Melder Revamp Testing

Orael

Hi All,

    I'm getting close to wrapping up melder code, with only a few more things to implement, but we decided to get a head start on testing given we have 6 specs to work on. If you are interested in helping test things out, shoot me a message and I'll get you the test server information. 

 Any issues or bugs should be messaged to me in-game, but feel free to use this thread to discuss balance and other ideas related to how the skillsets work.


 Orael

Kalnid

Is there a more up to date version of the google doc linked before which laid out what each ability is supposed to do, or is it more or less unchanged from the old one? Alternatively, if ABs are in place, we can work off those.

Orael

The google doc is more or less up to date. I won't say it's 100%, but it's relatively close.

Orael

Something that's come to light during this initial testing is that we may have to change how the leylines are formed.

The current set up, picks path between nodes and melds the in between rooms. This is deterministic and it'll usually pick the same path each time. The issue with this is that it can set up situations where one node's connection between two other nodes could potentially be the same exact path. 

Speaking with Ianir about it, he wrote the path determination a bit differently and set up a situation where it chooses the 'best' path that would meld the most rooms. This leads to nodes and connections potentially changing when adding or removing nodes, meaning that the meld you think you have could change with each node added/removed. 

I think both these situations would be frustrating to deal with as a player, so I think the option we should go with is to go back to our initial idea and just have every possible path between the nodes meld. That'll be the simplest and least frustrating to deal with as a melder, though it may admittedly be more frustrating to fight against.

Tridemon

Orael said:

Something that's come to light during this initial testing is that we may have to change how the leylines are formed.

The current set up, picks path between nodes and melds the in between rooms. This is deterministic and it'll usually pick the same path each time. The issue with this is that it can set up situations where one node's connection between two other nodes could potentially be the same exact path. 

Speaking with Ianir about it, he wrote the path determination a bit differently and set up a situation where it chooses the 'best' path that would meld the most rooms. This leads to nodes and connections potentially changing when adding or removing nodes, meaning that the meld you think you have could change with each node added/removed. 

I think both these situations would be frustrating to deal with as a player, so I think the option we should go with is to go back to our initial idea and just have every possible path between the nodes meld. That'll be the simplest and least frustrating to deal with as a melder, though it may admittedly be more frustrating to fight against.

That might get somewhat tricky in open spaces like the inner sea or Dramube- two nodes in rooms right next to each other would have a LOT of paths.

Orael

Two nodes can't be right next to each other. They have to be spaced at least one room apart. 

The paths will just be the shortest possible path. There may be some areas that makes this tricky and interesting, but all nodes are breakable, so there should be some options there.

Orael

Update:

 At this point, everything is coded (the lines still are just filler lines) and implemented. Unless I forgot about something.

 So testing at this point it for bugs and balance things. Again, feel free to bring up balance issues and thoughts for discussion here, and message me with specific bugs.

Orael

Hi - I've had a few messages regarding balance, but I'd really like to see a conversation with thoughts.

How is the affliction build-up? Too fast or too slow?
Cure balances? Ok, not ok?
Effects?  Worthwhile

Melding and general connections?
Breaking time/elemental strength?

Other general thoughts?

For those that sent me messages, I'm not ignoring them or anything, I'm just looking for more input in general.

Eidt: The reason I'm asking is that the bugs and quirks have mostly been worked out at this point, so I'm able to really focus on the balancing of everything and adjusting numbers etc.

Dys

I do like the feel of dropping a couple of nodes and being good to go rather than having to meld every room.

I've not had time to have a proper think and test yet so have nothing robust but initial impressions are that the build is quite fast and will be moreso in groups. E.g. aero cloud coils need steam to cure, a researcher can also drop time echoes for a ton of steam affs so the only way to live is to get away from the node.

But maybe fast is ok as two monks can batter someone quick too.

