I can unleash cudgel and do... the same damage as you (100% cutting, though), provided you're in my meld and provided you don't shield in the time it takes for the damage to resolve (There is a meld-wide warning message). Sure, I can theoretically refresh self/power and do it again as soon as I get balance back, but that's where it ends for me. I can't repeat that act until at least one more hour has passed, and even then... I'll likely only be killing people under severe lag, as I'm constricted to 4s between the two hits. If you're range-nuking, your offense isn't suffering for 18 seconds. You can theoretically sit in the next room and just spam that while the rest of your group engages and drops people left and right with pure damage kills.
It may not be as big a problem as we're making it out to be, but it definitely isn't as small a thing as you're making it out to be either. It also looks like the damage scales based on health, so a warrior with 12K+ health is still vulnerable to your attack. As a comparison, Silvanus obviously took 3k damage from that hit, while I took almost 5k with my higher hp. Anyways, there's no real point in continuing this discussion, just have to remember the deathsights popping up last night, with Morbo dropping 3+ people in single hits without even being in line of sight where mages/druids can fire back at him and possibly try and do something in response to his attack. Iosai is on the case, working to resolve the issue, so we'll wait and see how that plays out before going back to this.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Yes, you're absolutely right. Spending 15 power would kill people left and right. Imagine that.
It looks like Enyalida is going to call the forum police on us, so I guess we're done. Prod me in-game if you want to test things.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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Fact is, you are nit-picking over an issue that is a known problem because someone made a comment about your own complaints being less valid considering timing, and even then, we agreed that there was an issue with Reality and that it most certainly needs looking into rather than going on about how you were simply whining at having lost a domoth.
Did losing the domoth rattle? Yes, it did. Were better tactics employed on the HalliWilde side? Uh, no, not really. The meld was laughable at best, considering the fact that I was breaking it while still rubbing sleep from my eyes, and I won't even comment on the rest where I'd get chased down by single individuals who'd bolt the moment I decided so much as to look crossways at them, but they were all quite fierce in trying to murder me in groups of five to one. Were there greater numbers on the HalliWilde side? From what I saw, we were actually matched quite evenly in that regard, the only thing we didn't have was a ranged nuke that takes out 60%+ hp from every enemy present in one single blast.
Truthfully, I'm not quite sure if the range was working properly either. I'll go up on Muckle and check a bit later, but I'm pretty sure at least one blast caught me in over five rooms of range. Granted, I was in the process of trying to dodge others attacking me at the time and I wasn't exactly pausing to scent and see where Morbo was, but if he was at the domoth where I think he was, I was definitely further away than the max range of a fully linked chem could hit me.
Now, someone might say that it came from the link with a melder, but the skill explicitly states that the damage is increased while in the demesne of a linked melder, so I'm thinking that the moment I stepped outside the meld, I shouldn't have been getting hit for the same amount, but that wasn't the case. Unless, of course, it gives a buff to targets outside the meld while the caster is in the meld, in which case that is another thing that needs addressing, and if Aquotox/Glinshari are consistently doing 2k-ish damage versus a 5k blast from Vacuum and that is only due to the boost from standing in a linked meld, then that boost also needs looking into.
Think I'm whining? Maybe I partially am, but the fact still remains that the amount of damage being dished out there is a bit too much anyway you look at it, especially in the way it is being delivered with the warning messages not really showing up at all. Now, I'm not going to start nit-picking over who it was and what said person is famous for, you should draw your own conclusions considering what was going on during the stratagem/illusion fiasco.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Edit: See Enyalida's post.
Simple solution: Delete them, replace them with active skills that have a place.
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Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
It is why I'd like to see the ranged aspect of it tweaked somehow (put up a few ideas, including one from Enyalida). Being able to just pick one room in the middle and hit the attack without having to know where anyone actually is just feels a tad strange, especially since it carries none of the downsides to melds (which now only hit the rooms around you anyways).
At one point, you could stand in the "Hallways of Avechna" room and hit someone outside a Seal cave. Hopefully they've fixed that.
Once someone's had time to catch up with the abuse-flagged posts - and everyone's had time to cool down - we can re-open the thread. Maybe cooler heads will reign then (maybe not).
I suggest everyone step back and recognize there's been some misapplication of tone - things were said in a manner intended as matter-of-fact but have been coming across as offensive or accusatory (see: Celina implying "evil" orgs tend to attract more PK-min max sorts, Malicia saw (and on first read, I know I and others did too) an attempt to imply admin bias in favour of "good" orgs). Everyone needs to calm down, check their tone, and recognize that neither of you are really out to defend something that obviously isn't okay, or to make it into a witch hunt.
