Power Laws, City advancement, and Celest

Jaelise

Hi, I'm Jaelise. I'm not a newbie, but I play one in Lusternia. I've been debating about posting this, because in some ways I feel it's outing myself. But I think this information is important to consider for how actual newbies(or not-newbies) might experience different orgs. I made a list to compare power laws. It leaves out some information about Mag/Celest, but as a general idea:

Power Laws Summary: 

Magnagora  - Blocked at CR1, base draw of 20 to 130 power per weave starting at CR2
Hallifax   - Take what you need, suggested no more than 50 per weave starting at CR1
Serenwilde - 40 - 200 - unlimited(VAs) power per weave starting at CR1
Glomdoring - 600 power per year, starting at CR1
Celest     - Blocked at CR1, base draw of 20 to 80 to 150(VAs) power per weave starting at CR2
Gaudiguch  - 20 - 80 power per weave starting at CR1

Ok... Magnagora and Celest are the only orgs that power block newbies at CR1. For the record, I personally have never had problems with the power laws of any org - until now. Here's the problem:

- Quests take time to learn. I'm not very familiar with Celest's epic quest, so this makes it an undesirable way to gain cityfavours early on(as it would be for actual newbies, too)

- Power donations require some knowledge of how to monitor one's progress, which 1. Is information actual newbies don't have, and 2. Is tedious and not much fun. It also requires bothering more experienced players for the information/favours, which is something difficult for truebies and shy people to do.

- Cultural stuff requires knowledge too, as well as some amount of confidence and awareness of org rp.

This leaves: 

- Conflict events are usually the easiest and most enjoyable way to be rewarded early on.

But at this given time, conflict events are often one-sided. This means that for many that I happen to be logged in for, there is a reasonable chance that no one else in Celest will be willing to attend. This... is a problem, in terms of participation and recognition. (Also as someone who is aware of conflict event timing, it is easier for me to "happen" to be logged in during them). 

Now, I know that the current political situation is not Celest's fault. But... actual newbies will not know this. What they will know is that they can't participate in most events, they can't draw power, and city advancement is difficult. The knowledge gaps are also made worse by the fact that most people in Celest seem - in my experience - difficult to approach. I've had an easier time with members of Glomdoring. I could almost say it's been easier talking to some people in Magnagora.

The power blocking is the biggest issue I have with all of this. Depending on dross power simply doesn't work if you attempt any sort of combat at all. Last night I tested something to submit a bug, and doing so cost me nearly half of my power, without being able to draw more. That's... incredibly frustrating. If the argument is I could ask for an exception - I don't think I should have to. And again, actual newbies usually won't, along with shy people.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

TLDR, I bring all this up not to be mean or call anyone out. These are my perceptions and the problems I've had with the way participation is handled and the way power laws work in Celest. I don't believe I would have stuck it out as long as I have if 1. I hadn't been warned by other players in advance that this would be the case, and 2. I hadn't had a genuine interest in learning Tahtetso combat. 

And I think that's a problem. Please consider solutions for it.

Mboagn

Does Celest have cityfavour rewards for bringing in power? Back when I was a wee newb, my first two city ranks were from power contributions. Not too familiar with the Celestian power quests, but from what I hear, it's fairly easy (just need to be able to handle water).

Xenthos

Your CL is very busy with RL events but has been making an effort to be around at least.  I understand that you said you are having some approachability issues, but I would highly recommend at least shooting Aknarin an IC message saying that you have some concerns with the cr1 powerblock, and asking if the Star Council would be willing to do a review.

The game does not have enough newbies for it to be a big problem imo.  Glom keeps newbies powerblocked until they ask to be unblocked; we ask if they read the power law scroll, if they say yes then have at it.  I think we are approaching it more from the angle that you do, that it is a required resource for many things and dross is often lacking.