Pysynne

Mages/druids being able to afflict as well as other classes (barring warriors) is not a bad thing. I will note that Hartstone are stuck on slush cure, which is a fast cure and between tics in self testing I can easily keep up with the meld procs, this obviously will be more benefit with Moondancers, but I don't know if this is the same for the other melds. Perhaps down the road Allergies might need the same treatment as Temp Ins got for the same reasons.

Orael

The afflict/cure rates for each melder aff (outside other factors) should be equal despite the balance. Allergies is a faster bal but it's only curing half as much as burns for instance.

Saran

Is druidry actually separate skills for HS and BT? (it's one of the outcomes that was promised from the beginning)

It's looking like it's still a shared skill and given the majority of the names are the same it seems like the request that the skill actually look and feel distinctly Seren isn't happening?

Orael

Saran said:

Is druidry actually separate skills for HS and BT? (it's one of the outcomes that was promised from the beginning)

It's looking like it's still a shared skill and given the majority of the names are the same it seems like the request that the skill actually look and feel distinctly Seren isn't happening?

Yes - as I've told you several times now, Yes, they will have unique lines and feel compared to BT. They may still share some of them, but for the most part, they will be unique.

Saran

Orael said:

Saran said:

Is druidry actually separate skills for HS and BT? (it's one of the outcomes that was promised from the beginning)

It's looking like it's still a shared skill and given the majority of the names are the same it seems like the request that the skill actually look and feel distinctly Seren isn't happening?

Yes - as I've told you several times now, Yes, they will have unique lines and feel compared to BT. They may still share some of them, but for the most part, they will be unique.

And I ask repeatedly because when new information or email blasts come out I look at what you've said and what information is currently available and there's a disconnect.

Looking over what I can see right now, HS seems to break down into four groups of skills

Shared abilities: Treebane, Spores, Treelife, Thorns, Storm, Regrowth, Fury.

Recycled generic aff/abilities: Allergies, IntoxicatingFlower, Sap, Pollen.

Usual melder abilities: Sapling, Treebourne, Forest, Meld, Dissolve, Totem, Missile, Cudgel.

Abilities that read, potentially, uniquely Seren: Squirrels, Pathtwist, SpiritGrasp, WildePalate, and Darkseed.

The recycled abilities are all the generic enough themes that could apply for both sides in pre-overhaul druidry because they needed to work for both forests. One comment that was made comparing these to how BT turned out was that Infestation is much more glom flavoured than making someone sneeze is seren flavoured.

If the new incarnation of druidry is actually two separate skills then there's also not really any need to have the shared abilities there, especially if they're going to have distinct lines because then there's even more space for creativity.

But at this point, it's looking more likely that HS druidry is going to be the reverse of what you're saying. Some unique abilities and, for the most part, their abilities are shared.

Dys

Aeromancy northwind is brutal. 2 power to strip levitate+fling a single target into the air every ~5.5s for about 1m 45s. Flinging does a lot of damage (~4k on Dys), concussion with stupidity etc. It works out of a meld.

If it's cast demesne-wide it ticks a bit slower (~7.5s), costs 8 power and only strips levitate OR flings if levitate is stripped, but upkeeping levitate takes about 4s equilibrium so that's going to be really disruptive.

At the moment it seems to put the effect on all enemies in the meld at the time of casting, then it keeps affecting them for the duration (~1m 45s) even if they leave the meld. Is that intended?

Orael

We can look at adjusting that a bit more. I slowed it down already, but maybe the strip/fling is too powerful together? Maybe just faster ticks is sufficient even it's one at a time?

Dys

Thanks for looking at it. Unless there's a faster way to put levitate back up I don't think it makes too much difference if strip/fling is together after the first fling because the targets will either have to choose to spend half of their balance upkeeping levitate and not building their own kills or just get thrown around. Even leaving the meld doesn't help.

I might be missing a way to deal with fling but it's a strong effect at that frequency and duration. Most of the specs equivalent effects are very strong and look hard to maintain an offence under.

Pyro's looks like ~1s blackout every 3-4s on a single target, every ~5s for the meld version. 
Geo's is ~1s balance loss every 3-4s on a single target, every ~5s for the meld version.

