Order Affinity Drain

Coraline

I know there was a reason affinity essence drains were put in in the first place (I heard that it was to prevent some Orders from taking over an organization?), but as someone who has no desire to take over any organization, and also as someone who likes contributing positively instead of feeling like a drain, I wanted to ask if there was any way that the current affinity drain could be tweaked?

As someone who recently joined an Order that takes in people regardless of politics, I was excited to see how I was contributing, just to realize that the mechanics were telling me that I was a drain just for existing in the Order.

Some suggestions, off the top of my head:

1. Cause affinity drain only if more than a certain amount of people (example, 5 people) are from orgs that are not tied to the Divine. This way we can ensure that no one will try to take over any org.

2. Let the Divine choose whether they want affinity drain for having people outside of their org in their order. Alternatively, it can be decided by the admin which God should or shouldn't have affinity drain based on the Order's rp.

3. Only cause affinity drains if people are members of certain orgs which wouldn't make sense given the type of Order they are in. For example, a member of Celest in the order of Night. 

4. Have affinity drain, but reduce it significantly so that it would only make a difference if there are a lot of members not tied to the org. Or remove the halving of offering cost.

These are some of the ideas I thought of, if anyone has other ideas please comment with that! But the current situation is a bit disheartening.

Lief

I understand why affinity drain exists, and I appreciate there being a barrier in place to prevent an evil org from going full evil into a non evil org. It maybe lets us better trust that someone RPing a conversion is being genuine!

But I can totally see how it would be disheartening, especially for orders like Crumkane who don't really make much sense right now tied to any city, or like Isune who has so MUCH history with another org.

I'm not sure what the best answer is, but similar to how timequakes were discouraging to participate in when essence was lost for dying in them, even if it doesn't really matter, it kind of does. I think either easing up the affinity drain in some way, or maybe making it a general loss not tied directly to a person's name, would be really nice.

Coraline

I was also told that there is affinity drain for rogues, which wouldn't make any sense. Could that be removed too?

Misericorde

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

Parhelion

Here we go again.

Coraline

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

While I think that there should be a limit on the number of people joining outside of an org, I don't think it should be completely banned either. Characters can be complex and not one dimensional, and the cross city affiliation problems can be something that can be taken as a challenge for the character and can sometimes be interesting as well.

And, since the nebulous types of dieties exist already, I feel like it would be better to work around that. I personally don't believe each and every diety should be tied to an org, and it would only make sense for some.

Choros said:

Here we go again.

Just to clarify. Starting a discussion. I have no desire for a flame war. 

Kistan

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. 

Ah you come from one of those fancy cities with a pantheon

Xenthos

My biggest issue with Affinity is not the drain (the God controls that, the more powers / authority they give you the bigger the drain-- that is their choice).

It is the halved offerings.

If Coraline offers to Raezon as part of his order her offerings are halved, which makes keeping up with drains brutal.  If I, as an enemy of Raezon, offer to him... it is worth its full value.  This is completely nonsensical.  A drain at least can be seen as a valid mechanism (the God is attuned with this org, and it has some stress on them for people with a different attunement), but it is absurd that an enemy's offerings are worth twice as much as the offerings of a person directly in the Order.

Misericorde

Coraline said:

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

While I think that there should be a limit on the number of people joining outside of an org, I don't think it should be completely banned either. Characters can be complex and not one dimensional, and the cross city affiliation problems can be something that can be taken as a challenge for the character and can sometimes be interesting as well.

And, since the nebulous types of dieties exist already, I feel like it would be better to work around that. I personally don't believe each and every diety should be tied to an org, and it would only make sense for some.

It can be interesting, yes! But for every 1 or 2 people who do it well there's dozens that haven't and in those cases it's way more trouble than it's worth. I also don't think that saying 'well they already exist so we have to deal with it' is the way to go either for deity roles. We've lost gods before, and maybe some of those roles should be looked at again in the future as to what they're bringing to the table.

But! We don't have to agree. This is a topic we probably won't and that's ok! I think opening up orders like this isn't a good idea and wanted to express why I felt that way.

Coraline

Misericorde said:

Coraline said:

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

While I think that there should be a limit on the number of people joining outside of an org, I don't think it should be completely banned either. Characters can be complex and not one dimensional, and the cross city affiliation problems can be something that can be taken as a challenge for the character and can sometimes be interesting as well.

And, since the nebulous types of dieties exist already, I feel like it would be better to work around that. I personally don't believe each and every diety should be tied to an org, and it would only make sense for some.

It can be interesting, yes! But for every 1 or 2 people who do it well there's dozens that haven't and in those cases it's way more trouble than it's worth. I also don't think that saying 'well they already exist so we have to deal with it' is the way to go either for deity roles. We've lost gods before, and maybe some of those roles should be looked at again in the future as to what they're bringing to the table.

But! We don't have to agree. This is a topic we probably won't and that's ok! I think opening up orders like this isn't a good idea and wanted to express why I felt that way.