Aeryon

I actually had difficulty getting unblocked even once I made it to CR2. Asked a power aide, got ummed and ahhed and are you sured at and told to talk to the Minister. I've had trouble getting recognition for the events I do make it to, trouble finding out if they even qualified because they weren't listed anywhere. I got a favour recently and was actually surprised to see I'd made it to CR3. It is getting slightly better recently, but at the point where I was still a real newbie, I couldn't get players in Celest to talk to me except for two others who were still new, and my GM at the time. 

@Mboagn, for power rewards, there is for bringing in 60 bards or scholars, which seems high, or for 60 supplicants (aka 6 rounds of the city power quest, aka 6 hours of work). For CR1, the guideline is: 
 - 100 power per three consecutive weaves
(If the citizen has contributed 300 or more power in one weave and has been cityfavoured, he is not eligible for another power donation cityfavour for the next two weaves.)
Note: I'm really not sure when reading this if they want 300 power for one favour, or 100.

And then CR2+:
500 power per weave, 2000 per year.

Anyway. Celest has been one of my favourites for a very long time, it was the home of the first character I invested a lot of money in, ship, manse shop, etc. It's not Celest hate. It's frustration that trying to go back on a new character has been thoroughly frustrating for various reasons, including what Jaelise has outlined above.

Kagato

Aeryon said:

@Mboagn, for power rewards, there is for bringing in 60 bards or scholars, which seems high, or for 60 supplicants (aka 6 rounds of the city power quest, aka 6 hours of work). For CR1, the guideline is: 
 - 100 power per three consecutive weaves
(If the citizen has contributed 300 or more power in one weave and has been cityfavoured, he is not eligible for another power donation cityfavour for the next two weaves.)
Note: I'm really not sure when reading this if they want 300 power for one favour, or 100.

You get 1 cityfavour for every 100 power, maximum of 3 favours can be 'stockpiled' - so for example
Monday: Earns 100 power, earning 1 favour
Tuesday: Brings in 300 power, but only earns 2 more favours, totalling the 3
Wednesday: Can't earn any more favours due to the limitation
Thursday: 'Resets', allowing you to earn 3 more favours.

That being said, I'm pretty sure it only takes two cityfavours to get to CR2.

Getting 100 power for a favour isn't especially difficult.  Starsuckers can be hunted on the water elemental plane as early as 20th circle, depending on your class and the power put into the pool is worth 1-5 power depending on how many water lords have been empowered.  If they have all been empowered, 16 starsuckers will net you 80 power in one trip.  If none have been empowered, yes it will take a bit longer since you will only get 16 power per trip.  If you are feeling a little more adventurous, you can wander into Ethereal Glomdoring and kill the shadow beasts in there for shadowy essence which can then be converted to light essence and added to the pool.  This is moderately safe due to Celest and Glomdoring being allies, but you still run the risk of people from other cities/communes coming in and trying to attack you.

Supplicants are another fairly easy method to gain power, netting 20 power with each circuit.

Lastly, as mentioned in another person's post, bringing scholars and bards to the city will generate power.  I forget how many bards and scholars wander the roads, but you can always borrow someone's puppy curios and they will lead you to scholars/bards if you want to do it the quick and easy way.

Not trying to be condescending or anything, these are just ways I'm thinking of off the top of my head that a fairly new Celest member fresh out of newton would be able to generate some power towards their first favour.

Sapphira

Is power the only way to earn favours in Celest? I like when older players favour because they're seeing a new person putting in effort and trying, not necessarily because the person ticked off x boxes and brought in the right numbers of whatevers. They get favoured up AND get to feel like they are being noticed and appreciated. Win win!

If Celest is very quiet that makes it a lot harder to be noticed. I think it's easy to forget that doing even org power quests can be time consuming and require a lot of effort for newbies who don't know their way around well, may not have systems, etc. Not to mention not having a lot of play time is a factor for some people! Recognising people are engaged and trying is a good thing. 

That being said, I feel if you're a person who knows what they're doing enough to really get into combat early, it shouldn't be hard to get two favours to get unblocked. Maybe the bigger issue is Celest being really hard on their CR1s?