You could reduce levitate and waterbreathing's casting times down from 4s to make it more of a palatable choice to upkeep them, but I think it's still going to take people out of the fight.

Maybe increase the power cost for the single target version to 5 or so and slow down the meld version by a lot more and cap the durations at 1 min?


For the unleashes, cyclone etc. only cures 6 cloudcoils when it deals the damage and ends. That's the same as smoking steam once and less than I expected. I'd have thought it would drop at least a whole level (25 points).

Orael

It should clear it out, I'll get that fixed

Orael

As an update - we're going to go live with the melder revamp in the next few days, so now is the time to get your testing in and comment on any potential issues before it goes live.

Aramel

I did already send messages, but I wanted to compile my concerns here.

1. Cure balances.

After some testing it looks like Geo/BT cloudcoil equivalents are dust, Aeros are steam, Pyros are ice, and HS is slush. These aff pools are not created equal, especially given that dust and ice stacks are way more of a thing than steam/slush stacking thanks to monks in particular. For example, ninjakari can do large numbers of dust and ice afflictions thanks to monks and poisons, which helps because Geo is a dust meld. The same goes for BT and Nekotai. On the flip side, Aeros are a steam meld, but tessenchi can't stack steam afflictions without specifically bursting - in the normal scheme of kata forms, they're still stuck doing dust and ice like everyone else.

This means that Geo and BT have the potential to stack monk and melder and get kills very, very fast, in a way that other orgs simply don't have access to. This is the kind of imbalance that we're trying to move away from, and a way to fix this would either be to make it so Geo/BT melds aren't 100% pure dust affs all the time (make them like Aqua: have their cloudcoil equivalents be dust and the actual afflictions be something else, or vice versa). The elegant way would be to make it so monks all did their own org's affliction-stack, but that might be outside the purview of melder revamp.

2.  I'm not a big fan of HS/BT's Thorns effect being bleeding - I get that bleeding is Glom's "timewarp" equivalent, but that causes a lot of problems in a way that might make it easier just to give that effect some other affliction. Bleeding pressures vitals in a way that timewarp/tempins don't. If your health hits 0 from bleeding you're dead right away, but if you build to max timewarp it still requires 8p to kill you. In addition, bleeding is a lot less useful to HS than to BT - other Seren classes don't do enough bleeding to stack with to really make Seren-bleeding a threat.

In addition, bleeding is the only vitals drain that requires another vital to cure: 400 bleeding from Thorns is around 750 mana to clot for me, making the target vulnerable to mana kills even if they cure bleeding. This is not a thing that happens with timewarp/tempins/burns/chills - once you cure those, you're free. But if you clot all your bleeding, then you're still in trouble because you can be toaded - or even absolved, since manakills, unlike timewarp/tempins kills, can be taken advantage of by guardians/wiccans from different cities, making them strictly superior. Much ink (pixels?) have been spilled about Glomdoring and bleeding, and even if those issues aren't addressed right now, there's no reason to exacerbate them with the new melds.

3. Needlerain. I know that with the latest changes they only strip 1 instead of 2 non-waterwalk/waterbreathe affs, but I do think the better way to fix that would actually be to reduce the table of affs it is capable of stripping. Even at 1 aff instead of 2, upkeeping them all is going to be a lost cause - it's pretty much guaranteed that over the course of the affliction it's going to hit everything in its table, regardless of the speed with which it does so.

Pysynne

Aramel said:

2.  I'm not a big fan of HS/BT's Thorns effect being bleeding - I get that bleeding is Glom's "timewarp" equivalent, but that causes a lot of problems in a way that might make it easier just to give that effect some other affliction. Bleeding pressures vitals in a way that timewarp/tempins don't. If your health hits 0 from bleeding you're dead right away, but if you build to max timewarp it still requires 8p to kill you. In addition, bleeding is a lot less useful to HS than to BT - other Seren classes don't do enough bleeding to stack with to really make Seren-bleeding a threat.

