After some contemplating on this, I agree with @Saran 's recent post and would like to expand upon it, but first I would like to lead those interested upon my train of thought.
Firstly, please everyone take into consideration that communes have for some time been asking for their skills to be brought in line to the "more shiny and awesome" introduced skills later in the game. Now that that is said, I'd like to point out some reasoning behind this stance.
Let us consider: GUARDIAN VS WICCAN
Now both Guardians and Wiccans are considered the more 'spiritual focus' for cities and communes and their kits relate to this. Looking at Nihilists and Celestians, they both start out with their basic kits of Rituals and Cosmic, which shows a focus to their more 'mysterious elements of the universe'. Upon becoming masters in this, they are able to take up the skills of their Guardian duties, however, you'll find that though they are somewhat similar, they both go in quite the opposite direction. Where Celestians focus on healing and absolution, you find Nihilists focusing upon torment and corruption. Their kits are natural enemies to one another, but both are built around a different setup. For this reason, they each have -different- primary skills -and- secondary skills which allows them much more flexibility in combat, balance and flavor.
Now, taking Moondancers and Shadowdancers, they both take up Nature and Totems, and then both take up Wiccan and their totem aspect. Wiccan is the bread and butter of their combat combos and theme, yet they have a near identitcal kit other than 3 'unique' fae to summon. That aside, they both focus around the same kill concept: Drain Mana to Toad, yet they have differentiating secondary kits that should somehow both be effective for the same strategy? Is it truly surprising that one would seem superior or both not working out well in this context?
Shared skills always present this problem, as they require further balancing to try and make the kit usable by both factions, but will generally just birth a skillset that is very lacking.
Let's take another example:
DRUIDS VS MAGES
Mages and Druids have always been incorporated to function around their biggest mechanical theme: Making a meld.
A meld is a Mage's bread and butter and is where their true power lies. Yes they have telekinesis and telepathy, which i'll get to later, but melding is where a Mage's design focus was placed. Now all mages start the same with illusions and elementalism to eventually take phantasms and their elemental focus. Phantasms are generally used for secondary concepts to enhance on their Meld abilities and terts anyway. Each Mage gets their own personified Meld type that is associated strongly to the theme they represent and is able to be easily adjusted for balance reasons.
Taking a look at Druids, they receive the opposite in this case....but not for the better. Their primary skill, being their melds, is shared between the two factions, and their secondary skill which is suppose to be used to capitalize on their melds, has to somehow function well for both Druid types upon the same primary skill....That is just a recipe for disaster as is.
To emphasize on my point, let us look at Stag and Crow for Druid melds. One kit tries to focus on the idea of eventually having a Health-kill method, and the other tries to focus on the idea of a Mana-kill method, which are somehow suppose to capitalize upon the SAME and shared primary skill of Druidry....How in the world would one skill even have the means to drop one's health and mana both to suitable levels to begin with? It's just a mess.
To wrap things up: I strongly suggest a separation of the Wiccan and Druid factions and, like the cities, giving them each unique primary kits that they can use and capitalize correctly on with their theme imbued in it. When a class has a unique kit all to itself, it makes it -far- easier to balance around and produce good results without the fear of overpowering another class.
Note: I was pleased when the introduced of -WOOD specs brought to us a unique Wood skill for Serenwilde and Glomdoring. -THIS- is what I mean. By introducing Wyrdenwood and Wildewood, it made it much easier to balance in the future the kits of each, as they both have their own unique setups.
I'm just telling you, because you mentioned not knowing what the overhaul had in store. I've already said my bit further up.
More just secretly hoping the overhaul magically fixed things in some way. But from all I have seen so far, it hasn't. All this has been a sore spot for me for years.
The RP is great, and that's what I love most about Lusty, so I might stay. Come to MDs for RP, everybody, just don't expect a whole lot else.
@Arcanis I would dearly love to see that separation between the factions, and indeed even within orgs. It would help a lot. When I was truly around, the envoy situation was always "but this buff will make SGs OP" or things of that nature, whether it was something we desperately needed or not.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
1) While the name and some skills overlap with druidry, there aren't exactly the same, there's differences between the skillsets that makes your argument that 'they share the skillset' obsolete because it's possible to have unique-guild only skills within the skillset
2) Wiccans aren't really worse off than any other guild in Lusternia. People make a huge deal out of illuminati but at the end of the day, they're just as beatable as the rest and probably right on par with Nihilists/Researchers/Celestines, so it's not an issue of 'fancy newfangled classes.' Some classes are stronger against them and some classes are weaker. Yes, they are pretty 1-dimensional unless you get creative, but they are by no means weak. MD's are more so than SD's but that in itself is probably what turns people away. It's pretty boring just to spam the same triple sleep attack over and over until it works.
1) While the name and some skills overlap with druidry, there aren't exactly the same, there's differences between the skillsets that makes your argument that 'they share the skillset' obsolete because it's possible to have unique-guild only skills within the skillset
2) Wiccans aren't really worse off than any other guild in Lusternia. People make a huge deal out of illuminati but at the end of the day, they're just as beatable as the rest and probably right on par with Nihilists/Researchers/Celestines, so it's not an issue of 'fancy newfangled classes.' Some classes are stronger against them and some classes are weaker. Yes, they are pretty 1-dimensional unless you get creative, but they are by no means weak. MD's are more so than SD's but that in itself is probably what turns people away. It's pretty boring just to spam the same triple sleep attack over and over until it works.
Somehow I can always expect your commentary to my posts to appear on any thread, no matter theme, I seem to post to. Just such an unusual occurrence...