Tridemon

Bringing in power, assisting in domoths, participating in timequakes, publishing books, revolts, flares, wildnodes, defense of territories, a number of extraterritorial quests, stage productions... and anyone at CR1 is automatically qualified for a second favor immediately.

Jaelise

Xenthos said:

Your CL is very busy with RL events but has been making an effort to be around at least.  I understand that you said you are having some approachability issues, but I would highly recommend at least shooting Aknarin an IC message saying that you have some concerns with the cr1 powerblock, and asking if the Star Council would be willing to do a review.

The game does not have enough newbies for it to be a big problem imo.  Glom keeps newbies powerblocked until they ask to be unblocked; we ask if they read the power law scroll, if they say yes then have at it.  I think we are approaching it more from the angle that you do, that it is a required resource for many things and dross is often lacking.

Right, the point is that it's a combination of factors, and I'm not saying it's Aknarin's fault specifically, because it's really not - regardless of RL work. It's not as if he's the only person I ever see logged in at all, so this isn't about him. (And I see him around pretty frequently, actually)

This is specifically about power blocking at CR1 that I think has some issues, for exactly the reason you said.

Jaelise

Tridemon said:

Bringing in power, assisting in domoths, participating in timequakes, publishing books, revolts, flares, wildnodes, defense of territories, a number of extraterritorial quests, stage productions... and anyone at CR1 is automatically qualified for a second favor immediately.

That may be what the laws say, but in practice, that's not how it appears to work. As Aeryon said, getting recognition for these things can be difficult. If both of us are having the same experience, please consider that there may be something to it.

Aeryon

Kagato said:

Aeryon said:

@Mboagn, for power rewards, there is for bringing in 60 bards or scholars, which seems high, or for 60 supplicants (aka 6 rounds of the city power quest, aka 6 hours of work). For CR1, the guideline is: 
 - 100 power per three consecutive weaves
(If the citizen has contributed 300 or more power in one weave and has been cityfavoured, he is not eligible for another power donation cityfavour for the next two weaves.)
Note: I'm really not sure when reading this if they want 300 power for one favour, or 100.

Lastly, as mentioned in another person's post, bringing scholars and bards to the city will generate power.  I forget how many bards and scholars wander the roads, but you can always borrow someone's puppy curios and they will lead you to scholars/bards if you want to do it the quick and easy way.

Not trying to be condescending or anything, these are just ways I'm thinking of off the top of my head that a fairly new Celest member fresh out of newton would be able to generate some power towards their first favour.

It was my own post, the same one you're quoting. It's sixty bards and scholars, which are a lot when there is frequently competition for them.

Five rounds of supplicants for one favour is still the better part of five hours.

Six rounds of supplicants means you can double up on that for the first rank, but afterwards not so much. 

I'm not saying there aren't other ways to gain favours. I'm saying - with Jaelise - that the power rules in Celest are confusing, and not really friendly to someone who might not have five hours to throw at it. I'm saying it's difficult, when nobody is talking to you, to know what's going on. It's difficult to know if the Water Lords have been empowered. It's difficult to get someone to unblock you even once you gain the rank, because they don't think it's a necessity, and they direct you on to someone else you might never see around. 

I have been lucky that the one person in my guild actively seeks me out for RP. I have been lucky that I've only missed out on one or two occasions where I might have been favoured and couldn't get anyone to respond to me about it. I never saw any advice about joining Crux at the time, Shadowlight now, and only found about it IC because I asked during a timequake I found my own way to. 

Jaelise hasn't been as lucky so far. 

We want to play in Celest, or we wouldn't be trying. Aeryon has a shop that I blow gold on every 12 days because literally nobody ever buys food in the city. I'm funneling credits for gold because I don't have the time to spare for Aeryon to try and bash with no artis and no friends to make gold. It's depressing. I love the Celestine class for RP. I miss playing in a Celest where I found a family that made my time there so amazing that I almost regret retiring the character.