In addition, bleeding is the only vitals drain that requires another vital to cure: 400 bleeding from Thorns is around 750 mana to clot for me, making the target vulnerable to mana kills even if they cure bleeding. This is not a thing that happens with timewarp/tempins/burns/chills - once you cure those, you're free. But if you clot all your bleeding, then you're still in trouble because you can be toaded - or even absolved, since manakills, unlike timewarp/tempins kills, can be taken advantage of by guardians/wiccans from different cities, making them strictly superior. Much ink (pixels?) have been spilled about Glomdoring and bleeding, and even if those issues aren't addressed right now, there's no reason to exacerbate them with the new melds.

While I agree on principle about bleeding, I will say that the "can still be toaded" is the whole point. All the melds build their aff + their orgs synergy aff. For Communes that Synergy is Toad. So either Thorns can do a direct mana drain on hit, scaling on allergies, or can cause bleeding scaling on allergies to get that mana drain. I do agree with the disparity in bleed mechanics from Glomdoring to Serenwilde though. Glomdoring can easily ramp up bleeding, where Serenwilde is pretty much limited to generic "everyone in every org can do this"skills for bleeding.

Edit:: Also you need massive allergies/infestation iirc for 400 bleeding. You should be less worried about the 750 mana from clotting and more worried about the instakill that is about to kill you at that point. It's not like anyone but the focused target is going to be at that point anyways.

Orael

I think each org has the potential to stack well with their melder affs, which brings more potential synergies to the orgs.

BT/Neko
Geo/Deathmarks
Aqua/Tahto
Aero/Institute
Pyro/Illuminati
HS/MD

I think you could probably argue that Aero/Institute stack better than BT/Neko as well.

One of the stated goals was to bring more synergy to all orgs, which means they're going to work better together. I understand that Glom has pretty great bleed synergy already, but I don't think it's fair to deny BT working with that synergy as well. I don't think the current levels of bleed that the meld gives vary too much from what this version will give.  I certainly don't think we're exacerbating Glom bleed-synergy issues here either.

I wouldn't mind more discussion on this though (and I've been asking for it). I did add better curing control for these new melder affs (allowing to prioritize levels of the aff rather than just the aff), which should help with SSC dealing with them. It's not a perfect solution though (and you'll still want to optimize via client-side scripting).

I will note that we've reduced the build levels significantly (by almost half) since it was testing first started (I'm not sure when people last tested things)

Aramel

My point with bleeding isn't just that it makes one vulnerable - it's that whether or not you prioritize curing it, you get screwed both ways. For example:

- if I get hit with timewarp and I don't cure it, I can get timequaked if there's an aeonics user with 8p.
- if I do cure it, nothing happens to me except I lose a cure balance (actually, I don't even lose a cure balance, since it stacks curing with other steam affs).

Whereas with bleeding,
- if I don't cure it, I bleed out (health loss to 0), no one needs to spend power on that.
- if I do cure it, I lose mana, and with enough mana loss I can get toaded for 8p if there's an SD around
- if there isn't even an SD around, I can still get instakilled by their ally with absolve, making manakills strictly better in this regard than timewarp/tempins kills (this is non-negligible with Lusternia's low population - the more classes something makes you vulnerable to, the more likely it is you'll die to it)

Ultimately I guess my issue is more with bleeding itself, as well as the ability for cross-org "alliance" manakills, than with BT's particular iteration of bleeding. I'd still like for that to be something discussed more in depth, whether or not that's during the melder revamp.

Pysynne

I have a question I just thought of.

I hold Meld and I am a Dreamweaver with Motes embedded
Feyr is a runist and bonded to the meld so will inherit it if I die.

Do my motes vanish on death and Feyr can now put in runes, do the motes just become inactive?

Orael

What I'll do is clear them if the new melder doesn't have runes or dreamweaving. 

So in your scenario, the motes would be cleared. 

Motes and runes are stored in the same place, so it wouldn't really be feasible to inactivate them.

