Your Avatar is too fitting for this. I hope that argu-discussion a few weeks back didn't spark this
Most of my god blogs are inspired by conversations with other gods about what they're experiencing or what they're learning, and this one was no exception. That particular discussion Maligorn and Isune had didn't inspire this - but it's certainly an example of pushing your luck with a Divine! Doing so is very much Swim at Your Own Risk.
Your Avatar is too fitting for this. I hope that argu-discussion a few weeks back didn't spark this
There has also been some discussion in various circles about Gods "flinging Their weight around" (which is not even in reference to Isune); that tends to be a trigger for a number of these God Blog posts, someone trying to give the playerbase a view from the "other side of the fence". I generally find it refreshing, it's nice to have that interaction. It is far better than not having it at all.
It has also been stated numerous times by Estarra that mortals are not supposed to have grudge matches with Gods; it is intended to be an uneven contest. I personally find the game more interesting that way; they are far more powerful than we are, but we have to occasionally step on egg shells around them because they also have their flaws (just like the deities in most mythology). Some Gods enjoy the verbal spar, others get zappy (remember Terentia?), and each has their own unique personality.
Think if we used the suggested "turn the Engine pink" (in example) as a form of punishment, it should be something thought of ahead of time so the players are allowed to find a way to reverse such a thing. Otherwise its forcy-RP and not really enjoyable, nor fair to people who weren't involved in whatever ensued to earn that kind of 'RP punishment'.... Think if I was a lot older player in said punished org, I'd probably log right back out if I found out Glomdoring was blasted with pink arrays of sparkling glitter and there was no Quest/RP to get rid of such an ugly mess.
Think if we used the suggested "turn the Engine pink" (in example) as a form of punishment, it should be something thought of ahead of time so the players are allowed to find a way to reverse such a thing. Otherwise its forcy-RP and not really enjoyable, nor fair to people who weren't involved in whatever ensued to earn that kind of 'RP punishment'.... Think if I was a lot older player in said punished org, I'd probably log right back out if I found out Glomdoring was blasted with pink arrays of sparkling glitter and there was no Quest/RP to get rid of such an ugly mess.
For what it's worth, I can guarantee that the Engine will never ever be allowed to remain pink indefinitely. An org is most likely to endure the extreme wrath of a god when a prominent player in that org (such as the CL or ascendant) deliberately provokes a god into retaliation. Most times, a sincere apology and/or grovelling is enough to make the distasteful mess of godly rage go away.
Do I get a rush from seeing how far Gods can be prodded for knowledge or Their stance on certain goings-on? Yes.
I probably would never do it around certain Gods though, like Fain or Morgfyre, or Mysrai or Shikari or Viravain...a lot, really.
EDIT: And I totally agree, I wouldn't change anything about the way Gods are. The unevenness, Their flaws, etc. And I looove god blogs.
Total adrenaline rush. Sassing off to Fain as he ruminated over blowing up the Illuminati guildhall was too much fun.
While I agree that the power dynamics between mortals and Divine in Lusternia are blatantly tilted, from a player perspective, I realize that mortals are capable of bringing about change that the Gods cannot achieve on Their own(i.e., restoring the Seals and sealing Kethuru). This has been demonstrated on many occasions through displays of large scale teamwork, something the Divine have learned to do prior to the Vernal Wars. However, They have continued to prove that Their personal agendas and bias ossify into cliquish behaviour that proliferates mortal organisational culture and its subsystems. Are they vastly more powerful? Yes. Are they infallible and beyond error? No.
While I doubt any of Them would like to admit it, the Gods of Lusternia need mortals as much as we 'need' need Them. Why? Because the jailer and the prisoner are stuck in the same building. If for whatever reason(as unrealistic as that seems) a mortal cannot ascend, Creation is screwed. That means everything on the microcosmic scale is getting rewoven, which presumably includes the Elders. Mortals turn to the Divine to find significance and meaning in being alive(playing the game), which also parallels the actual needs of the game's community at large to maintain immersion and involvement.
If you want to get technical, the difference between a God and a mortal is the difference between a human and an ant. Both come from Yudhe source. They are equally valid in existing with their own unique expression -- one simply has a macrocosmic advantage in terms of consciousness. If you have a million man-eating ants and one human, who do you think wins?
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Getting cheeky with @Lisaera is fun, getting murdered for pushing to far isn't much fun, reward in the commune and congratulations from Naime's role models in the commune make it worth it.
But now I know, Lisaera can only be belittled so far
Your Avatar is too fitting for this. I hope that argu-discussion a few weeks back didn't spark this
There has also been some discussion in various circles about Gods "flinging Their weight around" (which is not even in reference to Isune); that tends to be a trigger for a number of these God Blog posts, someone trying to give the playerbase a view from the "other side of the fence". I generally find it refreshing, it's nice to have that interaction. It is far better than not having it at all.