Obviously, 7+ thousand damage on a bomb attack with 0 afflictions sounds deeply suspicious, so we're going to have to look at it. I did last night, Enyalida did some testing with Ushaara, Iosai is looking into fixes.
So y'all need to calm down. All of you.
I'm going to say this, though, to the general topic:
These are new mechanics, pretty broadly. It's the equivalent of adding a new archetype, near enough. They are nothing like the mesne users of the past - and with them, there's a desire for new mechanics. Thematically, they're from a very harsh reality wherein everything was pretty quickly subjugated by the Goloth and his forces. It brought about - forced - new ways of using the elements.
Part of the goal was to offer an alternative to demesnes for mages. Part of it was to utilize newer mechanics that focused on this aspect of mages wherein they manipulate reagents as costs. Beyond that, it's really up to Estarra to give more in terms of design and intention - it's not my project, nor my design. I can't answer your questions, nor will any other admin.
In terms of coding - one admin is handling the coding of all the skillsets. I have another project (which may or may not be making my godrealm so expansive the game is renamed Eventurnia), Estarra has her own projects, and so forth for everyone else who codes. This is, time has shown again an again, the most efficient way to do projects and design, as it quickly becomes a matter of too many chefs spoiling the pot. So you'll see other projects being finished in the weeks or months to come - and I point all of this out because I want to make you aware, the skillsets are not being delayed. They're coming, steadily and ever onward, they're coming. And Iosai is handling the Special Reports, as she does all envoy stuff. That should be apparent. (And she's awesome)
On the topic of "hot fixes" - these tend to be rare and only done when there's something blatantly and seriously problematic (see: massive bomb damage on people with 0 afflictions). Elsewise, we prefer to see how things play out over time, then address them in special reports. Problems can arise in that envoys feel mechanics are easier toss aside to address weaknesses or undermining strengths, but usually a gist of the problem can be derived and an attempt to resolve it made (on the presumption a problem is perceived as existing).
However - I think everyone, on all sides, knows that, report done, there isn't necessarily going to be a perfectly balanced skillset in its wake. It's nice to hope, but that's idealistic at best.
So there will be a period of time where they may be weaker (or stronger) than is ideal. We face this growing pain with every new class - and that's just the nature of things. Probably part of it is exacerbated with the reality that we see more releases before the previous one is ideal - and that can be frustrating for some. Many people get the impression everything goes on hold for one project - or that once the project moves on, it's abandoned and forgotten. Neither are true. Sometimes, we simply have faith in the envoys to find and suggest fixes for the rough edges (though they may not agree they're just "rough edges" sometimes!).
So, as you go forward, I hope the conversation is geared towards adjusting things so that they mesh into existing combat. They needn't be I balancing while adding new dimensions or opportunities. There are aspects of the mechanics (nigh unblockable set of four affliction hits per 'round', reactive afflictions like sheens and branches, "reaction" abilities that use your passives to create a powerful release) that are, from my impression, unlikely to change. Solutions like "delete AoE" usually aren't going to be productive, so it's best to err away from them. That doesn't mean there aren't other routes to take (drastically reducing damage and switching to afflictions or other drains like tiredness, hunger, mana, ego, etc) while maintaining those mechanics. The best advice I can give anyone is to try to work within the boundaries but don't be afraid to colour outside the lines - if there's anything I've learned over the years from working with Estarra is that she's usually able to find a way to make things "work", and will always prefer to do so before scrapping something (most anything). I have great faith in her, and I think anyone who has worked with her as closely as most the admin have will say the same.
I'll try to read the thread, see where opinions are, and keep them in mind when I offer my opinion when special reports come through, as well as envoy reports. I know other, less vocal admin do the same.
So! Good luck. Play nice.
(PS: Let's try to be conscious of our tone. We may mean one thing, but many others will mistake it as something else. Should it happen, let's be apologetic and emphasize what we meant - not aggressive or defensive. The medium is text, not spoken word, and things are easily lost. And I think most of us - myself included - forget that.)
And as for the 'woodmatics for 1v1, melders for groups', it's pretty obvious to me why some of the administration might confuse melders as being a group focused class: they're thinking about old demenses. Now, I've never experienced old demense firsthand, so I may have some of the specifics wrong, but from my understanding, 1) old demense were much larger, 2) All of their effects hit across demense, and 3) Protection scroll didn't protect from most (any?) of those effects. Back then, melds could be extremely disruptive to groups at quite a distance, and you certainly wanted to avoid fighting in an enemy meld. Now, non-aqua demense do relatively little at range (walls being the worst of it, in general), and even up close, where most of the effects are functioning, protection scroll means that the mage can generally only target a few people with the majority of their effects, so it's not so fearsome to fight in an enemy demense. Not only that, but because melds can't overlap, any additional mages can't fight at full power, making them even less desirable in group combat (at least for their primaries, Psionics makes groups of mages useful wherever).
