Upcoming Celestine Rework

[Deleted User]

A number of reports in the past reporting cycle or two have been aimed at Celestialism/Sacraments in an attempt to bring new capabilities and or increase the strength of the Celestine Class. A number of these reports have been rejected due to Celetines being on the star map for a rework.

Below is the current plan for the Celestine Rework. It is important to highlight that this is currently only a plan, and everything listed on this page is subject to change.

* Absolve will be removed and Celestines will no longer focus on mana drains for their kills. The new route for a Celestine will be focused on Inquisition.

* A new affliction will be added called HolyFire. HolyFire will be a levelled affliction that functions similar to TimeWarp/TemporaryInsanity. Certain abilities will increase this affliction, and smoking steam will remove HolyFire levels. If a player has both Holyfire and TimeWarp, smoking steam will cure both at the same time. At this point in time, there is not going to be a passive effect from HolyFire, however it is a possibility that it will be added based on balance checks later in the project. If a passive effect is added, it will either be a small % ego drain based on the level of the affliction, or a small %ego healing malus.

* HolyFire is given to a player by marking them a Heretic. When Heretic/Infidel/Inquisition ends, all HolyFire will be removed.

* Heretic and Infidel timers will be extended to allow time to build HolyFire. Passively, Heretic and Infidel tics will apply a small amount of HolyFire. In addition to this, the power cost of the Inquisition chain will be lowered to 8 and the chain will no longer be tied to one specific Celestine/Paladin.

* Powersink is going to be moved to an Ego drain from a Mana drain.

* Inquisition will no longer strip defenses or cause a massive stun. The stun would be reduced to ~4 seconds. When Inquisition ends, the target will take % Current Ego Damage based on the level of their HolyFire. If their ego is less than 25% at the end of Inquisition, or they have maximum HolyFire, they will be slain.

The ratio of HolyFire to % Current Ego damage is below:
* 0 HolyFire: 10%
* 15-25 HolyFire: 25%
* 26-35 HolyFire: 40%
* 36-50 HolyFire: 55%
* 51-70 HolyFire: 70%
* 75 HolyFire: 100%

* A new skill will be added to replace Absolve. This will function similarly to DrawDown/NightKiss and grant the Celestine both the Halo and Wings defenses. This new ability will not replace the original skills, it will simply allow them to cast both simultaneously. It will also allow them to use the following new abilities:

* STARCALL RETRIBUTION - A 0p attack that will do fire/divinus damage and a small amount of HolyFire (less than 5 HolyFire).
* STARCALL HOLYSTRIKE - A 0p attack similar to STARCALL RETRIBUTION, styled to use a weapon and damage type based on which Supernal the Celestine has their deep pledge with (less than 5 HolyFire).
* STARCALL HOLYSTRIKE EMPOWERED - A 3p attack that would do increased HolyFire and apply 1-2 afflictions from the chosen Deep Pledge pool (less than 10 Holyfire).
* STARCALL CELESTIALRAY - A 6p attack that will apply a large amount of HolyFire, 1-2 afflictions from the chosen Deep Pledge pool, and one other random affliction based on the Deep Pledge Supernal.

The damage typing for HOLYSTRIKE would be:
* Methrenton - Fire
* Shakiniel - Cold
* Japhiel - Magical
* Raziela - Psychic
* Elohora - Electical

The afflictions for CELESTIALRAY would be:
* Methrenton - Physical Affliction (excluding mutilated limbs)
* Shakiniel - Internal Afflictions
* Japhiel - Mental Afflictions
* Raziela - Any random affliction^
* Elohora - Spiritual afflictions^
^ These would not afflict with class/timed afflictions such as GreyWhispers, BadLuck, TimeEchoes, Oracle, BendAura etc.

Other sources of HolyFire would be:
* Angel hits would deal a random small amount of HolyFire (1-4).
* Damage from Hallowed Ground would deal a random small amount of HolyFire (1-4).
* Paladins whose weapons are blessed with RighteousArms that attack a target afflicted with HolyFire will apply a small amount of HolyFire (1-4) or double that for two handed weapons.
* Symbols blessed with RighteousArms willl also add a small amount of HolyFire (1-4) with SYMBOL STRIKE.

It is possible that we will also look into changing some of the angel investable afflictions to line up with this. We are also looking at removing HolyLight as a resource, and in place of abilities requiring a HolyLight cost, it will either be power or there will be no cost (ability dependent).

As a summation, we are trying to create something new and fun to play, while also creating synergy with other classes in Celest. Once again, none of these numbers, abilities or changes are set in stone and are subject to change based on feedback.

Uzriel

Is powersink being changed from a mana drain to an ego drain going to also affect Nihilists who get powersink as part of their Luciphage pact? Nihilists still rely on mana for wrack and an ego drain would be meaningless to them.

Sulwh

I am concerned about two points:

1. The shift to an ego-based instakill/a mechanic that does ego damage. Aquachems drain ego exceedingly well, and already synergize very well with dreamweaving and EternalSleep. Having a mechanic that does % based ego damage on a set timer will allow EternalSleep to be much deadlier.
2. The shift away from the chain tied down to a specific Celestine/Paladin. The current dichotomy can be seen in Timewarp vs TempInsanity. People can be popped instantly with Timewarp, but having Illuminate tied behind Truename means that there is counterplay (by keeping the Truenamer hindered for example), and also means that there is at least a single balance needed (for the truename) before the Illuminate can go off.
   

Afrit

I like the proposal overall. I'd just been mentioning to a friend that I felt like Celestine was outdated/kind of out of place in Celest's overall kill strategy, and lo and behold here comes this post, haha.

