Design Rules Feedback

Charites

This thread is for all of you to hurl your many, entirely understandable questions at Us. If you prefer you can also message them directly to Us (in game, not on the forums!) - but this thread will hopefully serve to collect many of the more frequently asked ones together.

If you have any recommendations for other commodity base cost reviews, you may also let Us know them here. We appreciate that We only touched the worst offenders, and are keen to ensure that costs across the board are sensible and fair.

We will do Our best to respond ASAP, but We expect a high volume of queries in the coming few weeks, so thank you for bearing with Us in that time. Likewise as mentioned in the Announce news, We anticipate submission processing time to be a little lower for a while as everyone adjusts.

Misericorde

For designs we want the comms changed for: would you prefer 1 message with lots of designs in it, or one message PER design?

Charites

@Misericorde One message per design, please! This will be much easier than attempting to dissect one almighty paragraph.

Xenthos

Can you paste the new rules here (or at least what you can easily get if they are not centralized) for people who cannot log on so do not know what (if any) questions to ask?

Charites

@Xenthos Sure! Links for the distant:

HELP DESIGNS

HELP HOW TO DESIGN

HELP DESIGN COMMS

The announce is also available online, but you might need to be logged into the website to see it.

Xenthos

Typo HELP DESIGNS Please make "apporpriate" read as "appropriate" instead.

Typo HELP DESIGNS Please add a comma after "For example" (I think it can be removed from after the garnet if you want).

Comment: "Minor magical effects" from essence is super vague and subject to whims.  What is fine one month may get rejected the next by a different reviewer.  Could some examples of "good" and "bad" effects be included as guidelines?  Say "not limited to these, but along these lines: warm to touch, cold to touch, shadowed, shimmery, lightly glowing.  Bad: actual permanent flames, constantly renewing watery streams, an eyeball that rolls around in a socket" for example.  It would be appreciated to have SOMETHING to work with!

Will review the others when I get a chance.

Charites

@Xenthos Typos all fixed, thank you for spotting them!

We've added a very basic example to that minor magical effects section. It's worth knowing that anything that looks even slightly too magical is going to be flagged by Our reviewers for Us to review personally:
      - For example, using silveressence to add a shimmer or lightessence for a faint glow is fine - attempting to use cloudessence to make your item perpetually levitate is not.

Shaddus

I recently had a scale jacket design rejected. Among the other reason for rejection, it told me that it now required 200+ commodities as opposed to 20. Is this because of the new armor rules?

Will you be accepting new template ideas any time soon?

Coraline

Is it too late to ask for spices to be included in the list of base commodities for Cooking? 

Charites

@Shaddus Yes, that's Our new changes showing up. Scale (and Chain) jackets offer the same amount of armour as Plate, so their costs have been normalised. All armour commodity costs now scale according to their damage reduction and the number of enhancements they can take. You can also now make Scale and Chain into Masterarmour.

In terms of pattern ideas, We will be eventually but not right now - We want to get these rules up and running and everything settled first.

@Coraline We're going to say no on that one. Basic commodities are the fundamental materials that make up an item. To compare it to an existing basic commodity, you could totally make food that's primarily sugar, but it would be harder to make something of spices. They're more something you add in - same with something like salt.

Xenthos

Did we really make it so that kitting newbies in armour takes 200+ comms?  Having a cheap option for them was nice...

Edit: Leather does not work because it does not provide any protection.  I thought that the normalizing of comms was to bring the expensive things in line, not to make the cheap stuff universally expensive.

Parhelion

I agree with Xenthos. I'm disappointed that instead of finding a happy medium between plate and scale/chain comm-wise, that the latter were instead raised up to meet plate.

Daraius

Will there ever be a place for designs that require super rare ingredients? 

Misericorde

The artisan costs are still egregious -  a 200 comm swap between beds and teasets? 400 to make a teaset is pretty ridiculous

Charites

@Daraius The difficulty with rare ingredients is that if you include them, you need to also list those limitations somewhere. Let's take ginger for an example. There was only one replica for that in existence. So all it took was a designer unknowingly putting "ginger 2" or wanting to make more than one of something at once and suddenly, everything's broken.

Our minimum for creating a commodity now is that there are at least 5 of the item readily available. That's still pretty rare. It's still going to require people to be careful about how much they add and limit how much they can make. But it's a bit less dangerous than there only being one of something.