We're not picking on you. We're talking openly about our concerns, because we think it has an effect on newer players. And just because MOST people aren't newer players, doesn't mean they don't exist. I know of at least three personally - one a transplant from another IRE, two completely new to MUDs before Lusternia - and I know they're not the only ones. 

Note: thank you for clarifying the power amounts.

Jaelise

Sapphira said:

Is power the only way to earn favours in Celest? I like when older players favour because they're seeing a new person putting in effort and trying, not necessarily because the person ticked off x boxes and brought in the right numbers of whatevers. They get favoured up AND get to feel like they are being noticed and appreciated. Win win!

If Celest is very quiet that makes it a lot harder to be noticed. I think it's easy to forget that doing even org power quests can be time consuming and require a lot of effort for newbies who don't know their way around well, may not have systems, etc. Not to mention not having a lot of play time is a factor for some people! Recognising people are engaged and trying is a good thing. 

That being said, I feel if you're a person who knows what they're doing enough to really get into combat early, it shouldn't be hard to get two favours to get unblocked. Maybe the bigger issue is Celest being really hard on their CR1s?

In theory, according to the laws, Celest favours for pretty much the same things every other org does. In practice, being noticed is the problem. 

Celest isn't exactly quiet - there are quite a few people logged in, most of the time when I do. It's just, most of the time none of them say anything. And really, this isn't about the city rank or the city favours specifically, I don't care that much. It's being able to participate in things and feeling included in the org. 

For your last point, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say here. I've played in Magnagora under the same set of laws, and didn't have nearly the same degree of frustration. For one, they talked more, and also, it seemed much easier to be rewarded for doing ANYTHING. I don't remember how long I spent as CR1, but the fact that I don't suggests it wasn't that long.

Aeryon

Sapphira said:

Is power the only way to earn favours in Celest? I like when older players favour because they're seeing a new person putting in effort and trying, not necessarily because the person ticked off x boxes and brought in the right numbers of whatevers. They get favoured up AND get to feel like they are being noticed and appreciated. Win win!

If Celest is very quiet that makes it a lot harder to be noticed. I think it's easy to forget that doing even org power quests can be time consuming and require a lot of effort for newbies who don't know their way around well, may not have systems, etc. Not to mention not having a lot of play time is a factor for some people! Recognising people are engaged and trying is a good thing. 

That being said, I feel if you're a person who knows what they're doing enough to really get into combat early, it shouldn't be hard to get two favours to get unblocked. Maybe the bigger issue is Celest being really hard on their CR1s?

Not everyone wants to get into combat. I've spent most of a very long time playing IRE and not being involved in combat. I play for the people. But even with timequakes making it somewhat less daunting, it still took me weeks to manage to catch one in the time I had available, and then days to actually get the rank for it, and the redirecting over being unblocked.

Jaelise

Aeryon said:

Sapphira said:

Is power the only way to earn favours in Celest? I like when older players favour because they're seeing a new person putting in effort and trying, not necessarily because the person ticked off x boxes and brought in the right numbers of whatevers. They get favoured up AND get to feel like they are being noticed and appreciated. Win win!

If Celest is very quiet that makes it a lot harder to be noticed. I think it's easy to forget that doing even org power quests can be time consuming and require a lot of effort for newbies who don't know their way around well, may not have systems, etc. Not to mention not having a lot of play time is a factor for some people! Recognising people are engaged and trying is a good thing. 

That being said, I feel if you're a person who knows what they're doing enough to really get into combat early, it shouldn't be hard to get two favours to get unblocked. Maybe the bigger issue is Celest being really hard on their CR1s?

Not everyone wants to get into combat. I've spent most of a very long time playing IRE and not being involved in combat. I play for the people. But even with timequakes making it somewhat less daunting, it still took me weeks to manage to catch one in the time I had available, and then days to actually get the rank for it, and the redirecting over being unblocked.

