I feel that it's completely by design that they want Envoys who are interested in the position for the sake of making the game better, not enriching themselves, yes.
What? All my reports are self-buffs couched in reports meant to "enrich" the game. Also, I feel being able to joke around and see a lighter side of admin is a good perk of being envoy.
I'm starting to wonder if you're just being deliberately contrary now.
If the admin decide envoys taking on extra work in reviewing reports is worthy of reward, that's their decision.
I'm pointing out that your comparison isn't apt; they are completely different things entirely. The payment aspect is one of the more obvious, that's all. I could kind of say the same thing back, because I just have no idea how this could in any way be implemented reasonably without someone being able to abuse the heck out of it- excepting Admin oversight to make people play nicely, which just isn't desirable.
Alright, apologies if offence was taken at my contrary remark. You are able to argue a person to exhaustion, but I think we just have fundamentally different perspectives. I think my idea has merit and my comparison was valid. You don't, and that's fine. Ultimately, as with everything else, it's for Estarra to decide if she likes the idea or not.
An envoys work load is somewhere between none and a part time job but it is up to the particular envoy.
For this, current envoys get a mention in the guild help files. We get a little ooc interaction with a few of the admin and a sense of satisfaction that they are making a difference. We also get the occasional rant that we are part of a system that is ruining the game and are called idiots by people who are not allowed to use a stove without supervision. But it's all in a day's work.
While I don't really have anything to add to the debate, I would like to say that I (and I'm sure the other admin!) really appreciate the hard work the Envoys put in. It is obvious that our envoys are very knowledgeable and passionate about improving the game and I really respect all the time you guys put in on that front.
I made a mistake in giving a skill as a specific example of a problem endemic in the envoy system that derailed the topic. I would like to address what I feel are the pros and cons of the envoy system and how I think it would be best served by being adjusted. If possible, I would like to hear from other people who have participated in the envoy system to perhaps give their own lists or discussion points.
I would ask that we limit the discussion to the envoy system specifically and not skills or discussion of previous reports.
Pros:
The system was created to give the players a specific scheduled voice in skills, and in this works to serve that purpose
It provides a medium for people to discuss what they view might be problems and possible solutions.
It allows for single instances of change and the scheduled nature of when reports happens works to provide incentive to envoys to consistently submit reports.
Cons:
With the limited amount of combatants and their spread, the envoy system does not necessarily have the best people in the game envolved at any one time due to the limitation of one per guild. Furthermore, the need to have an envoy can lead to those who are not very interested in combat and do not intend to learn combat becoming an envoy simply because the guild needs someone to do this, often even at the reluctance of the person doing it.
The fact that envoys are tied to a specific guild creates the idea that they are advocates for that guild first.
It is exceedingly difficult to make dependent changes. This means making one skill weaker while simultaneously making another stronger or changing multiple skills to work towards a single focus.
The envoys does not allow open discussions with the gods to determine why specifically reports have been rejected or accepted. The change to this was to include sweeping positions like no clone skills, no discussion of other skills in your report, no trying to address skills in other classes without that envoys support which can make it extremely discouraging when attempting to solve problems.
The hard limit of one issue per month means that you aren't necessarily addressing what most needs to be addressed, but what is most likely to be passed.
My suggestions for resolving these issues while maintaining the pros. Leave envoy as an administrator appointed role, but do not have a set amount of envoys. Envoys should be appointed based on their knowledge, skill, and involvement with the game.
Remove the limit of one report submitted a month, or the attempt to make decisions on reports by the next month.
Every accept/reject cycle, set a 1-2 hour period for envoys and gods to get together to discuss specific issues and comments on a report, Allow rejected reports to be resubmitted with edits up to 2 times.
Make it clear that the position is completely OOC, and player politics should not play into the discussions at all. Provide an area for envoys to meet and test skills outside of the IC area of the game. Remove any envoy that proves too toxic to the system after discussion with the gods about how to improve their envoy performance (I understand that at I am likely one of these people at this point) Possibly also providing an alias for the envoy channel of using our real first name to encourage us to remember that we are all players trying to enjoy and improve a game.