It has also been stated numerous times by Estarra that mortals are not supposed to have grudge matches with Gods; it is intended to be an uneven contest. I personally find the game more interesting that way; they are far more powerful than we are, but we have to occasionally step on egg shells around them because they also have their flaws (just like the deities in most mythology). Some Gods enjoy the verbal spar, others get zappy (remember Terentia?), and each has their own unique personality.
I love the Viravain and Shikari visions!
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Do I get a rush from seeing how far Gods can be prodded for knowledge or Their stance on certain goings-on? Yes.
Same, it's like riding a mechanical bull. You know you can't win, but that's irrelevant, it's about how long you can hang in there.
Anyone who goes into conflict with a Divine expecting anything but an eventual loss is kidding themselves, there's nothing to stop you having it out with a God, just know you won't come out unscathed. If it's staying true to your character to pick that fight, good luck with you, just don't expect to have it go your way.
Ultimately though, it needs to be fun for all involved, and that's both mortals and divine.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Lovely post, Isune, and very timely. I've been thinking about this issue of divine vs mortals a lot myself, and I don't believe the power imbalance is always clear. There are many awful things the gods can do to deal with unruly mortals(with some restrictions), but mortals do have the ability to make game-life pretty miserable for a god- or at least, a god's player. Us mortals typically can choose not to deal with each other with no adverse consequences, but gods would most likely face a lot of criticism for doing the same. And it's not that I think mortals should tiptoe around them or not roleplay being angry about divine actions, just to remember that they are players too, and being on that 'other side of the fence' and having shiny powers isn't necessarily easy.
Seems like I've had a similar conversation recently IC, and greatly enjoyed saying this to Karlach:
Karlach tells you, "What would you have them do when She acts as She has, submit?"
You tell Forge-born Karlach Stormcrow, Master of the Bloodhunt, "I don't make a habit of insulting the Divine, so I would probably continue with that policy."
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Lovely post, Isune, and very timely. I've been thinking about this issue of divine vs mortals a lot myself, and I don't believe the power imbalance is always clear. There are many awful things the gods can do to deal with unruly mortals(with some restrictions), but mortals do have the ability to make game-life pretty miserable for a god- or at least, a god's player. Us mortals typically can choose not to deal with each other with no adverse consequences, but gods would most likely face a lot of criticism for doing the same. And it's not that I think mortals should tiptoe around them or not roleplay being angry about divine actions, just to remember that they are players too, and being on that 'other side of the fence' and having shiny powers isn't necessarily easy.
Seems like I've had a similar conversation recently IC, and greatly enjoyed saying this to Karlach:
Karlach tells you, "What would you have them do when She acts as She has, submit?"
You tell Forge-born Karlach Stormcrow, Master of the Bloodhunt, "I don't make a habit of insulting the Divine, so I would probably continue with that policy."
I remember the days when Glom's policy was to always be respectful towards the Divine, guess that's changed
Your Avatar is too fitting for this. I hope that argu-discussion a few weeks back didn't spark this
Most of my god blogs are inspired by conversations with other gods about what they're experiencing or what they're learning, and this one was no exception. That particular discussion Maligorn and Isune had didn't inspire this - but it's certainly an example of pushing your luck with a Divine! Doing so is very much Swim at Your Own Risk.
Admittedly, as I mentioned in my reply on the actual blog itself, Kagato DID push his luck too far with @Isune in the past and was zapped (on two separate occasions) for his behaviours. That being said, I still immensely enjoyed the interactions between Isune and him, because it was pushing him out of his typical comfort zone and into an area new for him.
In an OOC sense, I had a lot of fun with it and look forward to any future opportunities that Kagato may get to mend his mistakes.
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
Lovely post, Isune, and very timely. I've been thinking about this issue of divine vs mortals a lot myself, and I don't believe the power imbalance is always clear. There are many awful things the gods can do to deal with unruly mortals(with some restrictions), but mortals do have the ability to make game-life pretty miserable for a god- or at least, a god's player. Us mortals typically can choose not to deal with each other with no adverse consequences, but gods would most likely face a lot of criticism for doing the same. And it's not that I think mortals should tiptoe around them or not roleplay being angry about divine actions, just to remember that they are players too, and being on that 'other side of the fence' and having shiny powers isn't necessarily easy.
Precisely. And to expand on Karlach's thoughts, it is not so much about 'winning' that battle, but watching it unfold as an epic story within the game's world. I can speak from personal experience here when I say I know my altercations with a certain Divine are not going to result in a storybook ending, but the opportunity to roleplay and explore that story is what makes Lusternia titillating.
Lusternians have as much a chance to challenge the Divine as an illiterate vagabond from Athas has a chance to kill a Sorcerer-King. It's quite nearly impossible. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do it anyways and enjoy the ride.