And I like combat. But under the current numbers issue, I've spent several timequakes going and getting killed(when I could find it without help and without being able to timewind) - just for the DCs. On the one hand, I don't think I should necessarily be cityfavoured for that. On the other, it means having to get lucky with when you play and when conflict events come up.

Jaelise

Aeryon said:

Five rounds of supplicants for one favour is still the better part of five hours.

Six rounds of supplicants means you can double up on that for the first rank, but afterwards not so much. 

Frankly expecting someone to do power quests more than once a day is unreasonable, for the tedium of it. I won't do it, as an experienced player, so why would I demand it of a newbie? I would be more willing to gather elemental essence, but it wasn't clear at all to me how much I would need to get, and it's not as anyone was pointing it out.

Jaelise

Anyway... I get the impression that this isn't really helpful and no one thinks anything needs to change. Given the nature of the complaint I doubt I'll feel comfortable playing this character again, so... *wave*

@Lorina, Kylarhin, you guys seem nice. I appreciate it.

Parhelion

You two should just move to Hallifax. We're pretty awesome.

Gabe

Hi!

I'm really sorry that this is how both of you feel. I was unaware of your situations. I am more than willing to help the both of you (Including your shop, Aeryon). Please reach out/send a tell/CT. We write most of our event stuff in the CITY LOG (Readlog Celest) - For future reference. Either way, I will help you both as much as I can. @Jaelise @Aeryon

I am working from home and juggling my children at the same time, so sometimes I can be a little slow to respond. 

Aknarin

Hi! 
Only briefly skimmed over this while at work. Wanted to quickly clarify a few points though:

CHELP POWER clarify's that anyone who is no longer a novice (graduated from the academy) can have their power block removed. They're only entitled to draw dross power as CR1. They are still however entitled to draw half of what they add into the Pool. If any aides are unsure, they can look at CHELP POWER under Power Aides.

City Favours: There is an outline on CHELP CITYFAVOURS where it gives a list of things that can earn favours. This isn't limited, and anyone can earn a favour for doing something above and beyond. You have to learn the supplicants quest (Celest's power quest) in order to graduate. Doing that a few times warrants a favour. As previous mentioned above, and written in the CHELP CITYFAVOURS "Addendum: Peasants that earn a cityfavour for any of the above, will automatically qualify for a second cityfavour."

I'm sorry if you find me unapproachable. I make a point of greeting people over the City Aethers, emoting an 'incline, bow, salute' etc. I try to be open an honest (I'm struggling a lot lately as a lot is happening with Celest's politics and a lot in RL). 

Feel free to send me an IG message or letter if you want to contact Aknarin- he normally replies within a RL day. I'm also happy for people to message me saying 'I did this and think it deserves a favour'.

Also if you have any pointers of where you think we can improve, it would be great for you to send them to Aknarin so he can bring it to the Council. Or go through your Guild Leader/Ministers. Or even poke me OOCly on here or discord and I'm happy to discuss. 

The Only Koi

With all honestly, I am not a forums person. Ever since I played lusternia, I have just made an account for the forums around last year or so, because I realised I may get some updates faster. That said, my point is that some players don't open the forums so the more effective way of communication is ingame. Now that this is being brought up here, I understand where @Jaelise is coming from. Power is an essential component of the game and if I had only heard the complaint before it reached the forums, I could have raised it to the star council to have it reviewed and it would have resolved faster. On a lighter note, I am thankful these players would voice out their concerns in whatever way, rather than keep it in and ultimately explode. These comments are helpful in making sure Celest is worth the shot at staying. Another point I agree on is the shops, considering the political set up of Celest, this is pretty difficult. But I am trying to find ways on how to alleviate that, hopefully with real world concepts, stay tuned @Aeryon !

Steingrim

@Jaelise

edit: Posting as an outsider here.

Everyone is blocked at CR1. It is the default and it is done by the system. Often the practice it to just read and understand the power rules and you can be unblocked.

