Ascension - Wyrdenwood, Lag, Bragging Rights.

Brawrur

I can only imagine a lot of people have feelings they want to get about what happened and if people don't voice their concerns then we'll never improve anything. 

I'm going to add my thoughts at some point but I think it'd be wise of me to take a break before I properly articulate how frustrating this whole event was.

I'm obviously expecting this thread to be met with a bit of confusion from those who weren't facing Creeping. Just be a bit respectful. 

Steingrim

#SELFAWAREWOLVES

Brawrur

See above: The subject of many complaint threads.

Steingrim

At best the arguement you have is it may be easier for woods then chems. But you weren't asking for any nerf to chem stacking when it benefited you, were you?

Synl

https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3884/the-state-of-aeonics/p1

Brawrur

That's probably because it doesn't...? It hasn't.

Every Wyrdenwood doing Creeping is a minimum of 1000 extra damage, but potentially 2k damage. And stun which stops you from curing before the next one unlike real chemists. As well as a free 1k bleeding.

You were getting 7+ kills from about 4 rooms away. It's true that a lot of that is to do with lag, but it's not as if you couldn't do it in a quake or any other combat event.

Parhelion

IHC had more melders, more people able to just scout and walk around and mark nodes for braziering, more beckoners, more bards, at least two old-school players who came back just for Ascension including one ascendant, and seven different people who could chase down the staff. They control roughly half the domoths, which they could have tuned to a specific person, guild, or org to give that person buffs to help. 

Shadowlight had two people for staff duty. One (me) was specifically told several dozen times that his job wasn't to fight, it was to hold the staff. Ciaran's job was to chase the staff, and bring it to me. Everyone else was a wyrdenwood/chem, we had one melder (Ayisdra), I think two Celestines for beckoning (they didn't do as much as the Nihilists did, #notsalty), and we had some warriors with a few shadowdancers. We specifically set up for damage and fortressing, which is what Ascension is about. It's an endurance trial. The last 15 minutes, I just laid on my INVOKE SERPENT alias and hoped it would go through, yelling over voicechat about needing salting until it happened. 


Having said all that, there was absolutely nothing that kept any of you from being a pyrochem, wildewood, or geochem, link each of your corresponding fellows, and aoe bombing the hell out of us. We were focused about our task, you were not. That doesn't mean you deserved to lose, but we squeaked out a win despite being outmatched. 

Now, I'm not saying all of this to piss you off. I don't know how much prep you personally spent getting ready for this. I went out of my way to try and max my resistances as much as possible, investing in a level 3 health rune as well as three different level 3 resistance runes towards elements I knew I'd be taking damage from.  I changed classes TWICE to get where I needed, first taking up Sentinel (warrior) for tankiness, then afterwards finding out that monk would be marginally tankier. I invested in maxing out my wonderpipe for more elemental protection as well as wonderpiping krokani for some protection as well as reduced blackout, and even secretly reincarnated into a kephera temporarily to take less damage from attacks, with my divine pendant giving me the level 5 kephera perk, sending roughly a third of fire and asphyx (Pyrochem), cutting and blunt (ninjakari, warrior, nihilist torture, some Caco damage) damage to my 13/13 ego instead. I made sure I had aethercandies and full tattoos (22% armour, plus a shield for another 3% as needed). I looked for every perk I could find, even going so far as chatting up a divine and working to impress them to earn a truefavour for increased protection.  I juggled four different karma blessings. I chatted up everyone on my side and asked for tips, help with reflexes, and any way to help my chances.

I jumped through hoops to get where I was, and I still had people carrying me, because it's a team effort. That's how it works.

Mboagn

Steingrim said:

At best the arguement you have is it may be easier for woods then chems. But you weren't asking for any nerf to chem stacking when it benefited you, were you?

Chems can stack and increase their radius, but not with the ease that woods can. In order to achieve the stun on a chem bomb, you need at least two chemists, both initiating their bombs close enough that autocuring won't cure off an affliction before the 10-power bomb hits. Furthermore, chem bombs are always going to be charging up in 10s, while wood bombs go off at 8s.

