The state of Aeonics

Feoragan

I'm not going to mince my words here, Aeonics is an absurdly strong skill and definitely needs some serious evaluation. The reports system isn't expansive enough to deal with it, and hence, this forum post has been born. 

Aeonics takes a strong affliction and not only improves on it massively, but denies anyone else the use of it on the caster. It makes an already strong aff 10* worse. There is so much internal synergy on focusing spiritual affs in Hallifax anyway, and these are relatively strong already.

Issues with Mindclock
Has no duration.
Passively upkeeps.
This pretty much denies anyone else use of Aeon against you, not that anyone else's Aeon is going to be as strong anyway.

Issues with Aeon
It overwrites commands, which sucks so much and doesn't work with how combat works currently, needing you to cure many different things constantly.
Autocuring will focus Aeon, meaning your steam balance is disrupted for longer against an enemy that revels in steam affs. 
Timewarp, which is stacks quickly and passively, amplifies this. The speed at which you could stack timewarp is pure madness. 
This can be afflicted passively through Aeonics AND Harmonics also. This is going to be constantly up.

These issues are pretty unique to Aeon as an affliction. Removing the overwriting would go a great way to making this more fair. 

Insight
Timewarp is already incredibly fast stacking, and Institute passively aff so many spiritual affs.
Why does all this stuff last two minutes? 

Alacrity 
I'm not sure how this impacts non-institute Aeonics users, but I'm guessing it's not pretty or fun to fight against.

TimeEchoes
WHY does this last for 2 minutes? Why does it afflict TWO affs? 

TimeEchoes perhaps needs to cure if you leave the room, or heck, the area, because you can be in another plane and still be getting hit with TimeEchoes from two minutes ago.

Oracle
Amplifies all the issues with TimeEchoes, also, WHY again, does it last so LONG?

FutureGlimpse
Ignores an aff every 10 seconds with no duration.
No power cost.
No duration.

This would be far more palatable if it wasn't for the fact that rituals users will have Rubeus. Institute can also choose to have Emerald passively curing their affs. If they're healers, they will never again know the touch of an affliction.

ChronicLoop
Again, two minutes, why.

Switchfate 
No power cost, though thankfully it does have a duration. 
Why is this Area-wide.

Make this roomwide and it's not as disgusting.

Aeonfield 
I don't actually need to explain why this skill is an absolute joke, but here we go.
This is 8 ticks of passive aeon+timewarp on all your enemies in a room for 5 power and one balance. The ego/mana cost is really insignificant here.

Blink
It feels like, on a lot of these skills, there are just *minor* adjustments and tweaks to numbers that end up making this skill just a bit more compared to other skills. 1 power per 2 rooms would be more reasonable.

Timequake
The fact that this can affect multiple people in a room is very telling.
 
 Paradox
Spam timewarp on one person, which practically everyone in the org can do, then timequake, killing everyone in the room. That's what you want to happen here, right? That's... What you're doing for????

Keegan

I'm going to respond as if you're making these points earnestly, also just in case anyone else shares your concerns.

In preface, Aeonics is strong. I think it's a good skill set. I really like it and I think it's probably, at least for all its punches, where all guardians should be power* wise. I think there are some changes that can be made, both give and take, but it's very workable and I don't think it's overtly strong.

Aeon: 
I've died to aeon, a bunch of times, even as an Institute. I don't think aeoning an Institute is as advisable as say, shieldstunning them, but that's the case for everyone.

Mindclock: 
Quicksilver and Truetime are things you have access to too. Mindclock is, of course, slightly better, but it's hardly aeon immunity. Old Mindclock was significantly stronger.

Insight:
Expensive and mandatory for pretty much all solo building. Very expensive.

Alacrity:
I use this exceptionally rarely. In the few niche cases I would have prepared it in advance, I don't have the power to expend on it.

TimeEchoes:
It's good, but you're not getting timequake without it and Oracle in most cases. I don't think anyone is adverse to changing it up (and, relatedly, GreyWhispers), but if TimeEchoes loses punch it's likely going to be gained elsewhere by Institute to compensate. 

Futureglimpse: 
Significantly weaker than old Foresight, somewhat comparable to old FutureGlimpse. I think it's okay, great in 1v1, less useful than you'd imagine in groups (but still useful, like most defences are!)