Orael

Final Update

As far as bleeding goes, I understand what you are saying, bleeding hits you from two angles where something like timewarp or temp-insanity or even these new melder affs do not. We can potentially look into changing bleeding in the future, but I think that's outside the scope of this revamp. I don't think the bleeding being added here is anything extreme though, especially since it doesn't really ramp up until you get to that max level and it's once every 10s with plenty of opportunities to clot and sip/sparkle/scroll.

With that in mind,

 I want to have this go live tomorrow night. The main reason for that is because I'm away this weekend starting on Thursday and want to make sure I'm available Tuesday and Wednesday to fix any potential major issues that crop up once it goes live.

That said,  because I will be traveling, it's possible something happens while I'm traveling that won't be fixed right away. Ianir's said that he'll help out if he can while I'm out. I won't be entirely out of reach, but my access will be limited.

Again, Thank you to all the testers that jumped on the realm, the mortal builders that contributed to the lines for each spec and anyone else that contributed. I know this revamp has been a long time coming, I hope it's something that everyone enjoys and can get behind. 

Dys

I think Darkseed is too strong. Passive entangle ticking every 5s (single target) will just lock someone down. It's only 2 power, and lasts about 1m 15s. If they writhe (3-4s?) then they target only gets 1.5 ish seconds to act. If they tipheret/summer (2s) that's still 40% of their balances gone. With the stun on the meld or someone just shieldstunning in the gaps it'll be even more frustrating to fight against.

The geo version takes about 20-25% of balance (1s which every 3.5-4s ish) which is nasty but feels fairer. 

I'm not sure about the pyro version. Being blacked out about 20-25% of the time seems strong too but you can act and autodiagnose when you get vision back. Still probably needs watching.

Edit: the other thing about darkseed is that people will probably have to code to try and hit the windows they're not entangled.

Ooh, and melders from different orgs using these things in combination. Passive entangle and balance knock (or blackout) on a single target for over a minute for 2p per melder. Ouch.

Edit2: I like the new melds, dropping nodes is cool and the revised meld affliction rate feels better. It's really just the set of single/nodes/meld like darkseed, heatwave, chasm, needlerain that I think could be really frustrating to fight in.

Pysynne

With the slow down, (I requested, you should have seen it before the slowdown), I have zero issue tumbling, rolling, serpenting, shielding, initiating and completing a teleport, tipping hat, dispersing, timedooring... Yes, you have to use stratagem, but you should be using them anyways, that's what they are for.

I mean it's not like it is 2p pincharge spammed by 1 - 2 people for an 8s lockdown every 4- 5 seconds.

Xenthos

Given that pincharge uses beast balance, it is not possible to do it every 4-5 seconds.  Please do not make things sound more powerful to justify keeping something that sounds overtuned.

So: Pincharge is 2p per usage, with a cooldown set to beast balance.

This is 2p per cast, and keeps passively afflicting.

This means you can keep doing your offense while it goes, whereas the pincharger cannot attack while the target is pinned.  Hmmm.

The pincharger has to spend 2p to reapply each time, while this just keeps ticking.

And let us not forget that at 2p per cast you can keep it permanently applied to 3 different people.   Pincharge is just one at a time.

The more I think about it, the worse this comparison gets.

Pysynne

Given that the lockout is 8s on pincharge on the impaled person's end and beast balance is 10 seconds that means you are reapplying it within 2seconds if you know what your doing. I was being generous in the 4 - 5s time frame as that being the time for you to leave the room again and reapply. Please do not misinform people to protect the only thing you know how to do.

Though you are correct, the more I think about, at least with entangle you can still cure. and like I said escape. So maybe the comparison is not valid, Pincharge is far more heinous.

Xenthos

The pincharge lockdown is obviously not 8 seconds, and you can still cure while pinned.

So, given actual facts, Darkseed could use a toning down.  It could just be a faux entangle that functions like the geo one (knocking off balance with a message that the person is escaping the vines).  Seems more fair.  Actually throwing entangle into the mix skews things quite a bit.