So I don't see why you want to bring up chem stacking when its effects are not even comparable to wood stacking. With that said, I am completely in favour of nerfing chemists to oblivion if it means we can at least tone down woods into something reasonable.

Steingrim

if the stuns are stacking you should definitely bug that.

I'm on the record as saying that stuns are cheap and the admin overuse them.

I'm still waiting on melds to be fixed.

Parhelion

Brawrur said:

Every Wyrdenwood doing Creeping is a minimum of 1000 extra damage, but potentially 2k damage. And stun which stops you from curing before the next one unlike real chemists. As well as a free 1k bleeding.

Except that stuns don't stack, and when you come out of stun, there's a period of time where you're immune to stun for a while.

Brawrur

I'm sorry but that post is just spitting in the face of everybody reading this thread, and those who actually tried hard for this event, because everyone reading it knows it's a big steaming pile of bullcrap. It's a slap in those who came back time and time again trying different strategies to try and break in.

You were losing badly until you started exploiting the Wyrdenwood creeping. 

This really wasn't some underdog clutching a victory or anything remotely romantic. Pretty sure you had more people, with a bunch of constant healing auras to keep you alive. They were useless though, as all you needed was the good old creeping factory. Creeping probably made up about 90% of kills on your side.

Nearly everyone who actually took part in that fight against the Wyrdenwoods came away feeling honestly demoralised and completely alienated.


Stuns don't stack, but a 3s stun (which chemists don't get at a distance) is deadly when even 2 more bombs are coming up.

Mboagn

The stuns aren't stacking. What I mean is, you don't need to stack your bombs in very short timeframes in order to achieve the stun effect of the 10-power bombs: wyrdenwoods demigods do it natively (1-aff bonus), demi+ even moreso (2-aff bonus). Even having just 1 wood will guarantee the stun effect + bigger damage; for chems, you need at least 2.

The stuns don't even need to stack, because stun stops all actions. Once the first bomb hits you, you can't heal up or prevent the rest from hitting you, too. All that's needed is for them to go off within the 3 seconds that the stun lasts. That's the time window for woods: 3 seconds. For chems, it's a fraction of a second (you need to beat autocuring).

Parhelion

Brawrur said:

I'm sorry but that post is just spitting in the face of everybody reading this thread, and those who actually tried hard for this event, because everyone reading it knows it's a big steaming pile of bullcrap. It's a slap in those who came back time and time again trying different strategies to try and break in.

You were losing badly until you started exploiting the Wyrdenwood creeping. 
Exploiting how? It's a skill. They used it. Nothing kept Wildewoods on your side from using Glinshari, or Pyrochems on your side from using Arson, or Geochems from using Taintbomb.

This really wasn't some underdog clutching a victory or anything remotely romantic. Pretty sure you had more people, with a bunch of constant healing auras to keep you alive. They were useless though, as all you needed was the good old creeping factory. Creeping probably made up about 90% of kills on your side.
We had one healer, so far as I know, and I don't think they kept auras on me. Evette did sacrifice for me every so often, especially at the end. Not only that, but nothing kept Serenwilde from having healers cure Ixion. Instead, they almost all went Spiritsinger.

Nearly everyone who actually took part in that fight against the Wyrdenwoods came away feeling honestly demoralised and completely alienated.
I'm sorry to hear that.

Stuns don't stack, but a 3s stun (which chemists don't get at a distance) is deadly when even 2 more bombs are coming up.
Yes, you're right. 

Mboagn

I would like it if chems and woods don't get equated, because their capabilities are far from being equal.

Parhelion

It sounds like maybe demi+ for dracnari/Lucidian/trill should be changed to reduce charge time from bombs. 

Kaizynne

I don't know what you mean when we "started exploiting" creeping. That was legit our strategy from second 1 of ascension. Yes, if you had 8 wildewood, it would have been the same effect on us. Brawrur, you got 26 kills by yourself as a chem doing bombs (including a few multikills). If you had 5 pyrochems doing your 10p bomb, even without affs, you would have had the same result. 

Do I think wyrden/wildewood are a lot stronger than xyzchemantics? Absolutely. I absolutely think they're more powerful with the +2 "affs" and the 2s faster bomb time. 