ChronicLoop:
If the two minute duration concerns you, you probably haven't read the skill properly. 

SwitchFate: 
The few times I use it (I should use it more), it usually feels lacklustre. You generally only have the opportunity to put it up once you start getting focused and nine times of ten you should be tumbling on that balance instead. It's good, but not that great to be complained about, in my opinion.

Aeonfield:
Grass is greener. It turns you into toad bait and you actually can have major bleeding problems from it even post vital overhaul.

Blink:
This is fine. You lose all kill potential by using it.

Timequake:
I love that it has a roomwide potential. I absolutely adore that. I've also never in my life seen it happen.

Paradox:
If you want to come up with a more front-loaded ten power trans ability that will knock my enemy's socks off, please do!


Edit: *By Power I mean raw strength. I think Institute is a touch too power heavy, I'd like to honestly reduce 1p off a few abilities but it's not class breaking enough that I'd make a fuss over it.

Xenthos

The thing I dislike about Institute is how RNG timewarp is.  You can go from being nowhere near a danger zone to over the line with the right set of ticks firing (and with Oracle up, of course).  There is not really a build, or an actual burst to look for (because Oracle lasts so long), it all just comes down to getting a good set of RNG.  During testing it was set up so you were pretty good at getting this RNG application within 30-40s with just a single Institute, so having other classes (bards, monks) that also apply it makes it feel very egregious.

It's a case where it was balanced around the solo instead of the group, where most other things have been balanced the other way over the years (balance around group and then look at solo ability).

Keegan

30-40 seconds seems canonically correct for burst kill windows, mind. You're also barely touching enough power to execute the instakill.
(Also, those tests were conducted primarily with the target being non-aggressive and just curing. The majority of them, in fact.)

I'd not complain about more consistent applications and cures of timewarp, but it feels pretty okay for group settings in my opinion.

Feoragan

To be productive, Solutions:

Mindclock - This bypasses one of the issues with Aeon in that it works without needing to enter a command, making this a defence that allows you to manually up speed every 10 seconds (As Insomnia or Truehearing) would make this far more equitable. This could also be solved by removing the overwriting on Aeon commands, which is a bigger issue.

Aeon - Make Aeon automatically the first steam aff cured when you smoke a pipe and change SSC to reflect this, no longer making you focus. Remove overwriting commands.

TimeEchoes - Increase the power cost to represent how strong this skill is, 2 minutes of affing 2 spiritual affs on an enemy, incurable, infinite range once initially cast. Alternatively, reduce the affing to 1 aff per tick OR make the aff fade once you leave the room/area. OR make this work like Hexes Jinx in that it can only be cured if there are no other spiritual affs on you.

Oracle  - Just makes TimeEchoes twice as bad, which would be solved if the affs on TimeEchoes were lowered or one of the other solutions were implemented.

ChronicLoop - This lasting two minutes just feels like a bad punchline. It, again, makes TimeEchoes that little less more manageable. 

Switchfate - There's no reason at all for this to be area based. Change it to room based.

Aeonfield - Power cost up or make it surround an enemy with an Aeon Field instead. Absolutely nuts skill.

Blink - Currently discussing this as it seems pretty wonky and stronger than comparable skills.

Timequake - If this isn't insanely strong, then give Paradigmatics the room-wide instakill, and the skills that Aeonics has that allow for it to be pulled off.

Paradox - This skill is just wrong. It's disgusting. Please. Change it or remove it or something. 

Aramel

The thing about Institute is that you can't use all of the powers in your arsenal if you still want to secure the kill. Timequake is 8p, so if you use Insight, Chronicloop, Timeechoes and Oracle then you're not going to be killing anyone anytime soon. The calculus changes with more aeonics users, but I think it doesn't approximate real combat conditions to be talking about stacking all of them at once. I can spend 5p or more on someone and then they just step out of the room while I'm waiting for power to timequake them.

Feoragan

Aramel said:

The thing about Institute is that you can't use all of the powers in your arsenal if you still want to secure the kill. Timequake is 8p, so if you use Insight, Chronicloop, Timeechoes and Oracle then you're not going to be killing anyone anytime soon. The calculus changes with more aeonics users, but I think it doesn't approximate real combat conditions to be talking about stacking all of them at once. I can spend 5p or more on someone and then they just step out of the room while I'm waiting for power to timequake them.