To reply to your objections. A shared skill with "guild-specific' abilities does not a balanced skill make. Yes any skill -can- have 1 or 2 guild specific skills but anyone can tell you that that is not enough to try and balance an entire class. We can even take your example of the Wiccan and Druidry skills and point out how even with the 'specific skills', they still have much to be desired. Additionally, extra guild skills in a skill does not deter from the fact that they share other skills as well, including terts. Unless the coding team was looking to place several specific abilities in each skill here and there to try and attempt some measure of balance, it'll just end up a big mess.
It's far easier to simply split off the primary skill and develop a skill unique to each that is built from the base-up around the combinations of their secondary and perhaps tertiary skills.
Unfortunately, creating unique skillsets for every guild that currently share skillsets is far from simple. It's actually a massive undertaking by the limited number of admin who understand mechanics and PK enough to design and implement skillsets. Creating unique individual skills within shared skillsets, however, is a much smaller project that is within the scope of the envoys, and I encourage you to bring these ideas to your envoys so that they make come to fruition some day. Splitting up the fae, for example, is certainly viable through the envoy process on a case by case basis. The caveat being, of course, that it's subject to the workload of the current overhaul.
I would disagree and state that splitting off a small number of skills, rather than creating an entirely new skillset, is not enough to balance a class and make it successful. For example, barghest and redcap have both been envoyed with substantial buffs to cater to the Shadowdancer playstyle and to mesh well with their kill method. The Shadowdancers, as a result of this and some other envoy changes, are generally regarded as one of the more powerful PK guilds (even if they are, as Synkarin stated, a bit one dimensional). Consider past envoy successes when working on reports, as they can be an excellent guide to how things have been successfully achieved in the past.
I would warn against over simplifying and using hyperbole. Druids are not a "disaster," as far as I can tell. Their playstyles are dictated by their tertiary and secondary skills, rather than their primary, druidry. A Hartstone shaman with stag stomp has the option of playing very differently from a Blacktalon runist going for swoop. You are correct in that druidry, on its own, does not suceed in supporting both mana (swoop) and health (gore) kill methods. However, that is because it is not designed to, and these goals are accomplished through the above things I mentioned. I support and enjoy making each guild unique as possible, but it needs to be uniqueness with a purpose.
To reply to your objections. A shared skill with "guild-specific' abilities does not a balanced skill make. Yes any skill -can- have 1 or 2 guild specific skills but anyone can tell you that that is not enough to try and balance an entire class. We can even take your example of the Wiccan and Druidry skills and point out how even with the 'specific skills', they still have much to be desired. Additionally, extra guild skills in a skill does not deter from the fact that they share other skills as well, including terts. Unless the coding team was looking to place several specific abilities in each skill here and there to try and attempt some measure of balance, it'll just end up a big mess.
1) "1 or 2 guild specific skills" is downplaying it, wiccans each have 3 unique fae, and druids have a couple different meld effects (murder/squirrels for instance) plus darkseed/scarab abilities.
2) Every guild in the game shares tertiaries with someone. The most unique is probably warriors who share their terts with the wiccans/druids/guardians secondaries of their org, but they all share Tracking. Monks share Harmony/Stealth with another guild, hexes/healing/astrology/tarot is shared among guardians (tarot is among city bards) etc. Thus the argument that sharing terts is somehow makes sharing primary skills worse is incredibly poor logic at best and downright ignorance at worst. At least wiccans and druids get semi-separate secondary skills. Monks(acrobatics/psymet), Warriors(athletics), Bards(acrobatics), Mages(phantasms) all share their secondary skills in their entirety across all orgs, with only mages getting one unique guild skill in Phantasms.
Sharing skillsets isn't a unique problem to wiccans or druids, nor does your argument give any evidence to what these skillsets are 'lacking.' I already said they were boring, but boring doesn't mean weak. Heck, not too long ago @Caerlyr was saying that MD's were too easy and he wanted to reduce toading levels to 25% instead of 50%. I wouldn't agree with that, but some food for thought.
PS I respond to your posts because I disagree with them, and I stated my reasons why. If you take issue to people disagreeing with your statements and premises, then maybe you shouldn't post them. If you'll notice, I only address your points, not your person/character/whatever.
To reply to your objections. A shared skill with "guild-specific' abilities does not a balanced skill make. Yes any skill -can- have 1 or 2 guild specific skills but anyone can tell you that that is not enough to try and balance an entire class. We can even take your example of the Wiccan and Druidry skills and point out how even with the 'specific skills', they still have much to be desired. Additionally, extra guild skills in a skill does not deter from the fact that they share other skills as well, including terts. Unless the coding team was looking to place several specific abilities in each skill here and there to try and attempt some measure of balance, it'll just end up a big mess.
1) "1 or 2 guild specific skills" is downplaying it, wiccans each have 3 unique fae, and druids have a couple different meld effects (murder/squirrels for instance) plus darkseed/scarab abilities.
2) Every guild in the game shares tertiaries with someone. The most unique is probably warriors who share their terts with the wiccans/druids/guardians secondaries of their org, but they all share Tracking. Monks share Harmony/Stealth with another guild, hexes/healing/astrology/tarot is shared among guardians (tarot is among city bards) etc. Thus the argument that sharing terts is somehow makes sharing primary skills worse is incredibly poor logic at best and downright ignorance at worst. At least wiccans and druids get semi-separate secondary skills. Monks(acrobatics/psymet), Warriors(athletics), Bards(acrobatics), Mages(phantasms) all share their secondary skills in their entirety across all orgs, with only mages getting one unique guild skill in Phantasms.