Yeah! I'd personally love if affinity drains and halved offerings were completely removed, but I can see why that won't be a good idea. I started this discussion so we could all share our opinions in a civil manner and then reach a middle ground.

Ayisdra

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

For years, Raezon's lore was that he accepts anyone. His helpfile even said he accepts those outside his city. His helpfile was edited by Estarra when she found out this. Her stance is that gods, regardless of their lore, shouldn't actively be cross-org and that should be more about 'you should be in my org' type outlooks on membership.

My personal issue is with both Affinity and the half offerings. Xenthos has already explained the offerings reason. but the Affinity itself doesn't really make sense. Estarra has said it is a punishment for the God, not the player. There were even talks about removing players ability to see it on LISTOFFERINGS to reinforce this fact. This doesn't make really much sense to me. A God isn't likely to care about essence in most cases. More so with bigger orders like Mysrai who did say she had so much essence she didn't even notice the drains.

Misericorde

Ayisdra said:

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

For years, Raezon's lore was that he accepts anyone. His helpfile even said he accepts those outside his city. His helpfile was edited by Estarra when she found out this. Her stance is that gods, regardless of their lore, shouldn't actively be cross-org and that should be more about 'you should be in my org' type outlooks on membership.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than once the Estarra found out how a role was written it was changed to be more in line with what she wanted out of god roles? Am I missing something?

Coraline

I also feel like it's worth mentioning that some Divine are banned in some orgs, and this is not one of those cases.

Ayisdra

Misericorde said:

Ayisdra said:

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

For years, Raezon's lore was that he accepts anyone. His helpfile even said he accepts those outside his city. His helpfile was edited by Estarra when she found out this. Her stance is that gods, regardless of their lore, shouldn't actively be cross-org and that should be more about 'you should be in my org' type outlooks on membership.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than once the Estarra found out how a role was written it was changed to be more in line with what she wanted out of god roles? Am I missing something?

No, but Raezon's help and lore was like that since his original player (or so i was told) but changing it is like saying 'this god was never like this', and implies retconning a part of the perceived lore behind Raezon (that he doesn't care where you are from and doesn't hold the same 'you should be in my org' view that Estarra now believes gods should have)

Enya

Misericorde said:

Ayisdra said:

Misericorde said:

I don't think removing affinity is a good way to go, and I don't really think players should be joining orders outside of their pantheon. Mostly, because I've been playing IRE games for 10+ years now and I know if you give players an inch a good portion of them will take a mile and spit in your face as gratitude. While I don't doubt that you have zero intention of trying to take over Raezon's order it has happened in the past in other orgs and other games.

I also get that several of the orders out there are nebulous as to why they're in certain cities. I'm more of the opinion those were bad roles to push out and they should have been more tailored to the org to bring something unique to them.

There's also the problem of cross-city affiliations. Let's say Raezon's order decides they're going to target Gaudiguch for an experiment and Things Go Bad. Now you're in the middle of a huge drama fest that's not going to end well for either side. I get the appeal of wanting to join a cross-org order, but I don't think that it ultimately ends well when it happens.

For years, Raezon's lore was that he accepts anyone. His helpfile even said he accepts those outside his city. His helpfile was edited by Estarra when she found out this. Her stance is that gods, regardless of their lore, shouldn't actively be cross-org and that should be more about 'you should be in my org' type outlooks on membership.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than once the Estarra found out how a role was written it was changed to be more in line with what she wanted out of god roles? Am I missing something?

This is an important point. If (as has been said) the point was largely to regulate the behavior of gods, then the mechanic A) doesn't accomplish that by consistently frustrating mostly players for IRL years an is unnecessary as by definition the god roles are a tightly controlled small group of people anyways.

Xenthos

It was intended to regulate player and god choices; Gods gave players some possible things to do, but players are the ones who chose to actually do them.  The negative affects both, and thus it is far less likely for a mass organized effort as we saw more than once.

The problem to me is that it fails the sanity check.  It really makes no sense that a God's enemies can offer to that God better than his/her own followers.  There are better ways of doing this which have been brought up repeatedly, but it does not really seem like changes are forthcoming, alas.

Esoneyuna

It is a rather annoying problem. Because on the one hand I want to say remove the barriers so orgs without Divine can join an order and participate in that part of gameplay since you can not offer it everywhere. On the other hand if an org's players all join orders in other orgs this will either raise tension levels in that org or further cement that org as permanent ally to another org.

I think highjacking an order is more an issue for orders with inactive divine. I am fairly sure if I were to join Czixi or Isune's order and then try to fill it with Gaudies and make it Gaudi centered the player behind them would put a stop to it.

Enya

Would there be a big difference in:

-All offerings from out of org take a -50% strength malus.