This is true of any class, though. Most classes use more than 10p to kill someone. Also, TimeEchoes lasts two minutes and doesn't and can't be cured even if you leave the room, unlike Aurics. The exact same goes for ChronicLoop. It's not the same as playing a Bard where all your progress gets reset if they leave.

Maligorn

Xenthos said:

The thing I dislike about Institute is how RNG timewarp is.  You can go from being nowhere near a danger zone to over the line with the right set of ticks firing (and with Oracle up, of course).  There is not really a build, or an actual burst to look for (because Oracle lasts so long), it all just comes down to getting a good set of RNG.  During testing it was set up so you were pretty good at getting this RNG application within 30-40s with just a single Institute, so having other classes (bards, monks) that also apply it makes it feel very egregious.

It's a case where it was balanced around the solo instead of the group, where most other things have been balanced the other way over the years (balance around group and then look at solo ability).

For whatever it's worth, I saw a relatively fresh log of someone fighting an Illuminatus (maybe like 2 months old now?) where the same exact thing happened with tempinsanity. Went from like 0 to major in the span of a few seconds, seemingly for no reason at all. It was -basically- 1v1 too.

Because Institute and Illuminati are mirror classes, this seems to be appropriate.

EDIT: And yes, the person did end up dying to Illuminate.

Xenthos

Maligorn said:

Xenthos said:

The thing I dislike about Institute is how RNG timewarp is.  You can go from being nowhere near a danger zone to over the line with the right set of ticks firing (and with Oracle up, of course).  There is not really a build, or an actual burst to look for (because Oracle lasts so long), it all just comes down to getting a good set of RNG.  During testing it was set up so you were pretty good at getting this RNG application within 30-40s with just a single Institute, so having other classes (bards, monks) that also apply it makes it feel very egregious.

It's a case where it was balanced around the solo instead of the group, where most other things have been balanced the other way over the years (balance around group and then look at solo ability).

For whatever it's worth, I saw a relatively fresh log of someone fighting an Illuminatus (maybe like 2 months old now?) where the same exact thing happened with tempinsanity. Went from like 0 to major in the span of a few seconds, seemingly for no reason at all. It was -basically- 1v1 too.

Because Institute and Illuminati are mirror classes, this seems to be appropriate.

EDIT: And yes, the person did end up dying to Illuminate.

The fact that it can happen doesn't seem to make it appropriate, to me... just indicates that another class may have the same problem too.

Is that the actual word choice you were going for, or did you mean something like "equivalent"?

Keegan

Feoragan said:

To be productive, Solutions:

Mindclock - This bypasses one of the issues with Aeon in that it works without needing to enter a command, making this a defence that allows you to manually up speed every 10 seconds (As Insomnia or Truehearing) would make this far more equitable. This could also be solved by removing the overwriting on Aeon commands, which is a bigger issue.

Aeon - Make Aeon automatically the first steam aff cured when you smoke a pipe and change SSC to reflect this, no longer making you focus. Remove overwriting commands.

TimeEchoes - Increase the power cost to represent how strong this skill is, 2 minutes of affing 2 spiritual affs on an enemy, incurable, infinite range once initially cast. Alternatively, reduce the affing to 1 aff per tick OR make the aff fade once you leave the room/area. OR make this work like Hexes Jinx in that it can only be cured if there are no other spiritual affs on you.

Oracle  - Just makes TimeEchoes twice as bad, which would be solved if the affs on TimeEchoes were lowered or one of the other solutions were implemented.

ChronicLoop - This lasting two minutes just feels like a bad punchline. It, again, makes TimeEchoes that little less more manageable. 

Switchfate - There's no reason at all for this to be area based. Change it to room based.

Aeonfield - Power cost up or make it surround an enemy with an Aeon Field instead. Absolutely nuts skill.

Blink - Currently discussing this as it seems pretty wonky and stronger than comparable skills.

Timequake - If this isn't insanely strong, then give Paradigmatics the room-wide instakill, and the skills that Aeonics has that allow for it to be pulled off.

Paradox - This skill is just wrong. It's disgusting. Please. Change it or remove it or something. 