I think a lot of this rework will depend on the values you assign to HolyFire and the % ego drain. Like Sulwh mentioned, Aquachems are deceptively adept at draining ego by themselves. We don't want to veer into overkill territory.

Re: all the HolyFire generators, will they only proc if the target at least has Heretic/Infidel on them? That's kind of what the wording is implying to me.

I would say that Illuminate should be brought up to speed with Timequake and the potential Celestine insta rather than trying to bring the Celestine insta down. I was planning next report cycle to ask the admin to either remove Truename or make it a triviality to achieve so that Illuminate achieves the same amount of accessibility as Timequake, but that remains to be seen if it'll be accepted or not.

The most immediate concern to me is that Celestine combatants might feel pigeonholed into an Elohora deep pledge for the spiritual aff synergy with HolyFire. Assigning too much priority to a deep pledge mechanically might put a sour taste in roleplayers' mouths, because the deep pledge is such an important part of Celestialism and character development (imo).

Afrit

Re: the ego and holyfire values, the good news is that testing on the test server will work out the numbers, just like the Researcher rework needed time to tune the timewarp values of each skill. But since the underlying idea is sound, it won't be a real obstacle.

Re: Inquisition, will the Sacraments user be at will to pop it at any time they like (provided they have enough power), or will there be the current vulnerability periods, or what's going on with that? You might have all the HolyFire you want to nuke the enemy's ego at a certain time, but if you're not able to Inquisition when you like then they might just get away or cure it off.

Admittedly, that's not much different than what Inquisition is now. However, since we're banking more on Inquisition due to the loss of Absolve, it may behoove you to make Inquisition more reliable? I'm not sure.

Selia

One very small thing that's always been on my wishlist for the Guardian guilds (well, Nihilists/Celestines) was that each symbol would have a unique SYMBOL STRIKE message, for no other reason than flavor. It's kind of...merely adjacent to this but I feel like if ever there was a chance of such, now would be the time.

I mentioned it on the Discord and was recommended to do so here instead, so here it is. Heck, I'd even consider helping to write the messages myself if this was something y'all producers were interested in.

Brawrur

Woof.

Absolve will be removed and Celestines will no longer focus on mana drains for their kills. The new route for a Celestine will be focused on Inquisition.

More ego focus for Celest, okay.

HolyFire will be a levelled affliction that functions similar to TimeWarp/TemporaryInsanity.
Wouldn't it be better to model this off of how deathmarks function?

If a passive effect is added, it will either be a small % ego drain based on the level of the affliction, or a small %ego healing malus.
See point about deathmarks, also, would have to be minimally effective to be remotely balanced. Also, more ego focus. Joy.

Heretic and Infidel timers will be extended to allow time to build HolyFire. Passively, Heretic and Infidel tics will apply a small amount of HolyFire. In addition to this, the power cost of the Inquisition chain will be lowered to 8 and the chain will no longer be tied to one specific Celestine/Paladin.
Skill ceiling reduced, skill floor raised massively. Lower power, more effect, less effort. Okay.

Inquisition will no longer strip defenses or cause a massive stun. The stun would be reduced to ~4 seconds. When Inquisition ends, the target will take % Current Ego Damage based on the level of their HolyFire. If their ego is less than 25% at the end of Inquisition, or they have maximum HolyFire, they will be slain.
Wait, so does the chain go like this? 

Set up room, apply inquisition, stonks stack holyfire, hit 51/70 because it will be built to do that much in a cycle, if not more... It ends, stuns for 4 seconds letting you pop off another ability or for everyone to target them, AND THEN it deals massive ego damage and a kill?

It just seems... Overloaded? It's like you've taken the best parts of Night, Moon, Paradigmatics, Aeonics Celestialism, DRAMATURGY* and Nihilism and then sort of just made it into a kill path. 

It has the night/moon benefits in that it works on a pool that anyone can target and contribute to easily, like Celestialism already had. It has the researcher benefits in that it's a stacking affliction with a kill added on. It has the institute effect on a failed instakill. It synergises really well with other classes, which is just really a fact of guardians but they haven't lost that, which I feel they should if this is how they're going.


Removing HolyLight as a resource, and in place of abilities requiring a HolyLight cost, it will either be power or there will be no cost (ability dependent).

A number of abilities would just have to be removed or battered into the ground without the HolyLight limiter, even though it's quite bad now in the current state. Holylight being such a strict restraining presence is probably the only reason some abilities exist in the form they currently do.



I like that you're doing something. But...

This change needs to come with extreme moderation or with updates to other guardians who are feeling quite maligned.

also hi everyone.

*Forgot Dramaturgy. 

Chogan

It seems a little early to be beating the drum for a nerf before we even see what sort of numbers the Celestines can produce with regards to ego drain and holyfire building.

I do like the idea of holyfire working more similarly to deathmarks than timewarp/tempins but don't really understand deathmark well enough to grokk what it would imply to the skillset's structure. It just seems like good design to have some degree of symmetry across diametrically opposing organizations.

Uzriel

Deathmarks is actually something that I've been considering envoy reports for next cycle. Though I don't really want to take away from the Celestine overhaul discussion.

As it stands though, its one of the only mechanics with diminishing returns. The diminishing returns can even proc 1v1. Deathmarks are in a good place for Ur'guard but also not really viable for Nihilists solo, leaving warriors as the far superior necromancers which seems off.

Brawrur

Chogan said:

It seems a little early to be beating the drum for a nerf before we even see what sort of numbers the Celestines can produce with regards to ego drain and holyfire building.

I do like the idea of holyfire working more similarly to deathmarks than timewarp/tempins but don't really understand deathmark well enough to grokk what it would imply to the skillset's structure. It just seems like good design to have some degree of symmetry across diametrically opposing organizations.