If you had all flexed to your respective chemwood classes, you would have had a very similar result to us. 

I understand that you are all, for the most part, unhappy with the turnout of ascension and the way things went down. I retired my old character because of an Ascension event. 

Choros definitely was not trying to talk himself up and make you all feel worse. So please don't go attacking him for that, even if it seems like he did. 

For the most part, IHC did really good. I definitely think there are things that could use improving, but that goes for both sides. 

Tl;Dr - ascension sucks, we've all been there. Could you have done exactly what we did? Yes, even without the xwood racial. You guys did really good. 

Synl

Try this: Next report cycle, submit a report.

Problem: Wyrdenwood and Wildewood race give too large a benefit to their class.
Solution 1: Change the -Wood races to be a cosmetic only change, with the character keeping the benefits of their current race (functioning similar to race hats).
Solution 2: Same as solution 1, but make all bombs across all specs mirrored in damage type percent (ie. all non-physical, 33% physical, or 50% physical) and effects where relevant (all do the same amount of bleeding mana drain etc just change the relevant affs for the org).

Brawrur

Did I get any bomb kills?

Kaizynne

Brawrur said:

Did I get any bomb kills?

Yes.

08:36:43 Enero has been chewed away to ash and a blackened corpse by Crimebear Brawrur Lunarose, of the Psychedelic Paw's ravenous arson.
08:36:43 You see the death occur at Lost within a raging duststorm.  (?)
08:36:43 Nelras has been chewed away to ash and a blackened corpse by Crimebear Brawrur Lunarose, of the Psychedelic Paw's ravenous arson.
08:36:43 You see the death occur at Lost within a raging duststorm.  (?)

Someone also died to you w/ fire damage before that, in the same timestamp.

Parhelion

Kaizynne said:

Choros definitely was not trying to talk himself up and make you all feel worse. So please don't go attacking him for that, even if it seems like he did. 

This.

I'm fully aware that my team carried me. There's not a single person in the group that didn't help make sure this win happened. All I did was work my ass off to make sure they had something they could work with. What I wasn't going to do was go out of my way to make their work any harder than it had to be. I invested in myself, asked for help and advice, tweaked my reflexes, and tried to earn their support. I wasn't owed their support, and both Ixion and Ciaran deserved this more than I did.

Parhelion

Brawrur said:

Did I get any bomb kills?

type KILLS and check all of the one from the timestamps during ascension.

Brawrur

Kaizynne said:

I don't know what you mean when we "started exploiting" creeping. That was legit our strategy from second 1 of ascension. Yes, if you had 8 wildewood, it would have been the same effect on us. Brawrur, you got 26 kills by yourself as a chem doing bombs (including a few multikills). If you had 5 pyrochems doing your 10p bomb, even without affs, you would have had the same result. 

Do I think wyrden/wildewood are a lot stronger than xyzchemantics? Absolutely. I absolutely think they're more powerful with the +2 "affs" and the 2s faster bomb time. 

If you had all flexed to your respective chemwood classes, you would have had a very similar result to us. 

I understand that you are all, for the most part, unhappy with the turnout of ascension and the way things went down. I retired my old character because of an Ascension event. 

Choros definitely was not trying to talk himself up and make you all feel worse. So please don't go attacking him for that, even if it seems like he did. 

For the most part, IHC did really good. I definitely think there are things that could use improving, but that goes for both sides. 

Tl;Dr - ascension sucks, we've all been there. Could you have done exactly what we did? Yes, even without the xwood racial. You guys did really good. 

Definitely didn't get 26 kills.

Also even Wildewood aren't as good Wyrdenwood.

Mboagn

Kaizynne said:

I don't know what you mean when we "started exploiting" creeping. That was legit our strategy from second 1 of ascension. Yes, if you had 8 wildewood, it would have been the same effect on us. Brawrur, you got 26 kills by yourself as a chem doing bombs (including a few multikills). If you had 5 pyrochems doing your 10p bomb, even without affs, you would have had the same result. 

Do I think wyrden/wildewood are a lot stronger than xyzchemantics? Absolutely. I absolutely think they're more powerful with the +2 "affs" and the 2s faster bomb time. 