From a player and envoy perspective, I'd really appreciate if one of two things would happen:
1) We stopped getting told that this is meant to be "1v1". It's just not. Any class designed and built around doing AoE attacks to all of their enemies present is just not a one versus one class. Period. It needs to be treated and balanced as a class that is what it is, not what it is "intended" to be.
2) Redesign them to fit the stated intention.
Now, I'm pretty sure that #2 is not going to happen. It's a huge amount of rework and headache. So, let's just agree to call a spade a spade and treat (and balance) these specs as group combat skills.
(Though I would also be quite fine with #2!)
It doesn't completely remove group combat from their purview, but it does to some degree.
I was careful to avoid using that term in favour of the more accurate suggestion they are no longer meld reliant.
I think that one of the big problems that most (educated/knowledgable and reasonable) commentors have with some of these mechanics, or these skillsets as a whole isn't necessarily that the damage is too strong or too weak, or that the afflictions are too strong or too weak, but that the underlying mechanics (however strong or weak the effects) are flawed or otherwise undesirable. I know that this has been my major issue!
At the same time, I'd like to remind everyone that Thul's primary concern is not about the actual damage numbers. For him and for me as well, it's the range + aoe. The numbers of the Aerochems at the moment are something we can reasonably expect the admin to investigate in detail and possibly tweak, going by Eventru's post. So the huge bombs are not really a concern. We can all have reasonably trust in the admin that they'll look into it.
Like Eventru also mentioned, however, these are new mechanics. We haven't seen them before. I don't think we want to be scrapping them before they're even fully released, but there is absolutely no rule anywhere that we can't talk about their potential effects based on what we've observed or know. This IS a few months after they have been released, and I don't think Thul's analysis is being reactive to a single buggy instance of damage. Try reading his opening post again, and his follow up post somewhere in the middle of all these - he states his concerns pretty clearly. I believe that Thul is correct when he claims that chemantics will eventually have a huge impact on the way group fights are organised and fought - and by extension, have a huge impact on the game itself outside of group combat.
I don't know about Thul, but I came to participate in this thread because I was eager to hear more of what other people thought these new skillsets (now that they've been released for a while) will change about the combat landscape. If good ideas pop up during the discussion, that's icing on the cake. I don't really expect the skillsets to be suddenly altered or changed.
The best step to not let the AOE bombs become an issue is probably to strictly limit the damage to the room the ability is used in. I believe that this step will be fairly vital to prevent other classes from being completely overshadowed.
Another option is to make ALL of the AOE damage abilties affliction-dependent, perhaps to an extent close to Necroscream carillionknell, which does really measly damage without supporting affs, but can do formidable damage with a few affs.
Yet another option is to either introduce a period of immunity after being hit by such an effect or to have the damage be delivered over time via an affliction that you can only have once (like the telepathy ego drain).
Alternatively, if complete immunity is not wanted, damage could scale down not only with higher number of affected people, but also with the amount of times said people already were hit in the last X seconds/minute/whatever time.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
You know, any and all of you are welcome to approach me ingame and test it out.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Meanwhile in that 18 seconds, my offense from aerochem fields is cut in half or worse until i re-raise my fields, i have to reject lust/love tics, and various other issues. Yes, chemantics needs work. At no point have I ever denied that. I'm just saying that people are crying about Lusternia's "glass cannon" and not realising that once our burst is done, we're moderately useless for a while.
Activate catalyst;
regain balance;
restart fields;
catalyst hits ten seconds after activated.
At my speediest, I'm able to cast this at ten seconds between bursts, at five power a burst, plus 3 to raise my fields for quickness. So, 8 power every ten seconds to deal my 3500 damage. That's not sustainable by any means, and I'm easily killed.
It may not be as big a problem as we're making it out to be, but it definitely isn't as small a thing as you're making it out to be either. It also looks like the damage scales based on health, so a warrior with 12K+ health is still vulnerable to your attack. As a comparison, Silvanus obviously took 3k damage from that hit, while I took almost 5k with my higher hp. Anyways, there's no real point in continuing this discussion, just have to remember the deathsights popping up last night, with Morbo dropping 3+ people in single hits without even being in line of sight where mages/druids can fire back at him and possibly try and do something in response to his attack. Iosai is on the case, working to resolve the issue, so we'll wait and see how that plays out before going back to this.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
It looks like Enyalida is going to call the forum police on us, so I guess we're done. Prod me in-game if you want to test things.