Of course you can also substitute. So let's say you want to include tanzanite - there's no tanzanite commodity, so you just use gems. You can still design with something rare, as long as there's a reasonable equivalent. If there isn't a reasonable equivalent, that's the time to message Us with a request for a new commodity.

Charites

RE: Commodity costs. As noted in the newsposts We do want to keep reviewing this, so if you have a concern about a new cost (or an existing one that hasn't been changed) then just comment here with the specific cost(s) you're concerned about. We won't reply to every such comment individually, but We are discussing them.

Xenthos

Plate and masterwork costs were too high.  I regularly made newbies cheap, just as (or almost as) effective alternatives so they could enjoy the game without grinding.  I do not know if non masterwork costs were raised, but if so that needs to be undone (for both kata and warrior weapons).  For min/maxing everyone eventually upgraded to master weapons for that second slot so it was fine.  Nobody was really hobbled, but there was incentive to upgrade.

Idea: If you are really concerned, apply the same treatment to armour.  Return scale and chain to their previous cost but take away their enhancement slot (can grandfather in existing armour).  Gives incentive to upgrade eventually without drastically increasing the burden on the people we are trying to get to keep logging back in!

Parhelion

Looking at the general lack of use in teasets beyond an rp asset, I wonder if we couldn't lower the commodity cost for them. I understand the need for them to be complex, but given the fact that we're talking about a tray, plus glasses, plus (probably) bowls and saucers of food items which don't actually do anything outside of RP, I feel that teasets should have a reduced commodity cost, if not a reduction in skill level required to make them. With very little skill in arts, I can make cups and bottles. It isn't too much of a leap to say that I should be able to make saucers or bowls, and a tray is nothing but a large plate.

Daraius

Okay, that makes sense vis-a-vis an unwitting designer requiring more than the extant number of commodities in a design. I wonder if, with comments now being permanent, super rare commodities could be permitted with the appropriate disclaimer? I just feel like it'd be great if we mortals could make things that are actually rare, or require real effort to obtain -- like something that uses the world's only ginger, which can only be made one batch at a time. Substituting in something common for a an ingredient that's supposed to be rare (e.g. using spices instead of ginger, when ginger is apparently a rare thing in Lusternia) seems counterintuitive.

But I can accept that the design system just isn't meant to work like that and give up my dream of selling the First World's most exclusive tea.

Whining aside, I love all the new tints, and as a tattooist I'm very happy not to have to inject straight coal into my clients anymore. 

Parhelion

- Master Armour: 25% reduction. Granted by the forging Masterarmour ability. Can only be used by the owner, and will only provide forged armour-level defense for non-forgers.



So if I retain Knighthood but not forging, this simply returns to basic Plate status besides the nondecay?

Misericorde

Xenthos said:

 I do not know if non masterwork costs were raised, but if so that needs to be undone (for both kata and warrior weapons). 

Non-master warrior weapons were bumped from 30 comms to 50 as far as I can tell

Xenthos

That is how it has worked for a while now, since the last tradeskill review.  The intent being that you cannot benefit from a trans trade skill item without having that tradeskill.  Everything reverts to its "normal" nature.  Magictomes are a semi-exception in that you can keep using it as a one-item scroll, but it loses its damage resist component.

Misericorde

Old Forging Comms:

Forging commodities required:

Clubs ........................ 4+
Blades ....................... 8+
Leather: bracers ............. 4+
Leather: cap ................. 6+
Leather: leggings ............ 8+
Leather: vest ................ 12+
Leather: sling ............... 8+
Shields ...................... 50+
Axes ......................... 30+
Scale: helmet ................ 10+
Scale: leggings .............. 20+
Scale: jacket ................ 20+
Swords ....................... 30+
Chain: coif .................. 30+
Chain: leggings .............. 60+
Chain: shirt ................. 90+
Polearms ..................... 40+
Plate ........................ 250+
Greathelms ................... 70+
Greatshields ................. 110+
Masterweapons ................ 200+
Scabbards .................... 10+
Masterkata ................... 200+
Bludgeons .................... 40+
Kata ......................... 30+
Standards .................... 100+

New Forging Comms:
Forging commodities required:

Clubs ........................ 50+
Blades ....................... 50+
Leather: bracers ............. 5+
Leather: cap ................. 5+
Leather: leggings ............ 10+
Leather: vest ................ 20+
Leather: sling ............... 20+
Shields ...................... 30+
Axes ......................... 50+
Scale: helmet ................ 30+
Scale: leggings .............. 50+
Scale: jacket ................ 200+
Swords ....................... 50+
Chain: coif .................. 30+
Chain: leggings .............. 50+
Chain: shirt ................. 200+
Polearms ..................... 50+
Plate ........................ 200+
Greathelms ................... 30+
Greatshields ................. 30+
Masterweapons ................ 100+
Scabbards .................... 50+
Masterkata ................... 100+
Bludgeons .................... 50+
Kata ......................... 50+
Standards .................... 100+

@xenthos

Parhelion

Wait, what?  Clubs take 50 comms?

Edit: If caps/coifs/leggings don't actually do anything, why aren't they the same cost for comms?

Misericorde

Old Artisan Comms:

Artisan commodities required:

Stools ....................... 10+
Baskets ...................... 10+
Chairs ....................... 20+
Smalltables .................. 40+
Wallfeatures ................. 20+
Couches ...................... 75+
Drapes ....................... 200+
Rockers ...................... 300+
Chests ....................... 250+
Rugs ......................... 150+
Tapestries ................... 250+
Largetables .................. 400+
Cabinets ..................... 400+
Racks ........................ 400+
Beds ......................... 400+
Bookshelves .................. 650+
Chandeliers .................. 1250+
Tents ........................ 75+
Thrones ...................... 1250+
Desks ........................ 270+
Pipes ........................ 10+
Fightingrings ................ 170+
Instruments .................. 150+ with 50%+ wood, or 375+
Horns ........................ 75+
Timepieces ................... 120+
Musicboxes ................... 200+
Jewelryboxes ................. 125+
Boxes: keg ................... 75+
Boxes: box ................... 30+
Teasets ...................... 600+
Pedestals .................... 350+
Easels ....................... 50+

New Artisan Comms:

Artisan commodities required:

Stools ....................... 10+
Baskets ...................... 10+
Chairs ....................... 20+
Smalltables .................. 40+
Wallfeatures ................. 20+
Couches ...................... 75+
Drapes ....................... 200+
Rockers ...................... 300+
Chests ....................... 250+
Rugs ......................... 150+
Tapestries ................... 250+
Largetables .................. 400+
Cabinets ..................... 400+
Racks ........................ 400+
Beds ......................... 600+
Bookshelves .................. 650+
Chandeliers .................. 1250+
Tents ........................ 75+
Thrones ...................... 1250+
Desks ........................ 270+
Pipes ........................ 10+
Fightingrings ................ 170+
Instruments .................. 100+ with 50%+ wood, or 200+
Horns ........................ 30+
Timepieces ................... 75+
Musicboxes ................... 200+
Jewelleryboxes ............... 125+
Boxes: keg ................... 75+
Boxes: box ................... 30+
Teasets ...................... 400+
Pedestals .................... 350+
Easels ....................... 50+

I really feel like you could realistically cut all artisan costs in half and even then some would still be too expensive.

Misericorde

Old Tailoring Comms:

Tailoring commodities required:

Shoes ........................ 6+
Underwear .................... 6+
Shirts ....................... 10+
Hats ......................... 10+
Tunics ....................... 14+
Pants ........................ 18+
Coats ........................ 22+
Accessories: backpack ........ 16+
Accessories: belt ............ 4+
Accessories: bag ............. 4+
Accessories: apron ........... 10+
Accessories: veil ............ 8+
Accessories: vest ............ 12+
Accessories: gloves .......... 20+
Accessories: scarf ........... 12+
Accessories: shawl ........... 22+
Accessories: blanket ......... 50+
Accessories: satchel ......... 20+
Accessories: pouch ........... 20+
Accessories: stole ........... 10+
Lingerie ..................... 16+
Dresses ...................... 28+
Greatrobes ................... 125+
Highfashion .................. 36+
Splendor ..................... 200+
Accessories: mask ............ 12+
Greatrobes: gown ............. 100+
Greatrobes: suit ............. 100+
Greatrobes: robes ............ 125+
Greatrobes: hat .............. 25+
Splendor: robes .............. 200+
Splendor: gown ............... 150+
Splendor: suit ............... 150+
Splendor: hat ................ 50+
Accessories: fascinator ...... 12+
Accessories: headpiece ....... 12+