-Offerings from order members from out of org take -25% malus

-Offerings from non-order members but IN pantheon org are at 0% change from base

-Offerings from in-order, in-org members are at 25% devotion bonus

That way, you're still penalized for being out of the pantheon. As a non order member, you're encouraged to offer to in org gods to maximize the effect and your karma increase (if you care). As an order member you still eat a malus for being in the wrong org and are pushed to join the correct org for the 50%point swing. But it all makes more sense.

Xenthos

That is roughly like the idea I have brought up multiple times, yes.  I would very much like to see it be more logical / consistent.

Jolanthe

@Coraline we already touched on some of this before, but I think it's important for you to keep in mind that your chosen god was already aware of all this before inducting you in. I'd also encourage you to check the recent public posts about the offering contest for your order, and keep in mind that a god's relative essence ceiling is right around a billion or so, iirc. More than that and it's just kind of lost.

If you get told not to worry about it, then it'd be good to take that at face value.

EDIT:

Also, to help poke an even bigger hole at what's being addressed here:

Technically, Coraline could just give all her offerings to me and have me offer them for her, under the general understanding that they're actually her offerings. This sort of obvious workaround does make the whole thing seem rather silly.

Coraline

It also seemed like it was draining a flat cost instead of scaling up with order rank like I expected.

Ayisdra

Coraline said:

It also seemed like it was draining a flat cost instead of scaling up with order rank like I expected.

It scales on powers, iirc. that the more you have, the more it costs you (plus a bit more if you are an avatar)

Saran

As an alternative, more work, but local orders/chapters might also resolve the issue?

All the stuff that's currently tied to elders specifically (shrines/temples/etc) would shift to being tied to their order and that order would be connected to their org. Offerings, powers, and all that would work through that order link but there wouldn't be much visible difference.

If a elder wanted to though, they could then set up a local order connected to a different org, which would then have it's own shrines/temple/etc, ultimately everything would be separate.

The elder could establish them as venerating different aspects and be very distinct or mostly the same, maybe Crumkane just sets up a bunch of kitchens across the basin to find which nation can make the best treats. Could also have like holy wars or just Warrior circle elders who like to see their orders engaging in battle with each other, etc.

Daraius

Doesn't make sense to me why Elder Gods hitching themselves so tightly to mortal orgs would be part of the "Vision" lore-wise. 

Alexandria

Esoneyuna said:

It is a rather annoying problem. Because on the one hand I want to say remove the barriers so orgs without Divine can join an order and participate in that part of gameplay since you can not offer it everywhere. On the other hand if an org's players all join orders in other orgs this will either raise tension levels in that org or further cement that org as permanent ally to another org.

I think highjacking an order is more an issue for orders with inactive divine. I am fairly sure if I were to join Czixi or Isune's order and then try to fill it with Gaudies and make it Gaudi centered the player behind them would put a stop to it.

Tangent, but Czixi is actually very active and in control. Would never work there even if you wanted it to.

Xenthos

That's exactly what Esoneyuna said, yes.

Jolanthe

Daraius said:

Doesn't make sense to me why Elder Gods hitching themselves so tightly to mortal orgs would be part of the "Vision" lore-wise. 

I had the same feeling, reading this.

Alexandria

Xenthos said:

That's exactly what Esoneyuna said, yes.

Oh, I misread. Isune is not though.

Maligorn

I don't think hijacking is really a possible thing even with inactive orders. If the Order is truly inactive, then you won't even be able to get in. If the Order has one active person that can baptize people and stuff, then it's likely that they're at least keeping a superficial eye on things (but even then, what order newbie is going to have baptizing privileges?)

Isune may be not so active, but there are many ranking Isunite order members that would put a stop to a takeover like...really quick. It would be trivial.

What this highlights is that Affinity is antiquated and unnecessary, imo.

Esoneyuna

Maligorn said:

I don't think hijacking is really a possible thing even with inactive orders. If the Order is truly inactive, then you won't even be able to get in. If the Order has one active person that can baptize people and stuff, then it's likely that they're at least keeping a superficial eye on things (but even then, what order newbie is going to have baptizing privileges?)

Isune may be not so active, but there are many ranking Isunite order members that would put a stop to a takeover like...really quick. It would be trivial.

What this highlights is that Affinity is antiquated and unnecessary, imo.

Unless of course that one person that can baptize people decided to move orgs and take the order they hold with them. Originally of course cause without them the order would die. I mean it has happened so it can happen again.

Divine orders are just messed up cause they rely on a single admin. If that admin leaves/is busy with other things orders are pretty much down into a spiral of slowly losing all high ranking members until it is dead. If  every order had an NPC 'high priest' any other admin could possess if they wanted to provide an event or promote someone it would fix a lot of the orders die effect. The adminplayer behind the god would still have full control of the setting, just could get some easier help.

Xenthos

   o Affinity is dead. Long live Affinity.
     - Members of the same org will no longer passively generate 1000
   essence per weave.
     - Members of differing orgs will no longer drain X amount of essence
   per weave.
     - Offerings from members of differing orgs are no longer cut in half.