Sharing skillsets isn't a unique problem to wiccans or druids, nor does your argument give any evidence to what these skillsets are 'lacking.' I already said they were boring, but boring doesn't mean weak. Heck, not too long ago @Caerlyr was saying that MD's were too easy and he wanted to reduce toading levels to 25% instead of 50%. I wouldn't agree with that, but some food for thought.
1) you stated 1 to 2 is downplaying it, and then stated a case of 3 is good? Additionally you bring up the concept of effects. A meld effect will generally add 1 extra affliction per every 10 seconds. I feel that 1 or 2 extra afflictions will not signify a suddenly dynamic and unique set between two classes sharing the same skill. It's like the wiccan players have been saying for some time. They find the wiccan skill not very diverse, even with the 3 unique fae, and would prefer it split to exemplify their Greater Spirit's teachings and way of life. Personally, I'd love to see Night wiccans taken into a more darker and enslaver theme, while moon gain more of a softer and caretaker feel.
2) I never said terts being shared makes the primary skill suddenly bad...where is this coming from? If that is how it sounded, then that is not at all what I meant. Sharing things like tertiaries, even secondaries, is not the issue here, it is the sharing of a PRIMARY skill, which is the basis of a class' combat and use, and then attempting to add complementary different skills with it to try and bring results of different strategies (health and mana kill methods for example).
Unfortunately, creating unique skillsets for every guild that currently share skillsets is far from simple. It's actually a massive undertaking by the limited number of admin who understand mechanics and PK enough to design and implement skillsets. Creating unique individual skills within shared skillsets, however, is a much smaller project that is within the scope of the envoys, and I encourage you to bring these ideas to your envoys so that they make come to fruition some day. Splitting up the fae, for example, is certainly viable through the envoy process on a case by case basis. The caveat being, of course, that it's subject to the workload of the current overhaul.
I would disagree and state that splitting off a small number of skills, rather than creating an entirely new skillset, is not enough to balance a class and make it successful. For example, barghest and redcap have both been envoyed with substantial buffs to cater to the Shadowdancer playstyle and to mesh well with their kill method. The Shadowdancers, as a result of this and some other envoy changes, are generally regarded as one of the more powerful PK guilds (even if they are, as Synkarin stated, a bit one dimensional). Consider past envoy successes when working on reports, as they can be an excellent guide to how things have been successfully achieved in the past.
I would warn against over simplifying and using hyperbole. Druids are not a "disaster," as far as I can tell. Their playstyles are dictated by their tertiary and secondary skills, rather than their primary, druidry. A Hartstone shaman with stag stomp has the option of playing very differently from a Blacktalon runist going for swoop. You are correct in that druidry, on its own, does not suceed in supporting both mana (swoop) and health (gore) kill methods. However, that is because it is not designed to, and these goals are accomplished through the above things I mentioned. I support and enjoy making each guild unique as possible, but it needs to be uniqueness with a purpose.
Before I reply, I'd like to try and disperse any confusion by defining how I view skills:
Ability: An ability that may be utilized for a deserved effect. Abilities are placed in skills Skill: A complete skill of a class, 1 of 3, that contains several abilities Skillset: A complete set of skills for each class, 3 skills (primary, secondary, tertiary) Kit: Referring to the entire selection a class has to pick for skills.
Now that that's over, back to my response
I dont want completely unique skills for each guild. I know how painful that would be and frankly I find sharing of some tertiaries and even secondaries to add a theme to those archetypes and orgs.
I simply request that, like their city counterparts of Mages and Guardians, that Druids and Wiccans are also given the priveledge of their own unique PRIMARY skill. It seems only fair and fitting that they are given the same amount of class designing given to the other archetypes, rather than communes simply be tossed the same skills to play with. Additionally, as some have said, Serenwilde and Glomdoring having the same primary skills downplays upon the theme these two orgs have against one another for their own version of nature.
While I can agree with you that adding one or two guild specific abilities can solve a few problems, it still doesnt fix the main issue. Let's take the example of Blacktalon runists you mentioned. Runists can build off of the double haegl technique to drop mana quickly in hopes for a Swoop, which is great for Blacktalon druids, but what about hartstone druids in this case? They have the same primary skill and several common totem abilities, but Runes is near useless for them. If hartstone had their own unique Primary druidry skill, then perhaps they could simply try to focus on a strategy embedded in that, rather than try to find a tert to compliment a Gore kill (which is already pretty difficult).
Rather than adding or changing 1 or 2 abilities in each Druidry and Totem skill, I'd make much more sense to build up each Druid class around their own kill scenarios. That way, rather than looking into each skill and the terts to try and find a way to make X from shared skill plus Y from shared skill with Z for unique guild skill work, we can simply look at X from unique skill and Z from guild skill to work, with Y as a possibility in the shared skills.
Well, not everything is about having solo-kill potential. Avurekhos has worked Dreamweaving into an almost permanent-blackout meld that would be useful for -any- class, not just himself. Blacktalon melds, along with certain Crow passives, increase bleeding on the target by quite a lot, draining mana, which is so integral to ALL of Glomdoring's kit.
I remember not too long ago Avurekhos killing Karlach in a duel in the Wyrdr Glade. Similarly, BT Vadi was easily in control in a meldfight in Acknor versus Munsia and her infamous geomeld. Druids are not worse off than mages for their similarity.
EDIT: Moreover, the similarity is probably on purpose. Wicca and Druidry aren't that strong on their own; it's the Spirits that grant you the strength and active input to really screw enemies over.
When I say skill, you mean ability, basically skill == ability
skillset is every skill/ability within a group
ie, the Crow skillset is every skill within Crow, eyepeck, belch, perch, swoop etc.
Pretty sure envoys and other players use the above terminology in general, for clarification
That said..
I agreed Wiccans were boring and one dimensional, which I feel is the same as saying they are not diverse.....