Have the gods, whenever they see a problem or want a discussion, to request that reports of certain topics be submitted. For instance, for a couple of months it could be reports to help newbies get involved in the game then how to handle afk bashing, to what can be done about willpower/endurance. This would be in addition to normal report and perhaps providing goodwill for submitting reports for this which would allow a little more face time with a god regarding other topics.
The hard limit is an issue. I recently looked at the suggestions that all Magnagoran guilds have made over the whole 39 month durations of this current envoy systems. There is a clear disparity in the activity level of each guild in that area, and I have no doubt that if I bothered to include all the guilds in the assessment there would be wider variances.
Just for example, the Cacophony have made suggestions 30 times while the Ur'guard have only done so 15 times. So over the 3+ years that this system has been in place, opportunities have been lost to contribute to the game's improvement, and in the current system, there is no way to regain those opportunities.
Also what do you do when you perceived a issue with one of your skills and the solution would be detrimental to your organization. There is no incentive to use your only slot to address those kind of issues. I'm not saying that some aren't willing to do it anyway, but I can't see any incentive.
The envoy has to have reason to slate the nerf though. They have to deal with their guild after it, and they give up the ability to buff another skill in the process.
You can fix shadowtwist to work with tertiaries instead of being its own solo method. But how long would that take? How likely is an overhaul of the skill? Chances are you either get solution 4 or told you wasted the report. What about Reality being able to stop smob raids and break groups solo? Report 627 was turned down by admin, who for some reason felt it should ignore distort. They said it had a "small chance" of moving people, has anyone seen it not hit multiple people? Report 627 was a solid report, very specific, and covered a known issue. The report should have passed, it was divinely vetoed because the perception of the admin did not match the players who see/use it.
The above block feels ranty, so I wanted to clarify. I would love a fix and submit. Every month is a report, within a week of results you make fixes and admin can reply again. This requires more admin oversight sadly, but increases chances of problems being fixed.
One of the main problems I have with the envoy system is the way some envoy's are appointed. For instance, Kregarn -just- joined the Minstrels not long ago, and he's already the envoy. I don't care how comfortable you are with game mechanics and combat, there should be some sort of physical requirements before you can be envoy, like time in-guild, or a specific guild rank, or a guild election. Not just "Patron likes this person and thinks they will do well, so they get the slot".
/totallynotbitter
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
One of the main problems I have with the envoy system is the way some envoy's are appointed. For instance, Kregarn -just- joined the Minstrels not long ago, and he's already the envoy. I don't care how comfortable you are with game mechanics and combat, there should be some sort of physical requirements before you can be envoy, like time in-guild, or a specific guild rank, or a guild election. Not just "Patron likes this person and thinks they will do well, so they get the slot".
/totallynotbitter
While I can't say how every admin does it, I really doubt it is based on whether or Patron likes you. Being an Envoy is also about being able to work well with the other Envoys and the admin, so I don't think you'll see it changed to be some sort of election by the guild.
Kregarn is the only Minstrel who's actively working with our spec and trying to boil down to the mechanics and underlying tact. He definitely deserves the position, because he's the only one that would actually put it to good use. For a little perspective, the Minstrels haven't had a report submitted since September of last year. Kregarn has three reports in the works already. So I say go Kregarn, it was an appointment based on pretty obvious potential and a willingness to get it done. That's how envoys should always work, imho.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
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With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
One of the main problems I have with the envoy system is the way some envoy's are appointed. For instance, Kregarn -just- joined the Minstrels not long ago, and he's already the envoy. I don't care how comfortable you are with game mechanics and combat, there should be some sort of physical requirements before you can be envoy, like time in-guild, or a specific guild rank, or a guild election. Not just "Patron likes this person and thinks they will do well, so they get the slot".
/totallynotbitter
While I can't say how every admin does it, I really doubt it is based on whether or Patron likes you. Being an Envoy is also about being able to work well with the other Envoys and the admin, so I don't think you'll see it changed to be some sort of election by the guild.
Tell me more about how I was passed over as Ninjakari guild envoy in favor of Arimisia, or how Xazlael was chosen for Geo guild envoy for so long, and those of us who actively worked with our skills were just told to "pass our ideas through our envoys and help them if they don't understand how things work"
Edit: I'd also like to think that I don't have an issue with working with the admin. I don't believe I've had any complaints in the past with what work I've done. Just saying.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
As for Kregarn, that's good to hear, and i know he'll do a fine job. I still don't see how being in the guild for such a short time, regardless of the willingness to work, should give you the privilege and responsibility of being envoy.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Who cares who submits the reports, as long as they are good reports.