If you had all flexed to your respective chemwood classes, you would have had a very similar result to us. 

I understand that you are all, for the most part, unhappy with the turnout of ascension and the way things went down. I retired my old character because of an Ascension event. 

Choros definitely was not trying to talk himself up and make you all feel worse. So please don't go attacking him for that, even if it seems like he did. 

For the most part, IHC did really good. I definitely think there are things that could use improving, but that goes for both sides. 

Tl;Dr - ascension sucks, we've all been there. Could you have done exactly what we did? Yes, even without the xwood racial. You guys did really good. 

Taking this piece by piece. Doing the 10-p bombs without affs is a terrible move. Testing on myself, the 10-p bomb without affs hits me for around 25% health, no stun. One of the 5-p bombs (pyrokinetic) is stronger, hitting at around 30% health, no stun. For comparison, a dry 10-p wyrdenwood bomb hits me for around 48% health, 3s stun.

This also answers the line of thought that if we had switched to chemwood (which most of us had - I'm a mancer, normally, Ixchilgal is illuminati), we would have the same result. The only way that we would have had the same result is if we all went Serenwilde and picked up Wildewood, or if we had double our numbers in chems.

The worst part about this Ascension even is that we knew that creeping was going to be the name of the game, we raised the issues and were shot down, we turned around and invested hard to get people wonderclock-20 for timestop, we developed shielding strategies, and all of it still went down the drain. And we're still being told to get good instead of having a proper look at Creeping. 

Parhelion

Brawrur said:

Also even Wildewood aren't as good Wyrdenwood.

I need to get some sleep, but I hope I can wake up and read your explanation of why this is true.

“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens.

Synl

https://pastebin.com/eh34sLgu

1. 22:36:30 - Talkan was slain by Brawrur.
2. 22:36:31 - Caleb was slain by Shango.
3. 22:36:32 - Snald was slain by Ixchilgal.
4. 22:36:37 - Enero was slain by Brawrur.
5. 22:36:37 - Nelras was slain by Brawrur.
6. 22:36:37 - Azula was slain by Kreon.
7. 22:36:37 - Kreon was slain by Brawrur.
8. 22:36:38 - Malarious was slain by Synl.
9. 22:36:42 - Aeldra was slain by Thalkros.
10. 22:36:45 - Bereias was slain by Brawrur.

Kaizynne

Looking over from the start of ascension to the end of it, on the deathsight live feed, I counted 26 kills by you. And imho, Wildewood is better. Also edited earlier w/ a log of you multikilling w/ a bomb. It was only two, but it was the first one I found in my chat capture.

Mboagn

Parhelion said:

Brawrur said:

Also even Wildewood aren't as good Wyrdenwood.

I need to get some sleep, but I hope I can wake up and read your explanation of why this is true.

“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens.

I don't know how Brawrur's analyzed it, but for me, it's because one of Creeping's afflictions is entanglement. Wildewood and Wyrdenwood might be equal in the ranged bomb game, but in-room, Wyrdenwood can simply keep using Vine Noose to deal damage + hinder + add another aff to Creeping's damage and stun.

For comparison: Wyrdenwood's affs are  vomiting, dysentery, paralysis, haemophilia, and entanglement

Wildewood's are broken arms or legs, clumsiness, faerie fire and a damaged skull.

edit; what is faeriefire? luminosity? 

Kaizynne

Mboagn said:

Kaizynne said:

I don't know what you mean when we "started exploiting" creeping. That was legit our strategy from second 1 of ascension. Yes, if you had 8 wildewood, it would have been the same effect on us. Brawrur, you got 26 kills by yourself as a chem doing bombs (including a few multikills). If you had 5 pyrochems doing your 10p bomb, even without affs, you would have had the same result. 

Do I think wyrden/wildewood are a lot stronger than xyzchemantics? Absolutely. I absolutely think they're more powerful with the +2 "affs" and the 2s faster bomb time. 

If you had all flexed to your respective chemwood classes, you would have had a very similar result to us. 