What I didn't agree to was that having shared skillsets means they can't be balanced.
It's pretty obvious that you don't really have a deep understanding of druid or wiccan mechanics, given your Runist druid example. BT runists aren't really going to swoopkill anyone without saplock and by the time you spend power hitting and maintaining saplock, swooping is useless as is thornlashing. Runes in groups however is amazing whether you're HS or BT. The same goes for Shamanism, dreamweaving and ecology. The only viable solo kill Runes opens up is death prophesy, which is more gimmicky than anything else, and achievable by both HS and BT.
I think RPly, the balance between Wiccans, Druids and Nature lend to the similarity in base skills with offshoots more in line with personal teachings. IE shared primary skillsets with unique guild abilities. That's not to say unique primary skillsets can't be the same, but it makes sense in it's current setup.
And yes, I think throwing out '1 of 2 unique' skills when a quick once over of the skillsets or just basic understanding of the guilds in general shows that statement to be patently false is you blatantly downplaying the unique skills within the skillset. If 3 isn't much better, why not use 3 instead of 1 or 2? Druids have 5-6 unique skills, but understating the facts to try and prove a point is disingenuous.
@Synkarin I completely agree that it's one-dimensional, and especially boring. That feeling of boredom is one of our greatest weaknesses, IMHO. I seriously cannot count how many people my guild has lost because "I want to actually try smashing things." I don't think "triplesleep until it works" is fun either for us, or for anyone facing us. Who really wants to face a sleeplock, or finds it fun hitting WAKE before you can counter?
But what I'm most curious about is if you really feel like the shared skills truly don't make it difficult to balance. We have three unique Fae, yes, and the effectiveness of those three fae isn't what I'm trying to talk about (though I kind of lol at them, sometimes, except crone, and even crone could be better). Our Totems spec is shared with Knights, who will need wildly different things from it than we do. Our Nature spec is shared with SDs (save for three Fae, yes). All our terts are shared with the other Guardian classes, who often don't need the same change we do.
How would you propose to balance such a class, when pretty much everything you touch will affect something else that doesn't need it?
Every Guardian has their own unique skill and flavor. Celestialism, Nihilism, Harmonics, Transmology. Druids even have -woods now, which is unique to them. Is that not way easier to balance their private skills than the ones we share?
So I am genuinely curious, how do you balance a class when it shares everything with others?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
2) Wiccans aren't really worse off than any other guild in Lusternia. People make a huge deal out of illuminati but at the end of the day, they're just as beatable as the rest and probably right on par with Nihilists/Researchers/Celestines, so it's not an issue of 'fancy newfangled classes.' Some classes are stronger against them and some classes are weaker. Yes, they are pretty 1-dimensional unless you get creative, but they are by no means weak. MD's are more so than SD's but that in itself is probably what turns people away. It's pretty boring just to spam the same triple sleep attack over and over until it works.
How would you propose to balance such a class, when pretty much everything you touch will affect something else that doesn't need it?
Every Guardian has their own unique skill and flavor. Celestialism, Nihilism, Harmonics, Transmology. Druids even have -woods now, which is unique to them. Is that not way easier to balance their private skills than the ones we share?
So I am genuinely curious, how do you balance a class when it shares everything with others?
As to Synkarin's statement, I have to agree with him about the Illuminati ordeal, as I usually hear the complaints myself about others difficulty with them. It's like I tell them on the same note, they can be killed, but the fact of the matter is, its just much much harder to do so dealing with all the entangling and immobility type hindrances to deal with. The approach is slower, and requires you to be highly be on the defensive more so than not. Also, personally in my experience of being an Illuminati, (again it is possible to kill them) your best bet of offensively coping with an Illuminati is pretty much another guardian or wiccan. I don't have an issue with fighting an Illuminati, and to clarify, that's one on one I'm referring to, group-wise its another story. (I'm still puzzled as to how I have killed Feyda without realizing I did.) Though anyway, certain classes have more of the advantage than others as well as being weaker against certain classes.
Now as to Riluna's question, I personally think Wiccans need a serious upgrade and separation In flavor of kill methods as yes, it is quite boring and almost the same tactics as each other, just the difference in their three faes that represent their Avatars, however, I believe the Shadowdancers offensively have a better chance of securing a kill moreso than a Moondancer would, as their skills are considerably more aggressive. (I think it goes to say your best defence is a good offense?) Perhaps the crone could use better offensive afflicts to dish out than what it currently does and pretty much the only fae to do something "decent" apart from the banshee and pixie. I would suggest probably the maiden be changed to strip defenses to the enemy rather than being another form of benediction, or maybe only strip quicksilver for the duration it is out before it disappears again. Though, others can probably brainstorm better ideas.
Deciding to teach Arcanis the ultimate lesson in manners, you point a finger imperiously at him and call the curse of the toad down upon his head. You watch in satisfaction as warts break out over his skin which then turns green and slimy. Finally, he shrinks and transforms into a large, ugly toad! With a telepathic sigh, a pooka tells you that he has lost control of Arcanis's actions.
In order to put the pathetic life of a warty toad out of its misery, you lift a foot and bring it down mightily on its bloated green body. A warty toad's back breaks under the weight of a heavy foot, its innards spilling out and leaving a messy stain on the ground. You have slain a warty toad. A warty toad wobbles about uncertainly and turns a pale shade of green before suddenly stretching and transforming into a demigod. Shaking his head, Arcanis stands before you where once there was a toad, looking slightly disoriented and perplexed with his tongue lolling out the side of his mouth. Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie. Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie. Arcanis drops the corpse of a pooka. Arcanis drops a stalk of faeleaf. Having been too much for the mortal threads of Arcanis, he screams in agony as flames engulf his body and burn it to a crisp. You tell Lord Fist Arcanis De'Unnero, Chosen of Wrath, "By the by, let that be a lesson in manners. I don't need friends to kill some of you one on one."