I've really stopped taking this whole pvp thing seriously after discussions regarding timequake, creeping, succumb's wack ass nerf and climax. Combat balance is the longest running in-joke Lusternia has.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what is said, but it's good to get a word in first and in writing before the issue comes up, if nothing else, just so we can point after and say "We told you so, months ago, repeatedly." 


But no, now is the perfect time to start banging drums, before anyone gets too invested in their win button. Which is what this will be. And it'll be another unique win button for SL.

Just make them a clone of how Nihilism functions and call that a day. Maybe change a few fluffy things, but god. Not this.

I get that Nihilists aren't yelping at the minute but it feels kind of weird to just jam in a janky Celestine update if you're not going to touch Nihilism too.

Aeldra

I'll simply say thank you for looking into Celestine and moving it from the awkward spot it is right now . I do not feel the wish to engage in conversation in regards to validity though, so this will be my only comment.

edit: cleaned it up to sound less mean, Aeldra, get more caffeine.

Brawrur

[Edited for forum rule violations.]

The awkward spot Celestines are in is highly exaggerated. They have tools to get kills, support allies highly effectively and have already been remarked as having slipped by a number of things they shouldn't have.

The ego focus is a step too far and matches them with already strong synergies in their organisation, while making them unique amongst guardians. There are far more worthy organisations who would be well suited to an ego focus.

[...]

And I'm not against an update to Celestines but like, do it in a sensible way that makes sense? Not this way.

Maylea

As a reminder, please do not resort to personal attacks in your posts. This is against forum rules. This thread is for feedback for the Furies. Please direct your thoughts and comments in a useful manner in that direction, and not towards one another!

Talkan

This change would cause Celestines to have one and only reliable method to kill someone: using the Inquisition ego drain/instakill.

In days of yore, before things went insane in combat balance, Celestines relied on Inquisition to stun the target for long enough to start the instakill process (usually Soulless, but I had good results with Meteor as well for the same reasons). Additionally, Celestines relied on afflictions to keep the target from moving after the stun was over. Both stun + afflictions were required to keep a target still to pull the instakill off. Without one or the other, it was pretty much impossible to kill a target. I have experienced that first hand in the last year. With automated curing (a good thing) plus seemingly a bazillion artifacts that reduce the effect of practically every affliction in the game ( a bad thing), it was nearly impossible to keep someone in a room long enough to kill them. Using every ability I had to keep someone from leaving the room was instantly negated by a...pogo stick. And that's assuming they even wanted to stay in the room long enough to finish Inquisition to begin with. Carcer, fall, web, and shield stuns are more or less negligible in keeping a target still without them choosing to not leave. Now, let me punctuate that by saying it shouldn't be possible to keep someone in the room against their will without fail. I'm only saying that it's practically impossible to keep them in a room at all. Which is why Inquisition's stun timer is so critical to achieving any sort of Celestine instakill.

With the proposed change, it doesn't appear Celestines will be any better at adding afflictions (a six power attack does 1-2 afflictions?? They'll be cured before you regain balance, much less regain your power), and Inquisition's stun time is being cut in half - the target will come out of stun at the same time your regain balance. So with no additional affliction production and reduced stun time, any attempt at Soulless or Meteor will automatically result in failure.

I can't begin to guess at how effective the Inquisition instakill will be, but with a requirement of 25% ego, I imagine it won't be very effective at all.

Celestine's definitely need a change, but this doesn't seem to achieve the goal of what the class is supposed to be or make them fun to play. You may as well remove the other instakills from Celestine tertiaries and replace them with something that only supports Inquisition instakills, because they won't be viable afterwards. It seems quite a few people have talked about the group cohesion these changes have, and I won't touch on those because I don't feel like I have an up-to-date knowledgebase. But this certainly does not entice me to play Talkan as a Celestine.

Brawrur

Talkan said:

This change would cause Celestines to have one and only reliable method to kill someone: using the Inquisition ego drain/instakill.

In days of yore, before things went insane in combat balance, Celestines relied on Inquisition to stun the target for long enough to start the instakill process (usually Soulless, but I had good results with Meteor as well for the same reasons). Additionally, Celestines relied on afflictions to keep the target from moving after the stun was over. Both stun + afflictions were required to keep a target still to pull the instakill off. Without one or the other, it was pretty much impossible to kill a target. I have experienced that first hand in the last year. With automated curing (a good thing) plus seemingly a bazillion artifacts that reduce the effect of practically every affliction in the game ( a bad thing), it was nearly impossible to keep someone in a room long enough to kill them. Using every ability I had to keep someone from leaving the room was instantly negated by a...pogo stick. And that's assuming they even wanted to stay in the room long enough to finish Inquisition to begin with. Carcer, fall, web, and shield stuns are more or less negligible in keeping a target still without them choosing to not leave. Now, let me punctuate that by saying it shouldn't be possible to keep someone in the room against their will without fail. I'm only saying that it's practically impossible to keep them in a room at all. Which is why Inquisition's stun timer is so critical to achieving any sort of Celestine instakill.

With the proposed change, it doesn't appear Celestines will be any better at adding afflictions (a six power attack does 1-2 afflictions?? They'll be cured before you regain balance, much less regain your power), and Inquisition's stun time is being cut in half - the target will come out of stun at the same time your regain balance. So with no additional affliction production and reduced stun time, any attempt at Soulless or Meteor will automatically result in failure.

I can't begin to guess at how effective the Inquisition instakill will be, but with a requirement of 25% ego, I imagine it won't be very effective at all.

