Should we delete Pits

Orael

We've seen 'delete pits' over the years for various reasons and it seems to be a constant complaint. So, I'm presenting some options to you and want to find out what the playerbase at large thinks. The poll is anonymous, so feel free to vote the way you want to.

The biggest issue is that we don't have the bandwidth to do any kind of large overhaul of the tracking skillset at this time. We can do minor changes (such as buff mutt hp) but nothing big would be able to be done at this time. So would you want us to delete pits -now- with only minor changes to the skillset or leave pits in with minor changes to climb rocks and climbing.

Additionally - we would like to get input on how you would want to change Tracking with the removal of pits -eventually-.  @Ixion already started a thread together here
https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3843/tracking-overhaul-ideas-welcome

Please head over there and comment on those ideas and add new ones. 

Tsakali

I'd like to see the other traps in the skillset before more useful, personally. I'd also like to see pits be reworked, because it isn't acceptable to allow people to decapitate you while you're in one, but you can't web them to stop it. Nor do I think pits should allow breaking p5.

Aurik

If pits are deleted, the Solstice Coal Tool power at level 2 would need to be changed - what would it be changed to? Would those who have that tool be given the option to trade it for solstice coal, given that it was a significant draw for many as far as I've heard (myself included)?

Also, currently pits are one of the few effective counters to demi+ Igasho Carry - without them, it's entirely possible to walk into a room and carry out a high-value target back into your group without really being able to be stopped. There are other possible counters - Stealth Waylay, Nature Discs, Tracking LegSnare come to mind - but Waylay requires specific targeting and thus knowing who the threat is already, and the others can be escaped before targeting reprioritizes in most cases. Would there be changes to Carry planned, or would that need further data in play first?

Maligorn

The thing about Carrying people out is that it won't be as heinous without a pit waiting for the target on the other side. Removing pits works both ways in that regard. More than likely, you'll probably find people being Carried will just tumble back out in time (if they're not just rescued via Empress or mittens or something).

Orael

There wouldn't be any change to the Coal Tool power at this point probably - unless something comes up that's easy to implement.

Same with Carry - we can look at making easy changes but we're not going to spend time brainstorming on our end.

Kali

maybe the coal tool could be changed to remove commodity costs for all traps, if pits were removed?

Malayn

I want to bring up an idea I have brought before: Pits are their own full elevation.

Mechanically:
- When you fall into a pit, you are in the pit. You cannot hit or be hit by anyone outside the pit.
- You can still CLIMB UP or CLIMB ROCKS to begin leaving the pit.
- Others may ENTER or SLIDE INTO the pit if they want to engage you. That is, you may still be engaged by a group, but they have to commit to fully engaging and give up their ground elevation control.
- Increase time to escape pit on climb rocks, leave climb up as is but be interrupted if you have any condition that would cause it to fail on climb out end.
- Trackers would get a new skill, PitFighter. PitFighter speeds up time to enter and exit pits as well as gives buffs to attacking those trying to climb out of the pit. 
- Possible, but questionable, is an ability to stop people from leaving the pit for warriors or normal people on a delay. DRAG <target> DOWN. This would delay attempts to climb out and cancel a climb if very recently started.
- So sitting in a pit, a group could still group stomp you.... but they are not on the ground level and therefore have given up quite a bit. (They all have to climb out now).

This would give pits their own area without completely removing them. 

I can see why people want to remove pits, they are just a way to stop tumble and remove offense. You cannot have a fight if only one party can attack, this is why aeon was so hated previously (and is slightly more accepted now).  I do not mind dying, but dying with no ability to fight back leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I did not vote for either option, because I do not want to look at a full overhaul when we have bigger concerns potentially, and the other option was delete.

Steingrim

Why not add that they'd be a full refund on class lessons for those with tracking and see if the alters the results?

Keegan

Delete pits.

Orael

Having had a few days to think about this, I don't think deleting pits is the way to go at this point in time. I reacted too quickly to yet another complaint about pits and how unengaging and unfun of a mechanic they still are at this point. We as admin, have a difficult job between listening to players (and ensuring you feel listened to) and doing what we think is best for the game. I've found, in my 3 years or so, that really, the way to make good, lasting change outside of an entire re-work,  is incremental. Since an entire re-work is off the table. I've gone ahead and made some incremental changes to pits and Tracking in general. 

• Climbing out of a pit will always succeed now and will not be stopped
• Using CLIMB ROCKS will climb out in half the time as a normal climb.
• I've buffed hunting companions HP up
• I've increased the chance of clamping an arm from 20% to 33%.
• Dart, Stink, Deadfall and Snare traps will no longer be used up after a single-use but will be able to be re-concealed. 
• They will decay the same as pits. 
• They will have a 10s cd before they will fire again after the become 'FIRED' (this is after all the darts hit on dart traps, rest are single use )

It was a much more difficult task to make spring-traps function the same way, so those have been left as is for the time being. You will have to re-envenom dart traps upon concealing.

Again, I realize that the voting was overwhelmingly in favor of deleting traps, but I do think the best option here is to go with some incremental changes and it's something we can re-visit down the line.  Please do continue to comment on the tracking thread.

Maligorn

If the decision is final, I'd like to add another caveat to your list there. Timed instas shouldn't be able to be started on people in pits. That will go a long way in soothing the angst surrounding pits and is an incremental change.

Pysynne

If you are not going to delete pits then I offer a suggestion of adding an Environment skill to disarm traps. You made it so everyone has the ability to remove melds, apply that same logic to Pits, can make it a double balance action or power move, but if Pits can be removed by more than just Trackers it lessens the requirement for someone to have to be a tracker when they don't really want to be one.

Shango

Aaand we just had someone quit the game. Over pits being too damned strong with the decap, stun spam, Carry bypassing rooting, etc. So, there's the result of this decision. Ah well.

Ilthilior

There is literally no counter to a Tracker other than another Tracker. Meld? OK, I kind of get that. You have to take specific 'magicky training' to learn how to meld, so I kind of understand. The problem is... we have the ability to remove melds now, but pits have no counter. If you have a Tracker and your opponents don't, they can't stop you from using carry and reconcealing, and then you just use decapitate because that's the 'current play'.

This sort of thing shouldn't exist in the game, and I'm saying that as a person who has played Tracker for years in order to counter the likes of other Trackers. I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fair when I'm the one person who gets to reset traps (and kill enemies) and I don't think it's fair when I'm not a Tracker and I have no way of removing them.

Note: I'm talking about pits specifically.