The same way Lusternia has been balancing shared skillsets forever. You either make changes affect guild only by adding guild specific skills, or you make changes with consideration of all the other classes that share that skillset.
Druids in general have the same kill strat with a few different skills to use (mostly crow/stag differences) and wiccans have the same end goal so it's not generally hard to consider how changes will affect involved parties. You run into it a bit more with Warriors in the mix, but that's not a big deal. Wiccans also have the warrior consideration, because that plays a bigger role than the common fae MD and SD share, but given that warrior killstrats are vastly different it's not hard to make changes more suited to wiccans or druids that don't really change warriors.
I just want to offer a little opinion on this topic. I don't think either of the wiccan guilds are suffering from lack of RP, as many people have also already mentioned - if anything, the fact that they share the exact same primary skillset is one of the more unique angles of RP in Lusternia. The only other archetype who does that would be the Knight guilds, and their primary is literally unrelated to their guild RP. Both the SDs and MDs benefit from the RP angle of being the same kind of fae-guardian/tender, it creates a sense of both kinship between the guilds across diametrically opposed orgs (partly why the old Forests vs Cities conflict was possible) and also a sense of contrast in the stark difference between the ideology of the two guilds (and by extension, the two forests).
If there is any reason to change wiccan mechanics, it would be to harken back to Celina's first post, which speaks of two major problems with wiccan mechanics:
1) Wiccan combat is outdated and plundered for other guilds across Lusternia's skill-scape. 2) Wiccan combat feels like a weaker version of Guardians.
Both those points appear on first sight to coincide with all the complaints about all the skills of wiccans being shared and usable by everyone else - afterall, saying that "there is no uniqueness to wiccan combat" means exactly that, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.
What Celina described, and what Riluna and Arcanis have been talking about (sharing skillsets with other archetypes as well as with the sister-wiccan guild) was a symptom, not the cause of the problem. The problem is 2) Wiccan combat feels like a weaker version of Guardians. The primary skillset being shared by MDs and SDs is not part of the problem. Note that just separating moondancers from shadowdancers can actually solve this problem... but only if both guilds are overhauled to move away from feeling like weaker versions of Guardians. Here's a more specific description of the problem that Celina highlighted:
- Wiccans have always had aeon as part of their main repertoire. Even shadowtwist depends on the aeon from the last twist to delay curing a little (even though it's the stun and damage that's the real killer). However, Guardians (and to a lesser extent, bards) have always had superior aeon with tarot. They can choose between enigma or fool to boost their aeon on top of all of their normal repertoire, and on the other hand, moon succumb is not compatible with aeon (though for a good reason) and choke, the aeon that is better than tarot aeon has gone the way of the dodo (again, for a good reason, of course). Wiccans simply cannot, however you look at it, put out better aeon than guardians, with the exception of the champion pets (passive aeon lol, and passive throatlock lol).
((Side note: Tarot is also a legacy skillset from the IRE core games that is just
all-around good as well, with its utility and lust. Totems is arguably
better... except that tarot users can get some of the most lucrative
totem utility if they have dingbats to shell out, but totem users (and
the rest of the game) can throw their wads of cash at the screen and
still only get "You have entered an invalid command." when typing FLING
WORLD AT GROUND. This point, however, is a digression from the above point, but it's part of what Celina wanted to highlight, I think.))
- Sleeplock is a stu- (cut off here because everyone knows what will be put under this paragra-)
- There is no third point.
Wiccan combat by itself is actually decently strong. Celina demonstrated that - her point is that it's not fun feeling like a gimped version of something else, and that is a valid concern. All of the wiccan secondary and tertiaries being shared by other archetypes in the game to some extent is a valid concern as well... but only insofar as a symptom of the archetype being weaker than what the guardians have access to. Afterall, as I mentioned above, the primary being shared by MD/SD is not part of the problem - and all other archetypes also DO share their secondaries and tertiaries with other guilds, though not neccesarily other archetypes.
There certainly is more than enough room in the wiccan skillset choices to add in a unique, wiccan-only secondary or tertiary, I feel (obviously, this new skillset would still be shared between the MDs and SDs, but that's what Celina really wanted: an archetype-unique skillset). This would be a far better way to invigorate the archetype than to just differentiate (and possibly lose a great RP avenue of) the primaries of the two guilds. The chance to create a totally different kill method for wiccans is definitely more than possible, wiccan ents are very very versatile at the strategies they can open up, and having access to both hexes and healing has always been one thing that made wiccans heads and shoulders ahead of the guardian classes in the versatility of their set up. A wiccan doesn't have to jump orgs to switch from fast affliction overloading to tanky, slippery, table-turning support.
I'd suggest that if you collect all of the different reasons you have all come up with as negatives for Wiccans (and druids) you would likely find answers for "Why no one plays" them.
It's not going to be one thing, some people will find it boring, some people will be really annoyed about sharing practically everything, some people will hate having anything to do with faethorn.
I don't think it's entirely correct to discount anyone's personal reasons for not playing the archetype in a discussion like this because it might not be your reason for not enjoying the archetype but it is theirs.
And perhaps with all of that you'll find intersections that work for people?
Like issues with kill methods and "boring" could be answered by tweaking the list of fae (if not completely but significantly) to include new fae unqiue to the guild, retain old fae that work with the set up, and exclude fae that wouldn't.
You could spice up combat, inject newness, push the specs apart, and keep some common fae.