Celestine's definitely need a change, but this doesn't seem to achieve the goal of what the class is supposed to be or make them fun to play. You may as well remove the other instakills from Celestine tertiaries and replace them with something that only supports Inquisition instakills, because they won't be viable afterwards. It seems quite a few people have talked about the group cohesion these changes have, and I won't touch on those because I don't feel like I have an up-to-date knowledgebase. But this certainly does not entice me to play Talkan as a Celestine.

lol.

Oh no, only one instakill method. That's so unusual for a guardian class.

Are you asking for the stun instakill to be increased here?

People escaping the room? Oh no, welcome to every class in the game.

Oh no, afflictions are hard to stack. ...

The six power attack does... 2-3 afflictions and a *large* amount of holyfire. Which could be fatal, honestly no idea, but at six power it's probably a fair bit.

Wild.

Daemel

Brawrur said:

Talkan said:

This change would cause Celestines to have one and only reliable method to kill someone: using the Inquisition ego drain/instakill.

In days of yore, before things went insane in combat balance, Celestines relied on Inquisition to stun the target for long enough to start the instakill process (usually Soulless, but I had good results with Meteor as well for the same reasons). Additionally, Celestines relied on afflictions to keep the target from moving after the stun was over. Both stun + afflictions were required to keep a target still to pull the instakill off. Without one or the other, it was pretty much impossible to kill a target. I have experienced that first hand in the last year. With automated curing (a good thing) plus seemingly a bazillion artifacts that reduce the effect of practically every affliction in the game ( a bad thing), it was nearly impossible to keep someone in a room long enough to kill them. Using every ability I had to keep someone from leaving the room was instantly negated by a...pogo stick. And that's assuming they even wanted to stay in the room long enough to finish Inquisition to begin with. Carcer, fall, web, and shield stuns are more or less negligible in keeping a target still without them choosing to not leave. Now, let me punctuate that by saying it shouldn't be possible to keep someone in the room against their will without fail. I'm only saying that it's practically impossible to keep them in a room at all. Which is why Inquisition's stun timer is so critical to achieving any sort of Celestine instakill.

With the proposed change, it doesn't appear Celestines will be any better at adding afflictions (a six power attack does 1-2 afflictions?? They'll be cured before you regain balance, much less regain your power), and Inquisition's stun time is being cut in half - the target will come out of stun at the same time your regain balance. So with no additional affliction production and reduced stun time, any attempt at Soulless or Meteor will automatically result in failure.

I can't begin to guess at how effective the Inquisition instakill will be, but with a requirement of 25% ego, I imagine it won't be very effective at all.

Celestine's definitely need a change, but this doesn't seem to achieve the goal of what the class is supposed to be or make them fun to play. You may as well remove the other instakills from Celestine tertiaries and replace them with something that only supports Inquisition instakills, because they won't be viable afterwards. It seems quite a few people have talked about the group cohesion these changes have, and I won't touch on those because I don't feel like I have an up-to-date knowledgebase. But this certainly does not entice me to play Talkan as a Celestine.

lol.

Oh no, only one instakill method. That's so unusual for a guardian class.

Are you asking for the stun instakill to be increased here?

People escaping the room? Oh no, welcome to every class in the game.

Oh no, afflictions are hard to stack. ...

The six power attack does... 2-3 afflictions and a *large* amount of holyfire. Which could be fatal, honestly no idea, but at six power it's probably a fair bit.

Wild.

Can you....... seriously stop being toxic and a negative nancy? People are addressing real concerns and they have a much stronger knowledge of how the class is -suppose- to work than you do. Offer suggestions-positive ones or just keep it to yourself.

[Deleted User]

Thank you all for the feedback so far.

@Uzriel

Is powersink being changed from a mana drain to an ego drain going to also affect Nihilists who get powersink as part of their Luciphage pact? Nihilists still rely on mana for wrack and an ego drain would be meaningless to them.

The intention here is that powersink will either be a mana drain or an ego drain for Nihilists and Celestines respectively.

@Sulwh

1. The shift to an ego-based instakill/a mechanic that does ego damage. Aquachems drain ego exceedingly well, and already synergize very well with dreamweaving and EternalSleep. Having a mechanic that does % based ego damage on a set timer will allow EternalSleep to be much deadlier.

2. The shift away from the chain tied down to a specific Celestine/Paladin. The current dichotomy can be seen in Timewarp vs TempInsanity. People can be popped instantly with Timewarp, but having Illuminate tied behind Truename means that there is counterplay (by keeping the Truenamer hindered for example), and also means that there is at least a single balance needed (for the truename) before the Illuminate can go off.

1. We do not think this this is going to be a balance concern at this time. The aim here is to create more synergy with the classes of Celest, and a byproduct of good synergy is faster kill methods.. We will, however, keep this in mind moving forward. If it does become a balance concern during the testing phase, we will discuss and attempt to implement something that will mitigate the stacking of EternalSleep and Inquisition.

2. In total, a minimum of 3 balances will be required to pull off this kill method. Being able to afflict HolyFire is gated behind casting Heretic, which is already burning power. There is also little benefit to burning through all the stages of Inquisition quickly. We do not believe this will become a balance concern. We will, however, keep an open mind while we progress with the development of the rework.

@Afrit

1. Re: all the HolyFire generators, will they only proc if the target at least has Heretic/Infidel on them? That's kind of what the wording is implying to me.

2. The most immediate concern to me is that Celestine combatants might feel pigeonholed into an Elohora deep pledge for the spiritual aff synergy with HolyFire. Assigning too much priority to a deep pledge mechanically might put a sour taste in roleplayers' mouths, because the deep pledge is such an important part of Celestialism and character development (imo).

3. Re: Inquisition, will the Sacraments user be at will to pop it at any time they like (provided they have enough power), or will there be the current vulnerability periods, or what's going on with that?