Because I'd like to think that an envoy is familiar with their skills, invested in their guild, and comfortable with working with people in an ooc fashion. Case in point: Luthian, being appointed Geo envoy. He had no fragging clue what it meant. We had to explain it to him, as well as explain a lot of his own skills to him, as well as the mechanics of Lusternia. He actually resigned as envoy because he didnt feel as if he could do the position justice.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
An envoy also does more than submit reports--they need to talk with the other envoys and the admin and work things out. Yeah, if all you need is someone to submit reports that others wrote, anyone can be an envoy. I'd rather have the person writing the reports, working with others and doing the research be the envoy.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I'd like to also explain that my slight rant shouldn't be viewed as an attack on any particular person or patron, and I apologise if anyone took it that way. I just feel the Envoy system should be a bit more regulated on how envoys are chosen, and perhaps some sort of grading system for envoys. If Envoy A from Org A is able to come to agreements with Envoy B from Org B, and talk things out reasonably, they get good grades. If they constantly oppose Envoy B no matter what B suggests, perhaps they need to find another line of work. I do feel there is a lot of partisanship in the Envoys, and though I can understand it, that doesn't make it a good thing.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Regarding all the envoy war comments: It's possible that things have changed since I was envoy but I doubt it. What I noticed when the admin squashed cross-guild reports was that the envoy war was very much alive but turned a lot colder. Basically instead of going after others skills you would self buff and if anyone accosted you about whatever crazy skill combinations you had you just had to be polite and state that you didn't think it was a problem.
I hear this latest group of envoys is much better but one of the reasons I left envoy originally was because I felt there was a core group of envoys willing to nerf themselves to make the game better and then another (potentially larger) group of envoys executing the tactic above. So the longer I stayed in the position the more I felt like I was performing a disservice to my guild.
Edit: Also I feel envoys should be combatants. You can read a lot of theory and perform a lot of testing but some things just end up working differently "in the field".
Comments
Also, I feel being able to joke around and see a lighter side of admin is a good perk of being envoy.
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Just for example, the Cacophony have made suggestions 30 times while the Ur'guard have only done so 15 times. So over the 3+ years that this system has been in place, opportunities have been lost to contribute to the game's improvement, and in the current system, there is no way to regain those opportunities.
Also what do you do when you perceived a issue with one of your skills and the solution would be detrimental to your organization. There is no incentive to use your only slot to address those kind of issues. I'm not saying that some aren't willing to do it anyway, but I can't see any incentive.
You can fix shadowtwist to work with tertiaries instead of being its own solo method. But how long would that take? How likely is an overhaul of the skill? Chances are you either get solution 4 or told you wasted the report. What about Reality being able to stop smob raids and break groups solo? Report 627 was turned down by admin, who for some reason felt it should ignore distort. They said it had a "small chance" of moving people, has anyone seen it not hit multiple people? Report 627 was a solid report, very specific, and covered a known issue. The report should have passed, it was divinely vetoed because the perception of the admin did not match the players who see/use it.
The above block feels ranty, so I wanted to clarify. I would love a fix and submit. Every month is a report, within a week of results you make fixes and admin can reply again. This requires more admin oversight sadly, but increases chances of problems being fixed.
/totallynotbitter
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Tell me more about how I was passed over as Ninjakari guild envoy in favor of Arimisia, or how Xazlael was chosen for Geo guild envoy for so long, and those of us who actively worked with our skills were just told to "pass our ideas through our envoys and help them if they don't understand how things work"
Edit: I'd also like to think that I don't have an issue with working with the admin. I don't believe I've had any complaints in the past with what work I've done. Just saying.
I hear this latest group of envoys is much better but one of the reasons I left envoy originally was because I felt there was a core group of envoys willing to nerf themselves to make the game better and then another (potentially larger) group of envoys executing the tactic above. So the longer I stayed in the position the more I felt like I was performing a disservice to my guild.
Edit: Also I feel envoys should be combatants. You can read a lot of theory and perform a lot of testing but some things just end up working differently "in the field".