Bold of you to create solutions to things that aren't even problems then label it productive.

Feoragan

Notable difference between Institute and Illuminati, Institute have Aeon and passive timewarp flowing like diarrhoea and Illuminati need to Truename before they can Illuminate. 

Orael

Feoragan said:

Aeon - Make Aeon automatically the first steam aff cured when you smoke a pipe and change SSC to reflect this, no longer making you focus. Remove overwriting commands.

This should already be the case - smoking steam prioritizes aeon unless you focus something else. If that's now how it's working, you should bug it.

Maligorn

Xenthos said:

Maligorn said:

Xenthos said:

The thing I dislike about Institute is how RNG timewarp is.  You can go from being nowhere near a danger zone to over the line with the right set of ticks firing (and with Oracle up, of course).  There is not really a build, or an actual burst to look for (because Oracle lasts so long), it all just comes down to getting a good set of RNG.  During testing it was set up so you were pretty good at getting this RNG application within 30-40s with just a single Institute, so having other classes (bards, monks) that also apply it makes it feel very egregious.

It's a case where it was balanced around the solo instead of the group, where most other things have been balanced the other way over the years (balance around group and then look at solo ability).

For whatever it's worth, I saw a relatively fresh log of someone fighting an Illuminatus (maybe like 2 months old now?) where the same exact thing happened with tempinsanity. Went from like 0 to major in the span of a few seconds, seemingly for no reason at all. It was -basically- 1v1 too.

Because Institute and Illuminati are mirror classes, this seems to be appropriate.

EDIT: And yes, the person did end up dying to Illuminate.

The fact that it can happen doesn't seem to make it appropriate, to me... just indicates that another class may have the same problem too.

Is that the actual word choice you were going for, or did you mean something like "equivalent"?

I'm just meaning to say that if these classes are both working this way, it is probably intentional. Whether they should change *in regards to timewarp/tempins build is another argument, but all I'm saying is if one changes, the other should too.

Parhelion

Feoragan said:

Notable difference between Institute and Illuminati, Institute have Aeon and passive timewarp flowing like diarrhoea and Illuminati need to Truename before they can Illuminate. 

Almost every skill that the Institute has to give passive timewarp, the Illuminati has a mirror skill of. Revelations, TimeEchoes are some of these.

Half of the Paradigmatics  skills will make you ignore/miss taking an action and instead take some insanity, like Eyesnare, Flux, and Badluck. One of the skills even flings everyone in the room into a random other room in the area, with a possibility of being flung to astral.

Some of the skills aren't mirrored, like Homunculus (can cast two of the Paradigmatics skills on its own balance, gives the Illuminati a vitals boost+ vitae, bite causes damage+ insanity), Gnosis (randomly shrug spiritual afflictions), Fusion (chance of taking health damage to mana or ego instead), Reimagination (buff or debuffs a target's health, mana, ego, or universal buffs by 4/x).

Yes, Illuminati have to truename for Illuminate. It has no power cost that I'm aware of, requires moderate insanity,  and all it does is open up their instakill as well as giving a 1/8 universal damage buff against that one person.

So no, they aren't 100% equal. There's no real difference in their kits though, at least none that are heavily in need of buffing.

Feoragan

Choros said:

Feoragan said:

Notable difference between Institute and Illuminati, Institute have Aeon and passive timewarp flowing like diarrhoea and Illuminati need to Truename before they can Illuminate. 

Almost every skill that the Institute has to give passive timewarp, the Illuminati has a mirror skill of. Revelations, TimeEchoes are some of these.

Half of the Paradigmatics  skills will make you ignore an action and instead take some insanity, like Eyesnare, Flux, and Badluck. 

Some of the skills aren't mirrored, like Homunculus (can cast two of the Paradigmatics skills on its own balance, gives the Illuminati a vitals boost+ vitae, bite causes damage+ insanity), Gnosis (randomly shrug spiritual afflictions), Fusion (chance of taking health damage to mana or ego instead), Reimagination (buff or debuffs a target's health, mana, ego, or universal buffs by 4/x).

Yes, Illuminati have to truename for Illuminate. It has no power cost that I'm aware of, requires moderate insanity,  and all it does is open up their instakill as well as giving a 1/8 universal damage buff against that one person.

