Shroud and Pets

Veyrzhul

It's a common thing by now: Custom pets with reactions that let the owner and/or the whole room know who enters and leaves and where to/from. Pet reactions are supposed to be more on the roleplay than the combat side, but this is certainly something that has combat relevance; it negates a major aspect of being shrouded (unnoticed entry and departure). I'd personally vote to remove those reactions from pets altogether, what do others think?

Arimisia

I think people who get those paid for them and you cannot just remove them.

Xenthos

Shroud does more than just hide entry / exit, so I don't really have a problem with it.

Especially since there are also skills that void shroud in its entirety.

Ragniliff

My only beef is that recently, the pets that have been getting this reaction trigger -every damn time-.

When the option was first released, it was forced to have a cool-down, which negated the effect some what and reduced the spam.

My pet still behaves this way. Unfair! Either nerf all the pets to be like mine, or fix mine so it is just as annoying/obnoxious.

Veyrzhul

Arimisia said:

I think people who get those paid for them and you cannot just remove them.

You could just have people submit another reaction to take the place of the entry/exit one. They only cost 25 credits each, too, iirc, so they're really cheap.

Xenthos said:

Shroud does more than just hide entry / exit, so I don't really have a problem with it.

Especially since there are also skills that void shroud in its entirety.

Skills that negate shroud completely are not exactly common. I've switched guilds galore and I think I only ever had access to one (shadowlight).

Eritheyl

I'm more for changing the reactions to not fire on a shrouded person, rather than removing them entirely.

If this can't be done, then...leave it the way it is, really. I have no strong feelings either way, but don't want to see people being forced to change their pets over it.

Lavinya

I'm going to make a pet that screams hysterically when Veyrzhul enters the room, to match my own panic and mashing of the run away button.

Tacita

The only thing about it that annoys me is being spammed by other peoples' pets. I deliberately had mine set to send me a tell when someone enters rather than do a room-wide reaction, so that I wouldn't be obnoxiously spamming others. I guess that also means it only gives me the combat advantage rather than everyone there, which might alleviate some concerns?

Cyndarin

I would agree. I think custom pet enter/exit reactions have become too involved in combat. I don't think that was the intent, and not sure why it's been allowed to get so out of control. 

Sidd

I don't think it's a big deal, at all. There are far more important things to be complaining about and working toward remove than custom pets reacting when people enter/exit

Veyrzhul

Well sure, it's not the end of the world either way, but it's what I personally consider a 'problem' of sorts.
On a side note, I appreciated people posting the War Seal logs, and I couldn't help but notice in yours that you have a highlight for when your target leaves the room. You even made a highlight that triggers off of Shuyin's (?) pet. Highlight means it can't be all that unimportant, if you ask me.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing, since Tacita mentioned that her pet sends her tells about enemies entering. I've heard of something like that from someone else before, and they said it even works when the pet is not in the same room they are in. Basically a guard (until it resets to the stables), and while I don't know details about the range of that, it's still not okay (if true).

Sidd

I asked for tells similar to what Tacita said, and was told 'no' so I'm not sure what the deal is there.

and yes I highlight exits and entries of my target as well as flying, climbing into trees or pretty much anything that causes the person to leave. Me saying 'it's not a big deal' isn't the same as me saying it's unimportant, and having those highlights doesn't validate your position anymore than it invalidates mine. I don't think it's a big deal, changing it won't make a difference. My beast echos only tell me when an order enemy enters/exits so it is somewhat RP based.

Veyrzhul

Sidd said:

My beast echos only tell me when an order enemy enters/exits so it is somewhat RP based.

It's actually better than basing it off of the regular enemy list since it cannot be manipulated by anyone outside of your order (unless they get themselves onto the list of order enemies by killing realm mobs). And let's face it, in fights that matter, almost any target will be an order enemy, simply because people get enemied specifically for those fights (domoths, wildnodes, special events).

Rivius

I have a pet that does this and I will admit I also did it purely to see shrouded people enter/leave. I can understand the point made about this affecting combat when it arguably shouldn't, and if people feel it really is enough of a problem to get it removed, I won't have any issue so long as I am allowed to change the reactions in question.

That said, I personally don't think it ends up being any real issue in combat. In most real fights you very rarely need to stealth past your opponents with shroud and people who are alert enough will catch you fairly quickly anyhow.

However, the one where the pet actually sends tells is actually better in some ways. You could walk your pet over to some room and it would let you know the second someone sneaks in without you having to be there with it. The range is same-plane only, but it's still a pretty strong effect. Like a limited Ancestral Watch. Either way, I'm not overly worried about it anyhow.