I had more thoughts on the whole sharing specs thing but they can be a second post.
While the concept of sharing is interesting, it doesn't feel as interesting to me as fully exploring the various aspects of nature. I'd love to see Moon Wicca as kind of... the court of Mother Moon, exploring the aspects of nature loyal to her and her forest (perhaps she and River do not get along because Moon is constantly trying to influence the tides). I'm sure the Night court could be equally as interesting, and they'd likely be both subject to the Faethorn court.
The fae are currently all serving both the Moon and Night covens because of their Tah'vrai.
If the fae were unique you could delve into their connection to the guild, perhaps a certain type of fae serves Night because she encourages their cruelty, perhaps one serves Moon because they are the spirit of something that only occurs in Serenwilde, maybe a very clever Shadowdancer Queen tricked and tempted a group of fae into servitude.
Perhaps some (utility) fae could exist that the covens can attempt to sway to their sides because they are fickle and clever, able to easily escape from their bonds of loyalty. (For some reason weather or wind spirits came to mind)
The rp circumstances that I remember the "sharing" bringing up are primarily rooted around faethorn and well... that word is enough to make some people cry in a corner.
I'm also rather curious though about what @Synkarin said where you "make changes affect guild only by adding guild specific skills." Has this actually happened? The game is celebrating it's tenth anniversary and there have been complaints about the sharing for as long as I can remember but I can't remember a case where a guild unique ability has been added to the primaries.
They've had the bluebell and foxglove added as utilities, but every addition to druidry I can remember has been for both guilds. Any changes were just changes to their existing unique abilities. (oh and the extra damage ability... because everyone got one).
I guess I also feel that the decision for sharing doesn't make sense within the context of the other guilds, every bard guild, every monk guild, every guardian guild, and every mage guild have their own unique primary spec. When woods were introduced it wasn't a shared skill, it was unique, the powers they called on are that different that while they shared surface similarities they are, i would say, as different as Celestialism and Nihilism.
Warriors would be the exception to this rule, they have no unique primary but the benefit that they receive from this is the ability to switch around their primary to the weapon they like most. (less of a thing with classflexing I guess but still it's unique to the archetype).
Comments
Firstly, please everyone take into consideration that communes have for some time been asking for their skills to be brought in line to the "more shiny and awesome" introduced skills later in the game. Now that that is said, I'd like to point out some reasoning behind this stance.
Let us consider:
GUARDIAN VS WICCAN
Now both Guardians and Wiccans are considered the more 'spiritual focus' for cities and communes and their kits relate to this. Looking at Nihilists and Celestians, they both start out with their basic kits of Rituals and Cosmic, which shows a focus to their more 'mysterious elements of the universe'. Upon becoming masters in this, they are able to take up the skills of their Guardian duties, however, you'll find that though they are somewhat similar, they both go in quite the opposite direction. Where Celestians focus on healing and absolution, you find Nihilists focusing upon torment and corruption. Their kits are natural enemies to one another, but both are built around a different setup. For this reason, they each have -different- primary skills -and- secondary skills which allows them much more flexibility in combat, balance and flavor.
Now, taking Moondancers and Shadowdancers, they both take up Nature and Totems, and then both take up Wiccan and their totem aspect. Wiccan is the bread and butter of their combat combos and theme, yet they have a near identitcal kit other than 3 'unique' fae to summon. That aside, they both focus around the same kill concept: Drain Mana to Toad, yet they have differentiating secondary kits that should somehow both be effective for the same strategy? Is it truly surprising that one would seem superior or both not working out well in this context?
Shared skills always present this problem, as they require further balancing to try and make the kit usable by both factions, but will generally just birth a skillset that is very lacking.
Let's take another example:
DRUIDS VS MAGES
Mages and Druids have always been incorporated to function around their biggest mechanical theme: Making a meld.
A meld is a Mage's bread and butter and is where their true power lies. Yes they have telekinesis and telepathy, which i'll get to later, but melding is where a Mage's design focus was placed. Now all mages start the same with illusions and elementalism to eventually take phantasms and their elemental focus. Phantasms are generally used for secondary concepts to enhance on their Meld abilities and terts anyway. Each Mage gets their own personified Meld type that is associated strongly to the theme they represent and is able to be easily adjusted for balance reasons.
Taking a look at Druids, they receive the opposite in this case....but not for the better. Their primary skill, being their melds, is shared between the two factions, and their secondary skill which is suppose to be used to capitalize on their melds, has to somehow function well for both Druid types upon the same primary skill....That is just a recipe for disaster as is.
To emphasize on my point, let us look at Stag and Crow for Druid melds. One kit tries to focus on the idea of eventually having a Health-kill method, and the other tries to focus on the idea of a Mana-kill method, which are somehow suppose to capitalize upon the SAME and shared primary skill of Druidry....How in the world would one skill even have the means to drop one's health and mana both to suitable levels to begin with? It's just a mess.
To wrap things up: I strongly suggest a separation of the Wiccan and Druid factions and, like the cities, giving them each unique primary kits that they can use and capitalize correctly on with their theme imbued in it. When a class has a unique kit all to itself, it makes it -far- easier to balance around and produce good results without the fear of overpowering another class.
Note: I was pleased when the introduced of -WOOD specs brought to us a unique Wood skill for Serenwilde and Glomdoring. -THIS- is what I mean. By introducing Wyrdenwood and Wildewood, it made it much easier to balance in the future the kits of each, as they both have their own unique setups.