So no, they aren't 100% equal. There's no real difference in their kits though, at least none that are heavily in need of buffing.

So we're just pretending Harmonics doesn't exist, then? 

Ignoring actions is generally not really an issue.

Parhelion

Feoragan said:

So we're just pretending Harmonics doesn't exist, then? 

You're more than welcome to make a thread named "The state of Harmonics", and try to contrast it with Transmology. That's not this thread.






Ignoring actions is generally not really an issue.

Taking tempinsanity instead of sipping, trying to cure, attempting to walk out of the room, or any other action is indeed powerful. Instead of curing away tempinsanity, you get more of it. Instead of tumbling out, you're still in the room when that meteor falls on your head. Instead of curing stupidity, you take more insanity and the stupidity causes you to fall asleep, check secrets or otherwise spam other commands that might get denied and give you more insanity.

Feoragan

Choros said:

Feoragan said:

So we're just pretending Harmonics doesn't exist, then? 

You're more than welcome to make a thread named "The state of Harmonics", and try to contrast it with Transmology. That's not this thread.






Ignoring actions is generally not really an issue.

Taking tempinsanity instead of sipping, trying to cure, attempting to walk out of the room, or any other action is indeed powerful. Instead of curing away tempinsanity, you get more of it. Instead of tumbling out, you're still in the room when that meteor falls on your head. Instead of curing stupidity, you take more insanity and the stupidity causes you to fall asleep, check secrets or otherwise spam other commands that might get denied and give you more insanity.

Except it was you who mentioned Transmology, out of the blue.

Tempinsanity isn't pretty but it's not exactly what I'd call reliable. Aeon blocks SO many commands, persistently and consistently and delays everything. Either that, or just forces you to do one thing at a time, slowly, which is so punishing with the combat we have now.

Maligorn

I guess we're just gonna have to ignore that Illuminati has access to Tarot for the sake of your crusade.

Ironically you identified the main counter to both Researchers and Illuminati - you say the victim can't walk away from them like you can bards...but you very much can. With their very tight power requirements, any moderate disruption will ruin the whole kill attempt.

You might not believe it, but that really is the counter.

Feoragan

Maligorn said:

I guess we're just gonna have to ignore that Illuminati has access to Tarot for the sake of your crusade.

Ironically you identified the main counter to both Researchers and Illuminati - you say the victim can't walk away from them like you can bards...but you very much can. With their very tight power requirements, any moderate disruption will ruin the whole kill attempt.

You might not believe it, but that really is the counter.

...? And?

The difference between Bards and Researchers is that when you leave a Bard room, you cure all your affs instantly, ignoring a LOT of other stuff.  When you leave a Researcher room, you're still being hit by affs, constantly, for less power.

Researchers can very much keep you in a room or chase you down if they know how.

Maligorn

Bards who are competent can also chase people down, and are inarguably better at locking people in place. Yes, at the expense of power, but Researchers run into the same problem using Blink.

Honestly in any 1v1 situation you're very unlikely to catch and hold someone long enough to kill them. That's just the way the game is. If you have a clue about running, anyway. Only monks basically stand a chance at killing a running opponent.

Maligorn

What I'm trying to say is that your opinion regarding chasing and lockdown is completely moot in regards to Institute. Bards, monks, warriors, and even Illuminati are better at chasing them down.

The built in flaw of all guardians and wiccans is to run after they've spent all their power and before you get bursted. If you do that, you'll realize that Resesrcher is no different

Feoragan

Okay but this is ignoring the point that they're still ahead if you leave the room.

How exactly are Illuminati better at chasing people, remind me?

Parhelion

I mentioned Homunculus because while it's a Transmology skill, it augments Paradigmatics by being able to use two of the skills. This is like if Institute members had a gem able to cast TimeEchoes (?) on its own balance, and I brought it up for transparency.

There's no mirror for the second skill it can use, because that skill in Aeonics at 50% Gifted is Ageing. Badluck is a skill costing 3 power and hitting someone with an incurable affliction whereas any action they take has a chance of not happening, and they instead take some tempinsanity.

As an aside, Snafu causes Badluck for all enemies in the room at 1.5x the power. Its  mirror skill in Aeonics at 50% Mythical is Foresight, 1 power to occasionally dodge attacks? Someone can probably clue me in.