1. That is correct. The intention here is to gate HolyFire behind having either Infidel or Heretic.

2. The intention here is not to attempt to push players towards making one pledge seem better than others, and thus altering potential roleplay. This was part of the decision behind making CELESTIALRAY only do one affliction based off their Deep Pledge, as it only gives a marginal advantage.

3. We are intending to remove the windows from Heretic and Infidel allowing some amount of flexibility for the Celestine to pick and choose their timings for Inquisition.

@Selia

One very small thing that's always been on my wishlist for the Guardian guilds (well, Nihilists/Celestines) was that each symbol would have a unique SYMBOL STRIKE message, for no other reason than flavor. It's kind of...merely adjacent to this but I feel like if ever there was a chance of such, now would be the time.

We are intending to change a few of the existing lines around with this rework, so we are definitely able to look at changing the Symbol Strike lines as well.

@Brawrur

The purpose of this forums post is for us to get an idea of what players think of the proposed rework. As mentioned a number of times, nothing here is set in stone and is subject to change at a moments notice, or through further testing. While the point of mirroring another class is typically something that happens, what we are trying to do here is create something new that we can potentially use as a basis moving forward for other guardians. As Celestines specifically were already on the starmap for a complete rework, this is exactly what has happened. We would like to ask that in future, if you have complaints about the proposed rework and would like to raise them, that you could potentially consider providing some useful suggestions on changes to make outside of just replicating another classes abilities, and refrain from drawing your own conclusions without all the information required to do such.

@Talkan

What we are trying to do here is shift the focus for the Celestine kill route back to Celestialism and away from tertiary abilities, as these should be the primary kill methods for the class. The idea behind the 6p for CELESTIALRAY isn't to stack afflictions, it's to assist in the generation of HolyFire. The concept is that there is just enough time between Inquisition starting and finishing to use CELESTIALRAY as a means to secure more HolyFire and execute the kill condition.

Talkan

Furies said:

Thank you all for the feedback so far.

@Talkan

What we are trying to do here is shift the focus for the Celestine kill route back to Celestialism and away from tertiary abilities, as these should be the primary kill methods for the class. The idea behind the 6p for CELESTIALRAY isn't to stack afflictions, it's to assist in the generation of HolyFire. The concept is that there is just enough time between Inquisition starting and finishing to use CELESTIALRAY as a means to secure more HolyFire and execute the kill condition.

I guess I'm confused about why moving kill routes away from tertiaries is a net positive for the class. Meteor and Soulless are really fun kill routes to achieve. Moving the class away from those doesn't seem like it's inherently better.

Fillirriqili

Talkan said:

Furies said:

Thank you all for the feedback so far.

@Talkan

What we are trying to do here is shift the focus for the Celestine kill route back to Celestialism and away from tertiary abilities, as these should be the primary kill methods for the class. The idea behind the 6p for CELESTIALRAY isn't to stack afflictions, it's to assist in the generation of HolyFire. The concept is that there is just enough time between Inquisition starting and finishing to use CELESTIALRAY as a means to secure more HolyFire and execute the kill condition.

I guess I'm confused about why moving kill routes away from tertiaries is a net positive for the class. Meteor and Soulless are really fun kill routes to achieve. Moving the class away from those doesn't seem like it's inherently better.

The only Celestines I've seen in recent months on Shadowlight have complained about how terrible Absolve is, so I feel like a viable instakill in the guild primary to work towards sounds like a great idea. (Or is it usually in the secondary? Institute gets it in Aeonics but I guess that's kind of their main stick.) Likewise, even in groups (admittedly we might not be the best coordinated at times) I know that I see people living through inquisition stun and running after coming out the other end so I would venture that a kill condition stuck onto the end would be preferable than just a stun/def strip. Certainly, going by deathsights Meteor (super popular all round) and Soulless (less popular? I think I've seen it once) have been done more outside of inquisition than because of it. In my opinion the fact that Meteor and Soulless being the fun kill routes that stand out in your memory is a sign of the lack of flourish in Celestineism itself. Come back and throw space rocks at people with @Azula and friends in the meantime, it still works - and rocks! 

Brawrur

Personally, I feel like the focus being placed on a class that has 4+ viable killpaths is kind of wonky when there are classes in this game that don't have a single one. Really raises a question around why certain classes are being focused for improvements, especially classes that have received unprecedented levels of charity in the past. 

On that note though, Soulless hasn't been used by anyone for a while. It's just because Tarot is outdated and needs a rework. (Hey, maybe focus on that instead and do something for ALL guardians?)

Inquisition has been buffed recently as a stop-gap measure. Will these buffs be reverted when the shift to Holyfire happens, or are they just going to be kept with no further remark on that?

Will Judge be removed to bring Celestines in line with other guardians? How about filling that space with Celestialray?

What changes to other classes are you planning to make to cater to this synergy which haven't been mentioned in the above post? Would you accept reports that for example, allowed bards, mages and monks to inflict holyfire in the future?

Why is inquisition not locked to one person like other guardian abilities like this are?

Could we get a bit more detail on how Holylight is going to be changed BEFORE that happens rather after as we stand shocked in the aftermath? Also angel investables, my only thought is that you're going to buff Spiritual pressure.

You don't want to mimic other skills, okay, but... Why is this all looking so unique and individual? Are we throwing class mirrors out of the window in the future and opening other classes up to being much more different to their counterparts? Is this a new design philosophy we can expect to see across the game?

What other classes/archetypes are on the starmap? 

Thanks!