Lusternia IMO suffers from not having a formal alliance system that could allow people friendly to your org to assist you when others are not about or are busy. This not only means someone to help you get equipped and answer questions, but even those who can let you know how to get to conflict and events when they happen. It also isolates players.

From time to time rules and practices do need reviewing. Favours weren't really a newbie thing for much of Lusternia. Not in the sense that newbie could not ever gain them, but that is wasn't expected and when it tended to happen was more the work of alts (lots of exceptions to this).

However, when orgs have credit sales based on being favoured by the org then of course that will add pressure to build up rank.

As an aside you don't have to 'win' conflict in most orgs to be recognized. But, because the admin decided to make timequakes something you have to find, you're not likely, nor, expected to join in on those by yourself. Because domoths take place on other spheres that you can't get to without help as a 'true' newbie you can miss out on those.

What you should do is bring this up in-game and point out the confusing scrolls as that would get you a favour or favours.

Aeryon

I really appreciate that people are answering, but I definitely feel that the point that we feel that nobody is listening to us is being overlooked here. Being that random person that complains about 'the way things are' has never served me well before, and gets you seen as that person causing trouble. 

@The Only Koi you've been great. You're literally the only person that talks to me more than three words. I definitely noticed when you weren't around.

Jaelise

Just going to touch on some of this briefly -

- @Steingrim, I'm not a newbie, I know how powerblocking works, the objection is to this specific law and how it appears to be interpreted. I know how conflict events work, I know how domoths work, and I know how things work in "most orgs". I don't have questions that I would generally need to bother people with (other than, how do I do X without artifacts) - so that's not the issue. The issue is not feeling able to connect with anyone in the org and not being noticed.

- @Aknarin it's not you, it's a general pattern among many people in Celest.

- The suggestion that I complain about this IC is not a good solution for a new person - real newbie or not - playing in your org. It comes across like whining for more rewards for doing nothing. I'm not comfortable doing that even on an OOC level - this post was hard to write, and I'm serious about not being comfortable playing this character as a result. There's no way it wouldn't affect people's perceptions in-game. I honestly don't know how to do that "the right way", it's not something I've ever really had problems with before. Normally I would simply quit playing. I'm telling you all this out of the hope that some things might change for other people.

Xenthos

It does not come across as whining for more rewards for doing nothing.  Celest has, up until the last couple of days, had a very low activity score percentage-wise.  Raising concerns about how that impacts the newbie experience and suggesting ways to improve it is a good thing- and is potentially something that other orgs can read and think about as well.

A lot of us old folk just tend to go as things are until someone provides a new perspective and then it's like, "Oh, I can see that, what can we do..."  Providing a push is a good thing, and I don't think you should need to worry about in-game repercussions.  It's not like you are attacking Celest's playerbase and trying to burn bridges, you are just trying to share your perspective.

Personally I think you should be fine, I strongly feel that Celest wants its new players to stick around and have fun (just like the rest of us do with our own newbies).  New / returning players are incredibly important to all of us, and sometimes we need to review and update procedures to remain encouraging.

Gabe

I don't know if I was online and missed it, or I was offline and didn't see it. I have never seen you put forward any suggestions, Aeryon. Were other people online and dismissed it? I dislike that you feel "Dismissed as a trouble maker", and I'm curious as to who has made you feel like this. Are you able to give some examples? I'm not asking you to name people, just an example. I, personally, would like to get to the bottom of any bad atmosphere that you have felt. 

Aknarin has indeed been extremely busy IRL, which is why I'm trying to alleviate any IG stress. However, he has this minute made a post to the Council regarding Power Laws, so they can try and amend those and make life easier for Novices. I am also in the midst of writing up a help file/scroll that will hopefully be simple to follow and implement. 
I'll say this again - Please reach out, ask over CT/CGT/GT, people at the Pool, over alliance. You definitely won't be overlooked. You can even send messages, send a letter etc. We are making changes, so thank you for bringing it to our attention. I will say we are only human and none of us are perfect, so if we slip up somewhere - Tell us as you have done here.