Xenthos

That would be a little easier if the Institute "burst" skills did not last so long.  Most other bursts have a pretty short window that the person can highlight to avoid-- Institute's just keeps going, more than long enough for power to refresh so it can all just be recast.  It's kinda hard to call that burst, imo.

Note: I do not know how the Illuminati side of that works re: duration.  If it is similar then I absolutely think that it should be viewed in the same light.

Edit: This post was in reply to Maligorn.

Maligorn

Sludgeworm, those tentacles on their chest, ectoplasm from their nose, hekoskeri making tumbles a huge bal loss, etc. There's something in Paradigmatics that, if set in the room, has a chance to deny movement commands and hit you with some tempinsanity as salt in the wound. Eyesnare can also ear an escape attempt.

Parhelion

Feoragan said:

Okay but this is ignoring the point that they're still ahead if you leave the room.

How exactly are Illuminati better at chasing people, remind me?

Transmology gives flight, alacrity, scent, leap, and a lot of other skills.  It has one mob that passively transfixes, one mob that gives..you know, I'm not even sure how sludge worm works. Slow leaving the room?


Paradigmatics has skills that keep you from leaving the room from failing actions including  one skill that (I've never seen it used) keeps lusted enemies from leaving your presence like P5 but roomwide. Enthrall?


Institute has Blink.

Dys

Choros said:

IBadluck is a skill costing 3 power and hitting someone with an incurable affliction whereas any action they take has a chance of not happening, and they instead take some tempinsanity.

Badluck doesn't do that any more. It used to be awesome. Now it's like the institute skill that increases time warp taken for each spiritual aff they have, but for mentals. Insight?

Snafu is the same but roomwide. No one uses it because it's generally better to focus on a target but could be useful if you had enough Gaudis to try and illuminate lots of people in the same room.

Dys

Enthrall is a ~20% chance to lose balance for 1s if you try to leave the room and are lusted to the illuminatus. Tumble bypasses it, flux, etc.

Usually it's not worth the balance to cast. Maybe if you're chasing?

Dys

Sludgeworm hits a target with mucus every 12s. That gives a ~33% chance to slip if you try to walk or leap out. Cured with cleanse.

Feoragan

Choros said:

I mentioned Homunculus because while it's a Transmology skill, it augments Paradigmatics by being able to use two of the skills. This is like if Institute members had a gem able to cast TimeEchoes (?) on its own balance, and I brought it up for transparency.

There's no mirror for the second skill it can use, because that skill in Aeonics at 50% Gifted is Ageing. Badluck is a skill costing 3 power and hitting someone with an incurable affliction whereas any action they take has a chance of not happening, and they instead take some tempinsanity.

As an aside, Snafu causes Badluck for all enemies in the room at 1.5x the power. Its  mirror skill in Aeonics at 50% Mythical is Foresight, 1 power to occasionally dodge attacks? Someone can probably clue me in.

If we're going to talk about Harmonics Vs Transmology we really do need another thread and a closer look at both. They're both a bit too complicated to just throw into a discussion without more context.

I'm just going to point out that Foresight was literally removed for being problematic IIRC and there isn't a 50% mythical Aeonics any longer. Dodge is apparently really powerful also, even 1%. /s 

Maligorn

Xenthos said:

That would be a little easier if the Institute "burst" skills did not last so long.  Most other bursts have a pretty short window that the person can highlight to avoid-- Institute's just keeps going, more than long enough for power to refresh so it can all just be recast.  It's kinda hard to call that burst, imo.

Note: I do not know how the Illuminati side of that works re: duration.  If it is similar then I absolutely think that it should be viewed in the same light.

Edit: This post was in reply to Maligorn.

Counterpoint: Shadowdancer shadow twists last a long time too. They were finally nerfed after so long of an SD just being able to sit on Final twist for as long as they wanted (til the next dawn, more accurately speaking), but you're in danger of dying to Unravel for a long time still, similar to Institute if you want to draw that conclusion.

Which makes sense to me, personally, as Researchers and SDs have historically worked the same way to get their kills. Shatterplex vs final twist in the past, aeonlock into dead featuring strongly now.