Orael

This is a volunteer coding project that has been taken on by a volunteer, it isn't something that I'm committing myself to do. When it comes to volunteers doing volunteer projects, we want them to work on something they are genuinely interested in doing so it's more likely it gets completed. Celestines have been on the starmap at this point for a few years and this was a project this volunteer was interested in undertaking so we gave it a greenlight. This is a project that we are aiming for them to complete before taking on bigger projects. Maybe those larger projects will involve more things you want to see done, but we need to take the first step and the first step is allowing them to complete this project first. I've signed off on the proposal because I think it accomplishes some of the goals we want to see for Celestines (and Celest) such as more synergy between classes to bring them up to par with synergy seen in other orgs. 

I understand that you, Brawrur, don't feel this is the best use of resources, but continuing to harp on it is neither constructive or useful. If you want to be constructive, please do so, but leave out the extraneous commentary that does not really relate to this project. 

Any further posts that are not directly related to feedback on the proposal here will be deleted because it's simply a waste of our time at this point. You've said your piece, what you want is not in the cards at this time, it's time to move on.

Sulwh

Celestines already have multiple viable killpaths: Judgment, Absolve, Inquisition (it is an instakill in the same sense that toad curse is one - the person that is being inquisitioned should die unless mistakes happen or they are rescued), Meteor (especially with the new wondercenser), Cauterise, and Soulless (but let's be real, why would you ever use it when Judgment is Soulless but a thousand times better?). They have tools to hamper someone and keep them in the room for meteor: carcer, shieldstun, web. If the meteor is timed well and you are able to drop the meteor immediately before the opponent uses balance/equilibrium, then shieldstun/web has a great chance of lasting until the meteor falls.

Absolve is already an amazing pressuring tool even though it is not viable for solo kills (there are other killpaths for solo: judgment and meteor). If there is a Celestine in a group, then you have to watch your mana usage for clotting. The Nihilism equivalent, Wrack, at least requires the target to be bound or paralyzed. Absolve only requires 50% mana.

I think it is neat that class reworks are being done, but I do not understand the rationale in removing 2 conditional viable group instakills and replacing it with, on paper, an extremely strong killpath.

Chogan

Sulwh said:

Celestines already have multiple viable killpaths: Judgment, Absolve, Inquisition (it is an instakill in the same sense that toad curse is one - the person that is being inquisitioned should die unless mistakes happen or they are rescued), Meteor (especially with the new wondercenser), Cauterise, and Soulless (but let's be real, why would you ever use it when Judgment is Soulless but a thousand times better?). They have tools to hamper someone and keep them in the room for meteor: carcer, shieldstun, web. If the meteor is timed well and you are able to drop the meteor immediately before the opponent uses balance/equilibrium, then shieldstun/web has a great chance of lasting until the meteor falls.

Absolve is already an amazing pressuring tool even though it is not viable for solo kills (there are other killpaths for solo: judgment and meteor). If there is a Celestine in a group, then you have to watch your mana usage for clotting. The Nihilism equivalent, Wrack, at least requires the target to be bound or paralyzed. Absolve only requires 50% mana.

I think it is neat that class reworks are being done, but I do not understand the rationale in removing 2 conditional viable group instakills and replacing it with, on paper, an extremely strong killpath.

If you would care to outline how any of the mentioned kill paths (aside from meteor, which is actually viable but is indoors gated) are supposed to actually be pulled off?

Perhaps a teachable moment for you, soulless is extremely necessary for Celestines to kill because you can't judge under inquisition because you're inherently too low on power. However the rubbing process and prepping inquisition is extremely slow and not difficult to avoid if you know glow timings.

Is there any guardian worse at draining mana than Celestines? I don't think there is... Absolve is just a killsteal tool at this point and rarely preferable to straight damage-kills in groups.

I'd like to honestly hear if you have realistic ideas for how Celestines are currently *viable* much less *strong*. I'm open to ideas, but please, don't just hand-wave. Be detailed and honest about the viability of the strategies.

Steingrim

@Orael How many absolved have happened say since the beginning of the year? I believe you keep numbers like that and do those numbers include arena events?

Daemel

Sulwh said:

Celestines already have multiple viable killpaths: Judgment, Absolve, Inquisition (it is an instakill in the same sense that toad curse is one - the person that is being inquisitioned should die unless mistakes happen or they are rescued), Meteor (especially with the new wondercenser), Cauterise, and Soulless (but let's be real, why would you ever use it when Judgment is Soulless but a thousand times better?). They have tools to hamper someone and keep them in the room for meteor: carcer, shieldstun, web. If the meteor is timed well and you are able to drop the meteor immediately before the opponent uses balance/equilibrium, then shieldstun/web has a great chance of lasting until the meteor falls.

Absolve is already an amazing pressuring tool even though it is not viable for solo kills (there are other killpaths for solo: judgment and meteor). If there is a Celestine in a group, then you have to watch your mana usage for clotting. The Nihilism equivalent, Wrack, at least requires the target to be bound or paralyzed. Absolve only requires 50% mana.

I think it is neat that class reworks are being done, but I do not understand the rationale in removing 2 conditional viable group instakills and replacing it with, on paper, an extremely strong killpath.

1. The thing about Absolve is that while yes, it is a killsteal move-it is only that. A Celestine can't reliably pull it off without a Tk mage/Nekotai and wiccans to a lesser degree meaning that they having to reach outside their org to achieve the method as Celest typically don't have TK mages. They are predominantly dreamweavers or runists to a lesser degree. Also, Wrack is nowhere -near- as equivalent as absolve. Wrack may have an extra requirement, but it can be pulled off without help because of the way Nihilists are set up greatly for success even with the recent upgrade they received in the last two or three years. You can't amissio/powersink your way to absolve with afflictions that cure at the speed of light that is given actively ~4s or passively at ~8s with the angel. So the removal of absolve makes sense to me here.