To reply to your objections. A shared skill with "guild-specific' abilities does not a balanced skill make. Yes any skill -can- have 1 or 2 guild specific skills but anyone can tell you that that is not enough to try and balance an entire class. We can even take your example of the Wiccan and Druidry skills and point out how even with the 'specific skills', they still have much to be desired. Additionally, extra guild skills in a skill does not deter from the fact that they share other skills as well, including terts. Unless the coding team was looking to place several specific abilities in each skill here and there to try and attempt some measure of balance, it'll just end up a big mess.
It's far easier to simply split off the primary skill and develop a skill unique to each that is built from the base-up around the combinations of their secondary and perhaps tertiary skills.
Unfortunately, creating unique skillsets for every guild that currently share skillsets is far from simple. It's actually a massive undertaking by the limited number of admin who understand mechanics and PK enough to design and implement skillsets. Creating unique individual skills within shared skillsets, however, is a much smaller project that is within the scope of the envoys, and I encourage you to bring these ideas to your envoys so that they make come to fruition some day. Splitting up the fae, for example, is certainly viable through the envoy process on a case by case basis. The caveat being, of course, that it's subject to the workload of the current overhaul.
I would disagree and state that splitting off a small number of skills, rather than creating an entirely new skillset, is not enough to balance a class and make it successful. For example, barghest and redcap have both been envoyed with substantial buffs to cater to the Shadowdancer playstyle and to mesh well with their kill method. The Shadowdancers, as a result of this and some other envoy changes, are generally regarded as one of the more powerful PK guilds (even if they are, as Synkarin stated, a bit one dimensional). Consider past envoy successes when working on reports, as they can be an excellent guide to how things have been successfully achieved in the past.
I would warn against over simplifying and using hyperbole. Druids are not a "disaster," as far as I can tell. Their playstyles are dictated by their tertiary and secondary skills, rather than their primary, druidry. A Hartstone shaman with stag stomp has the option of playing very differently from a Blacktalon runist going for swoop. You are correct in that druidry, on its own, does not suceed in supporting both mana (swoop) and health (gore) kill methods. However, that is because it is not designed to, and these goals are accomplished through the above things I mentioned. I support and enjoy making each guild unique as possible, but it needs to be uniqueness with a purpose.
1) you stated 1 to 2 is downplaying it, and then stated a case of 3 is good? Additionally you bring up the concept of effects. A meld effect will generally add 1 extra affliction per every 10 seconds. I feel that 1 or 2 extra afflictions will not signify a suddenly dynamic and unique set between two classes sharing the same skill. It's like the wiccan players have been saying for some time. They find the wiccan skill not very diverse, even with the 3 unique fae, and would prefer it split to exemplify their Greater Spirit's teachings and way of life. Personally, I'd love to see Night wiccans taken into a more darker and enslaver theme, while moon gain more of a softer and caretaker feel.
2) I never said terts being shared makes the primary skill suddenly bad...where is this coming from? If that is how it sounded, then that is not at all what I meant. Sharing things like tertiaries, even secondaries, is not the issue here, it is the sharing of a PRIMARY skill, which is the basis of a class' combat and use, and then attempting to add complementary different skills with it to try and bring results of different strategies (health and mana kill methods for example).
Ability: An ability that may be utilized for a deserved effect. Abilities are placed in skills
Skill: A complete skill of a class, 1 of 3, that contains several abilities
Skillset: A complete set of skills for each class, 3 skills (primary, secondary, tertiary)
Kit: Referring to the entire selection a class has to pick for skills.
Now that that's over, back to my response
I dont want completely unique skills for each guild. I know how painful that would be and frankly I find sharing of some tertiaries and even secondaries to add a theme to those archetypes and orgs.
I simply request that, like their city counterparts of Mages and Guardians, that Druids and Wiccans are also given the priveledge of their own unique PRIMARY skill. It seems only fair and fitting that they are given the same amount of class designing given to the other archetypes, rather than communes simply be tossed the same skills to play with. Additionally, as some have said, Serenwilde and Glomdoring having the same primary skills downplays upon the theme these two orgs have against one another for their own version of nature.
While I can agree with you that adding one or two guild specific abilities can solve a few problems, it still doesnt fix the main issue. Let's take the example of Blacktalon runists you mentioned. Runists can build off of the double haegl technique to drop mana quickly in hopes for a Swoop, which is great for Blacktalon druids, but what about hartstone druids in this case? They have the same primary skill and several common totem abilities, but Runes is near useless for them. If hartstone had their own unique Primary druidry skill, then perhaps they could simply try to focus on a strategy embedded in that, rather than try to find a tert to compliment a Gore kill (which is already pretty difficult).
Rather than adding or changing 1 or 2 abilities in each Druidry and Totem skill, I'd make much more sense to build up each Druid class around their own kill scenarios. That way, rather than looking into each skill and the terts to try and find a way to make X from shared skill plus Y from shared skill with Z for unique guild skill work, we can simply look at X from unique skill and Z from guild skill to work, with Y as a possibility in the shared skills.
I remember not too long ago Avurekhos killing Karlach in a duel in the Wyrdr Glade. Similarly, BT Vadi was easily in control in a meldfight in Acknor versus Munsia and her infamous geomeld. Druids are not worse off than mages for their similarity.
EDIT: Moreover, the similarity is probably on purpose. Wicca and Druidry aren't that strong on their own; it's the Spirits that grant you the strength and active input to really screw enemies over.
As to Synkarin's statement, I have to agree with him about the Illuminati ordeal, as I usually hear the complaints myself about others difficulty with them. It's like I tell them on the same note, they can be killed, but the fact of the matter is, its just much much harder to do so dealing with all the entangling and immobility type hindrances to deal with. The approach is slower, and requires you to be highly be on the defensive more so than not. Also, personally in my experience of being an Illuminati, (again it is possible to kill them) your best bet of offensively coping with an Illuminati is pretty much another guardian or wiccan. I don't have an issue with fighting an Illuminati, and to clarify, that's one on one I'm referring to, group-wise its another story. (I'm still puzzled as to how I have killed Feyda without realizing I did.) Though anyway, certain classes have more of the advantage than others as well as being weaker against certain classes.