New Tailoring Comms:
Tailoring commodities required:

Shoes ........................ 6+
Underwear .................... 6+
Shirts ....................... 10+
Hats ......................... 10+
Tunics ....................... 14+
Pants ........................ 18+
Coats ........................ 22+
Accessories: backpack ........ 16+
Accessories: belt ............ 4+
Accessories: bag ............. 4+
Accessories: apron ........... 10+
Accessories: veil ............ 8+
Accessories: vest ............ 12+
Accessories: gloves .......... 20+
Accessories: scarf ........... 12+
Accessories: shawl ........... 22+
Accessories: blanket ......... 50+
Accessories: satchel ......... 20+
Accessories: pouch ........... 20+
Accessories: stole ........... 10+
Lingerie ..................... 16+
Dresses ...................... 28+
Greatrobes ................... 125+
Highfashion .................. 36+
Splendor ..................... 200+
Accessories: mask ............ 12+
Greatrobes: gown ............. 120+
Greatrobes: suit ............. 120+
Greatrobes: robes ............ 120+
Greatrobes: hat .............. 30+
Splendor: robes .............. 160+
Splendor: gown ............... 160+
Splendor: suit ............... 160+
Splendor: hat ................ 30+
Accessories: fascinator ...... 12+
Accessories: headpiece ....... 12+

Xenthos

Notes:
You set the same costs for 1h and 2h weapons.  Polearms take 50 comms, blades take 50 comms.  Looking at old vs. new costs, I'm going to suggest that 1h non-masterwork weapons have 20 comm base and 2h non-masterwork weapons are 40.
You have varying costs for aesthetic items (helmets, leggings) despite them having no mechanical effect whatsoever.  Setting it all to the same cost as leather leggings.  Same with leather vest because it has no defensive properties either.
Why did scabbards become 5x the cost?  There seems to be no reason for that whatsoever.  Putting it back the way it was.
Masterweapons seem to have been significantly reduced in cost, but base weapons were also significantly raised.  Preferably base weapons get set back closer to where they were because new players, if they pick a weapon spec, like to actually be able to get weapons for their spec!
Suggesting the reduction in comm cost for scale/chain in exchange for removal of their enhancement slot; far too expensive for a new player, and who likes to be told "Your chainmail is as expensive as plate, so might's well just run around without armour"?  There needs to be something accessible, and a 20 comm price point was perfect imo.
</code><code>

Clubs ........................ 20+
Blades ....................... 20/40+
Leather: bracers ............. 10+
Leather: cap ................. 10+
Leather: leggings ............ 10+
Leather: vest ................ 10+
Leather: sling ............... 10+
Shields ...................... 30+
Axes ......................... 20/40+
Scale: helmet ................ 10+
Scale: leggings .............. 10+
Scale: jacket ................ 20+
Swords ....................... 20/40+
Chain: coif .................. 10+
Chain: leggings .............. 10+
Chain: shirt ................. 20+
Polearms ..................... 40+
Plate ........................ 200+
Greathelms ................... 10+
Greatshields ................. 30+
Masterweapons ................ 100/200+
Scabbards .................... 10+
Masterkata ................... 100/200+
Bludgeons .................... 20/40+
Kata ......................... 20/40+
Standards .................... 100+<code>Suggested costs<br>Forging commodities required:<br><br>

I think that this is a much more consistent range of comm requirements, leaving affordable options, and still charging a fair bit for the stuff that everyone is going to want in the end when they're settled in.

Charites

Parhelion

Time to make a cocoa pod fascinator.

Jolanthe

Syntax: MIX [number] BRONZE

Mix up a batch of warm bronze tincture if you have the right

ingredients.

Ingredients: gold 1 silver 1 faeleaf 1

... bronze has always been represented by iron prior. Why are we now changing it be more prohibitive and expensive? Gold is already in goldtint, silver is already in silvertint.

Gurashi

Question: for foodstuffs we design, should we refer to recipes with chocolate in them as 'cocoa chip cookie' or 'cocoa cake' , or is it ok to say a chocolate chip cookie/chocolate cake?