2. Tools to hamper like carcer/web/shieldstun/tower(fall) card are negligble because of some artifacts make those tools lolzy irrelevant. Understandably they're not meant to be 100% inescapable which is correct, but they can also use a much-needed upgrade in proc rates in blocking escape to allow them more use for necessity.

3. My concern is the reduction in stun duration because for balance reasons, the new mech -has- to take into account of Soulless and Meteor kills. I get the impression that this new suite of affs MIGHT be good for cauterize, but I don't know. However, I think the stun needs to be at least 6 or 7s which is still a reduction from what it is now, but it should be baby steps in duration reduction to see how viable it is to pull off those two. It is already bad that you can't do anything while Soulless is being channeled, but also within that time and stun, the angel will only pull off one set of affs-which if wrathed, that's literally only 2 afflictions (within the current 8s) and that won't be enough to "hamper" in the current meta of how simple it is to walk out of anything short of a crux, pfifth or a climax stun. At 4s, it's a simple cure a possible aff that prevents movement and it's a reset or a reset and forced to go for <25% ego or max holyfire to be slain.

Talkan

Daemel said:

Sulwh said:

Celestines already have multiple viable killpaths: Judgment, Absolve, Inquisition (it is an instakill in the same sense that toad curse is one - the person that is being inquisitioned should die unless mistakes happen or they are rescued), Meteor (especially with the new wondercenser), Cauterise, and Soulless (but let's be real, why would you ever use it when Judgment is Soulless but a thousand times better?). They have tools to hamper someone and keep them in the room for meteor: carcer, shieldstun, web. If the meteor is timed well and you are able to drop the meteor immediately before the opponent uses balance/equilibrium, then shieldstun/web has a great chance of lasting until the meteor falls.

Absolve is already an amazing pressuring tool even though it is not viable for solo kills (there are other killpaths for solo: judgment and meteor). If there is a Celestine in a group, then you have to watch your mana usage for clotting. The Nihilism equivalent, Wrack, at least requires the target to be bound or paralyzed. Absolve only requires 50% mana.

I think it is neat that class reworks are being done, but I do not understand the rationale in removing 2 conditional viable group instakills and replacing it with, on paper, an extremely strong killpath.

1. The thing about Absolve is that while yes, it is a killsteal move-it is only that. A Celestine can't reliably pull it off without a Tk mage/Nekotai and wiccans to a lesser degree meaning that they having to reach outside their org to achieve the method as Celest typically don't have TK mages. They are predominantly dreamweavers or runists to a lesser degree. Also, Wrack is nowhere -near- as equivalent as absolve. Wrack may have an extra requirement, but it can be pulled off without help because of the way Nihilists are set up greatly for success even with the recent upgrade they received in the last two or three years. You can't amissio/powersink your way to absolve with afflictions that cure at the speed of light that is given actively ~4s or passively at ~8s with the angel. So the removal of absolve makes sense to me here.

2. Tools to hamper like carcer/web/shieldstun/tower(fall) card are negligble because of some artifacts make those tools lolzy irrelevant. Understandably they're not meant to be 100% inescapable which is correct, but they can also use a much-needed upgrade in proc rates in blocking escape to allow them more use for necessity.

3. My concern is the reduction in stun duration because for balance reasons, the new mech -has- to take into account of Soulless and Meteor kills. I get the impression that this new suite of affs MIGHT be good for cauterize, but I don't know. However, I think the stun needs to be at least 6 or 7s which is still a reduction from what it is now, but it should be baby steps in duration reduction to see how viable it is to pull off those two. It is already bad that you can't do anything while Soulless is being channeled, but also within that time and stun, the angel will only pull off one set of affs-which if wrathed, that's literally only 2 afflictions (within the current 8s) and that won't be enough to "hamper" in the current meta of how simple it is to walk out of anything short of a crux, pfifth or a climax stun. At 4s, it's a simple cure a possible aff that prevents movement and it's a reset or a reset and forced to go for <25% ego or max holyfire to be slain.

Yes, precisely so- particularly point #3. The original post essentially turns Celestines into a class that can only kill in groups with the Sacraments instakill outlined. Which...they can already do with Absolve. So while it may be slightly *easier* to kill with an ego instakill as a Celestine, it doesn't solve the core problem, which seems to be that it can not overcome any amount of healing to keep a target from simply ignoring your offense or leaving the area at will.

The changes to the class need to be focused on what the Celestines are meant to be: a "glass cannon" of afflictions that set up timed instakills during which they're very vulnerable. The risk vs reward, hand-wringing of "I've thrown everything into this ONE moment to secure a kill" is core to the Celestine experience and that shouldn't be changed so that they have an easier time in large groups.

Brawrur

Angels literally have shackles and stun/prone as an affliction they can deliver.

Look, the complaints you're raising here about Celestines having to face are universal issues every class has to face.

You should not be asking to have a class that has a counter to every solution, particularly not a class that has counters to things that no other class has. Movement creep is an issue that EVERYONE has to deal with.  The comments about having a 6-7s stun on... an instakill which works like climax (% of max damage and then kill based on %) is honestly alarming. Do you REALLY need that to get kills? Seems extremely excessive.

You're really playing down how strong this new instakill would be. 

Especially with the existing synergy Celest already has in place for this sort of stuff, and their powerful existing  non-synergistic abilities.

Forget how many absolve kills there have been, that's completely irrelevant, especially in the wake of succumb being gutted and the fact that people are clearly struggling to pull off kills that are literally 1 > 2 > 3 in terms of simplicity right now.

Have you considered making Aquachems drain mana instead of ego? Thus assisting Absolve? It has internal and inter-org synergy, removes a really problematic powerhouse and might promote more of a TK focus.


Also Chogan, basically every killpath is negated by walking out of the room (or using alternate movement.) Like, it's not unique that your class can't force people to stay in the room and die to you, and nothing should be balanced around this being the case.