Now as to Riluna's question, I personally think Wiccans need a serious upgrade and separation In flavor of kill methods as yes, it is quite boring and almost the same tactics as each other, just the difference in their three faes that represent their Avatars, however, I believe the Shadowdancers offensively have a better chance of securing a kill moreso than a Moondancer would, as their skills are considerably more aggressive. (I think it goes to say your best defence is a good offense?) Perhaps the crone could use better offensive afflicts to dish out than what it currently does and pretty much the only fae to do something "decent" apart from the banshee and pixie. I would suggest probably the maiden be changed to strip defenses to the enemy rather than being another form of benediction, or maybe only strip quicksilver for the duration it is out before it disappears again. Though, others can probably brainstorm better ideas.
call the curse of the toad down upon his head. You watch in satisfaction as warts break out over his
skin which then turns green and slimy. Finally, he shrinks and transforms into a large, ugly toad!
With a telepathic sigh, a pooka tells you that he has lost control of Arcanis's actions.
In order to put the pathetic life of a warty toad out of its misery, you lift a foot and bring it
down mightily on its bloated green body.
A warty toad's back breaks under the weight of a heavy foot, its innards spilling out and leaving a
messy stain on the ground.
You have slain a warty toad.
A warty toad wobbles about uncertainly and turns a pale shade of green before suddenly stretching
and transforming into a demigod. Shaking his head, Arcanis stands before you where once there was a
toad, looking slightly disoriented and perplexed with his tongue lolling out the side of his mouth.
Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie.
Arcanis drops the corpse of a pixie.
Arcanis drops the corpse of a pooka.
Arcanis drops a stalk of faeleaf.
Having been too much for the mortal threads of Arcanis, he screams in agony as flames engulf his
body and burn it to a crisp.
You tell Lord Fist Arcanis De'Unnero, Chosen of Wrath, "By the by, let that be a lesson in manners.
I don't need friends to kill some of you one on one."
If there is any reason to change wiccan mechanics, it would be to harken back to Celina's first post, which speaks of two major problems with wiccan mechanics:
1) Wiccan combat is outdated and plundered for other guilds across Lusternia's skill-scape.
2) Wiccan combat feels like a weaker version of Guardians.
Both those points appear on first sight to coincide with all the complaints about all the skills of wiccans being shared and usable by everyone else - afterall, saying that "there is no uniqueness to wiccan combat" means exactly that, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.
What Celina described, and what Riluna and Arcanis have been talking about (sharing skillsets with other archetypes as well as with the sister-wiccan guild) was a symptom, not the cause of the problem. The problem is 2) Wiccan combat feels like a weaker version of Guardians. The primary skillset being shared by MDs and SDs is not part of the problem. Note that just separating moondancers from shadowdancers can actually solve this problem... but only if both guilds are overhauled to move away from feeling like weaker versions of Guardians. Here's a more specific description of the problem that Celina highlighted:
- Wiccans have always had aeon as part of their main repertoire. Even shadowtwist depends on the aeon from the last twist to delay curing a little (even though it's the stun and damage that's the real killer). However, Guardians (and to a lesser extent, bards) have always had superior aeon with tarot. They can choose between enigma or fool to boost their aeon on top of all of their normal repertoire, and on the other hand, moon succumb is not compatible with aeon (though for a good reason) and choke, the aeon that is better than tarot aeon has gone the way of the dodo (again, for a good reason, of course). Wiccans simply cannot, however you look at it, put out better aeon than guardians, with the exception of the champion pets (passive aeon lol, and passive throatlock lol).
((Side note: Tarot is also a legacy skillset from the IRE core games that is just all-around good as well, with its utility and lust. Totems is arguably better... except that tarot users can get some of the most lucrative totem utility if they have dingbats to shell out, but totem users (and the rest of the game) can throw their wads of cash at the screen and still only get "You have entered an invalid command." when typing FLING WORLD AT GROUND. This point, however, is a digression from the above point, but it's part of what Celina wanted to highlight, I think.))
- Sleeplock is a stu- (cut off here because everyone knows what will be put under this paragra-)
- There is no third point.
Wiccan combat by itself is actually decently strong. Celina demonstrated that - her point is that it's not fun feeling like a gimped version of something else, and that is a valid concern. All of the wiccan secondary and tertiaries being shared by other archetypes in the game to some extent is a valid concern as well... but only insofar as a symptom of the archetype being weaker than what the guardians have access to. Afterall, as I mentioned above, the primary being shared by MD/SD is not part of the problem - and all other archetypes also DO share their secondaries and tertiaries with other guilds, though not neccesarily other archetypes.
There certainly is more than enough room in the wiccan skillset choices to add in a unique, wiccan-only secondary or tertiary, I feel (obviously, this new skillset would still be shared between the MDs and SDs, but that's what Celina really wanted: an archetype-unique skillset). This would be a far better way to invigorate the archetype than to just differentiate (and possibly lose a great RP avenue of) the primaries of the two guilds. The chance to create a totally different kill method for wiccans is definitely more than possible, wiccan ents are very very versatile at the strategies they can open up, and having access to both hexes and healing has always been one thing that made wiccans heads and shoulders ahead of the guardian classes in the versatility of their set up. A wiccan doesn't have to jump orgs to switch from fast affliction overloading to tanky, slippery, table-turning support.