Karlach

It honestly seems less of an issue for combat, more an issue when people want to use shroud/highmagic to jump others without an entry message giving off an alert.

Sidd

Veyrzhul said:

Sidd said:

My beast echos only tell me when an order enemy enters/exits so it is somewhat RP based.

It's actually better than basing it off of the regular enemy list since it cannot be manipulated by anyone outside of your order (unless they get themselves onto the list of order enemies by killing realm mobs). And let's face it, in fights that matter, almost any target will be an order enemy, simply because people get enemied specifically for those fights (domoths, wildnodes, special events).

I don't know, I didn't enemy anyone for this last wildnodes despite using wrath, I didn't enemy anyone just for the War Seal either, but yes, I did enemy people for Chaos strictly so shrine effects would hit them, not for OP pet sensing powers. I think this argument falls a little flat. Did Xenthos enemy you to Shikari just for wildnodes? <- asked him, He did and he unenemied after. So there you go there

I think you're digging for justification on something that in the big picture, isn't really worth bothering over. It won't make a difference if you remove it or if you leave it. 

Is your reasoning really because you feel it tips the balance in group fights or because you don't like being seen trying to sneak up to someone to gank? 

Xenthos

Actually, yes, I did; I enemied 3 people temporarily (Veyrzhul, Xena, Vivet) and removed all three after.

Neos

Xenthos said:

Actually, yes, I did; I enemied 3 people temporarily (Veyrzhul, Xena, Vivet) and removed all three after.

I see how it is Xenthos. This is why we can't be friends.

Xenthos

You just idled on Seren's sphere, you didn't come to play with us.  That I saw, at least!

Cyndarin

Well speaking as someone who does not have a gem and is given away by my not hidden worg, I will say my opinion has nothing to do with my ability to jump people. 

To me it just seems like an unintended mechanic to circumvent shroud. It's a loophole. There's a reason shroud hides enter and exit, and pets aren't supposed to be a counter to that.

I don't think it's a huge deal, but being able to see people walk in and out is a pretty nice perk.

Veyrzhul

It's more relevant in group fights generally. In trench wars, it makes a big difference if everyone instantly sees someone who gets, say, beckoned in, and it also makes a difference for when people leave. Sure, many people have a scent-tracker these days, but seeing which way your target leaves right away can sometimes save you a little time chasing people down or with ranged killing, even more so in areas where scent isn't as much of a help due to multiple rooms with the same name.

Sidd

Yeah, who doesn't have a pignose to chase people down or follow them around.

Most people with LoS attacks just generally shoot in every direction at once (at least I did when I had cudgel), so that doesn't really matter either. 

Does it help? Yes it does. Does it tip things in favor of one side or another? No, it doesn't. It's a minor bonus for having a pet, that's all, no big deal.

Tandrin

I know when I had some of my reactions done that they specifically told me they would only code the beast to react when I was in the same room as the beast rather than being able to use it as a guard.

Veyrzhul

Not that it is super relevant for this thread, but when I submitted my reactions a few years back when I got my pet, all of my wishes were rejected. I didn't have the entry message one, but a few others involving tells or movement of the pet (random movement by one room when it gets attacked, or just back to the stables), which were deemed too combat-related.

Xenthos

I wanted mine to send me a tell when it was nearly dead.

Alas.

Shuyin

TBH, I'd care more if everyone and their mother didn't own a form of shroud (At Capable Highmagic, even).

This would actually be a problem if the only way to get shroud was via the artifact and/or Stealth skill ONLY. Then I can see how a 25 cr investment trumps a 500 or 300 one.

But it's not. Soooooo it's not a problem.

In fact, Llandros's Report 955 was a report I agreed with in theory, not so much implementation. So if anything, I would say that shroud is too prevalent a mechanic.

Tacita

Sidd said:

I asked for tells similar to what Tacita said, and was told 'no' so I'm not sure what the deal is there.

Weird! I have one for when -anyone- enters (I haven't yet gotten round to acquiring the corresponding leaving one, so it's a bit confusing atm). The only caveat is that this reaction doesn't work if I'm not in the room with her - so I cannot use her as a spy like Rivius mentions.

I actually hate shrouding/hiding abilities and don't use any of them - mostly because I would like new players to come into the game and not be standing at their nexus going 'oh, no one is here ' when actually there are a dozen people around them, all shrouded. I've been trying to remember to trigger my gem when I'm not hunting or doing combatty things too, for the same reason. It'd be fine like Shuyin says if only some skills had it, but it's so common.

Neos

Xenthos said:

You just idled on Seren's sphere, you didn't come to play with us.  That I saw, at least!

Lies, I got set on fire by those damn scouts! Nerf.