I understand that you are all, for the most part, unhappy with the turnout of ascension and the way things went down. I retired my old character because of an Ascension event. 

Choros definitely was not trying to talk himself up and make you all feel worse. So please don't go attacking him for that, even if it seems like he did. 

For the most part, IHC did really good. I definitely think there are things that could use improving, but that goes for both sides. 

Tl;Dr - ascension sucks, we've all been there. Could you have done exactly what we did? Yes, even without the xwood racial. You guys did really good. 

Taking this piece by piece. Doing the 10-p bombs without affs is a terrible move. Testing on myself, the 10-p bomb without affs hits me for around 25% health, no stun. One of the 5-p bombs (pyrokinetic) is stronger, hitting at around 30% health, no stun. For comparison, a dry 10-p wyrdenwood bomb hits me for around 48% health, 3s stun.

This also answers the line of thought that if we had switched to chemwood (which most of us had - I'm a mancer, normally, Ixchilgal is illuminati), we would have the same result. The only way that we would have had the same result is if we all went Serenwilde and picked up Wildewood, or if we had double our numbers in chems.

The worst part about this Ascension even is that we knew that creeping was going to be the name of the game, we raised the issues and were shot down, we turned around and invested hard to get people wonderclock-20 for timestop, we developed shielding strategies, and all of it still went down the drain. And we're still being told to get good instead of having a proper look at Creeping. 

I'm all for having a proper look at Creeping/Glinshari, and my point was, if you had 5 people using the 10p bomb at the same time/1-2 seconds apart, 25 * 5 is still enough to kill someone, was more my point. I was using my 10p bomb without affs after I flexed chem in the last ~15ish minutes, and I managed to snipe a kill or two or three. Though, if you couple ascension lag into the mix and bard passives, you should have at least 1-2 affs (Even though, yes, I know it's not reliable) when the bomb goes off. I am not in any way shape or form trying to tell you, 'hey use 10p bombs all the time because it's great' because, most of the time, you're right, it's not (unless you're a wilde/wyrdenwood).

Also yes, I think Luminosity is Faerifire.

Mboagn

If faeriefire is luminosity, Glinshari's affs are split between ice, slush, and steam.

Creeping's are all dust and writhe.

With that said, I've read the tone of admin replies and concede that Creeping is staying.

Parhelion

Mboagn said:

Parhelion said:

Brawrur said:

Also even Wildewood aren't as good Wyrdenwood.

I need to get some sleep, but I hope I can wake up and read your explanation of why this is true.

“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens.

I don't know how Brawrur's analyzed it, but for me, it's because one of Creeping's afflictions is entanglement. Wildewood and Wyrdenwood might be equal in the ranged bomb game, but in-room, Wyrdenwood can simply keep using Vine Noose to deal damage + hinder + add another aff to Creeping's damage and stun.

For comparison: Wyrdenwood's affs are  vomiting, dysentery, paralysis, haemophilia, and entanglement

Wildewood's are broken arms or legs, clumsiness, faerie fire and a damaged skull.

So your complaint is that Wyrdenwood can cause afflictions to their targets in a room to augment their bomb damage, but Wildewood cannot through their own version of a weapon upgrade. 

Fair enough. Which one of broken arms/legs/clumsiness/faeriefire or damaged skull do you think Garland should be able to do?

And if you're adding this, are you taking out Wildewood Treehug, which apparently deals broken limbs, large amounts of damage, and can hit with two rune afflictions (which are able to afflict with, yes, faeriefire and clumsiness)

Brawrur

Our 10p bomb actually does less damage than one of our 5p bombs if it doesn't have any affs on it. 

Also, yes, we can benefits to our 10p bomb, but any benefits a Wyrdenwood has have a +2 added on top. 

If we had 5 chemists using the 10p bomb at the same time it'd deal about 10k damage, which would kill people without runes or whatever Celestine buffs you were throwing around. There'd also be no stun.

5 Wyrdenwoods would do 20k damage and 5k bleeding, also stunning for 3s. I know that's slightly unfair since not everyone has the demi+ aff so let's bring that down a bit.

To 15k with 5k bleeding and stuns. And that's if no one has the demi+ thing.