Not a single one of my concerns about this have been met with an answer, which only makes me think the worst.

Talkan

Brawrur said:

Also Chogan, basically every killpath is negated by walking out of the room (or using alternate movement.) Like, it's not unique that your class can't force people to stay in the room and die to you, and nothing should be balanced around this being the case.

One thing you're forgetting is that all Celestine's timed instakills have two components 1) You can't do anything after it begins and/or 2) You can't leave the room either.

So yes, a knight certainly has issues keeping someone from walking away. But if the target DOES walk away while they're ready for an instakill, you can just leave and initiate the kill. If you walk out of a room while Soulless is active, then it automatically fails, the Celestine has to invest time (at least 28 seconds, but realistically more), and power because to get to the point where Soulless can even reliably be used, you have to invest 35p. 12p for inquisition, 8p for enigma, and 5p for wrath.

So yes, certainly movement creep is an issue for everyone, but the whole *point* of Celestines is stopping that movement at critical, well planned times. You shouldn't be able to do it without fail, every single time and you shouldn't be able to do it ANYtime, but when you've laid the groundwork, you should be able to do it somewhat reliably.

Brawrur

Talkan said:

Brawrur said:

Also Chogan, basically every killpath is negated by walking out of the room (or using alternate movement.) Like, it's not unique that your class can't force people to stay in the room and die to you, and nothing should be balanced around this being the case.

One thing you're forgetting is that all Celestine's timed instakills have two components 1) You can't do anything after it begins and/or 2) You can't leave the room either.

So yes, a knight certainly has issues keeping someone from walking away. But if the target DOES walk away while they're ready for an instakill, you can just leave and initiate the kill. If you walk out of a room while Soulless is active, then it automatically fails, the Celestine has to invest time (at least 28 seconds, but realistically more), and power because to get to the point where Soulless can even reliably be used, you have to invest 35p. 12p for inquisition, 8p for enigma, and 5p for wrath.

So yes, certainly movement creep is an issue for everyone, but the whole *point* of Celestines is stopping that movement at critical, well planned times. You shouldn't be able to do it without fail, every single time and you shouldn't be able to do it ANYtime, but when you've laid the groundwork, you should be able to do it somewhat reliably.

This is the case for all timed instakills...

Why are wrath and enigma being brought into the costing here? Enigma is pre-prep and if you're building towards soulless you can also treat Wrath as pre-prep. Neither are really necessary, and this is something no other guardian gets by any stretch. The closest is unravelling someone's shadow.

And... Other classes laying the groundwork and then getting screwed by movement is... Literally all the classes. I'll just repeat again, none of this is Celestine exclusive and I will be seriously pissed off if Celestines get some really powerful ability that locks someone down in this way.

Sulwh

Meteor is a timed instakill that is not a hard channel. A tertiary killpath is still a killpath, especially if it is extremely powerful when enabled by the new wondercenser. The number of times an instakill goes off is not indicative of power. If you want to talk about rare instakills, how about the last time you saw someone die to drunkenfool? Or cremate? I've seen more tae'dae bearhug instakills than both of those combined.

As for Chogan, there's something called refresh power? Or even another person? You cannot balance around only duels because 1v1 is basically nonexistent in this game. The smallest scale combat tends to be 3v3 for war seal challenges.

For bleeding, besides Glomdoring, which is understandably specialized in bleeding, high bleeding numbers can be reached by pureblades or monks, regardless of class simply due to how their skills work. Between hemorrhaging and twist, you can put quite a bit of mana pressure on people.

Daemel

Brawrur said:

Talkan said:

Brawrur said:

Also Chogan, basically every killpath is negated by walking out of the room (or using alternate movement.) Like, it's not unique that your class can't force people to stay in the room and die to you, and nothing should be balanced around this being the case.

One thing you're forgetting is that all Celestine's timed instakills have two components 1) You can't do anything after it begins and/or 2) You can't leave the room either.

So yes, a knight certainly has issues keeping someone from walking away. But if the target DOES walk away while they're ready for an instakill, you can just leave and initiate the kill. If you walk out of a room while Soulless is active, then it automatically fails, the Celestine has to invest time (at least 28 seconds, but realistically more), and power because to get to the point where Soulless can even reliably be used, you have to invest 35p. 12p for inquisition, 8p for enigma, and 5p for wrath.

So yes, certainly movement creep is an issue for everyone, but the whole *point* of Celestines is stopping that movement at critical, well planned times. You shouldn't be able to do it without fail, every single time and you shouldn't be able to do it ANYtime, but when you've laid the groundwork, you should be able to do it somewhat reliably.

This is the case for all timed instakills...

Why are wrath and enigma being brought into the costing here? Enigma is pre-prep and if you're building towards soulless you can also treat Wrath as pre-prep. Neither are really necessary, and this is something no other guardian gets by any stretch. The closest is unravelling someone's shadow.

And... Other classes laying the groundwork and then getting screwed by movement is... Literally all the classes. I'll just repeat again, none of this is Celestine exclusive and I will be seriously pissed off if Celestines get some really powerful ability that locks someone down in this way.

This is actually not the case for all timed instakills, because not all classes function mechanically the same way to achieve their instakills. Are you stating that bards require critical and well-planned timing to kill someone?  As far as I'm aware and have seen done numerously is that a bard with little skill will just blank note and go straight into death song while everyone tries to kill/hold down the target. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, so I don't agree that their instant kill requires a lot of planning and pre-prep. It would also be foolish to not consider wrath and enigma to take into account power consumption. Pre-prep yes, but you have to fling your cards with precision as you only get 3 masks-then you have to reset it if your timed burst fails.