While I find Isune utterly lovely and enjoy the sentiments in her post, I don't subscribe to the ideology that players shouldn't give the Divine flack or should strictly mind their p's and q's(not that she's necessarily saying that to begin with!). The idea that Gods are inherently superior or better than mortals is a very antediluvian belief structure that permeates the Basin. My character chooses to challenge that mental setup, because in her experience that mode of thinking is greatly flawed and feeds into a stagnant status quo for the expansion of mortal awareness.
There are plenty of ways to cause grief for a God; from pulling political strings, weaving counter-culture propaganda, to making pacts with other like-minded Divine who also want to see Them fail. And if you have a Divine or a group that supports you in causing trouble, that certainly evens the playing field, if ever so slightly. At the very least, you can be an perpetual thorn in Their side -- and the fact that the task is so daunting makes it that much more appealing. The moment something is forbidden, it has becomes an invitation.
The real 'magic' or nature of victory in Lusternia isn't just winning conflict or determining whose stronger; it's in the assertion of your own intent to influence the beliefs of others. The Divine have that power, but so do mortals; there is no limitation, just a disparity in the plateaus they are executed on. By changing beliefs, you change attitudes. By changing attitudes, you change behaviours. By changing the behaviours, you change the subjective universe of the being. And that change in the subjective being can eventually throttle a change in the objective world at large.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
The idea that Gods are inherently superior or better than mortals is not actually an outdated "belief", since it's mechanically enforced as being actually factual. They certainly do have human-like emotions and therefore failings, and some of them choose not to rub their superiority in the face of the mortals that worship them (there are also those who have masochistic followers who love to be stepped on as they grovel at the feet of their divine), but that doesn't make them not inherently superior to Lusternian mortals, just saying. Any character can disagree with that in-game, of course, but the position is itself untenable from a intellectual (in-game) point of view.
The idea that Gods are inherently superior or better than mortals is not actually an outdated "belief", since it's mechanically enforced as being actually factual. They certainly do have human-like emotions and therefore failings, and some of them choose not to rub their superiority in the face of the mortals that worship them (there are also those who have masochistic followers who love to be stepped on as they grovel at the feet of their divine), but that doesn't make them not inherently superior to Lusternian mortals, just saying. Any character can disagree with that in-game, of course, but the position is itself untenable from a intellectual (in-game) point of view.
Sure it's tenable. You're right that the power dynamic is mechanical, but I'm speaking from a more existential point of view. Mortals are no less part of Yudhe or divine than well...the Divine. That's all Yudhe ever can be, is everything that exists. Any attribution of name or independence from the whole of Creation is an ego projection conceived from an apparent dualism. So yes, an Elder can zap you to cinders. But of what consequence is that to the entirety of existence? A diamond is no more valuable than a dunghill, in the grand picture of things. The same can be said with shards and the Elders they sharded from. You can quantify strength, but that does not mean 'superior' at its most essential nature.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
I would perhaps add in the caveat that a god's player often cannot express their OOC discomfort with a situation the way a normal player can. The more vehemently you challenge a god, the stronger their response has to be, and a constant tug-of-war can be draining for both the mortal and Divine sides. The suggestion of allying with a Divine to express disagreement with another Elder is a smart one, because it can lead to really fun and really interesting events that the gods themselves have agreed upon beforehand. My favorite example of this is when Maylea and Nocht had the Allessa event to release Maylea's priestess, and Maylea and Nocht's orders both schemed ways to outwit the other. If you hated Nocht or if you hated Maylea, opportunities abounded to interfere with either side (looking at you, @Xenthos!). It does even the playing field, both in giving players a fun outlet to express IC ideas, and giving admin the OOC relief of being able to ask one another, "What are you comfortable with? Will this be fun for you?" Mortal-side, it also lowers the stakes of getting involved in personalised Divine conflict, because the end result is less likely to be zapping and more likely to be court intrigue and questing.
I would perhaps add in the caveat that a god's player often cannot express their OOC discomfort with a situation the way a normal player can. The more vehemently you challenge a god, the stronger their response has to be, and a constant tug-of-war can be draining for both the mortal and Divine sides. The suggestion of allying with a Divine to express disagreement with another Elder is a smart one, because it can lead to really fun and really interesting events that the gods themselves have agreed upon beforehand. My favorite example of this is when Maylea and Nocht had the Allessa event to release Maylea's priestess, and Maylea and Nocht's orders both schemed ways to outwit the other. If you hated Nocht or if you hated Maylea, opportunities abounded to interfere with either side (looking at you, @Xenthos!). It does even the playing field, both in giving players a fun outlet to express IC ideas, and giving admin the OOC relief of being able to ask one another, "What are you comfortable with? Will this be fun for you?" Mortal-side, it also lowers the stakes of getting involved in personalised Divine conflict, because the end result is less likely to be zapping and more likely to be court intrigue and questing.
This is good to know, and something I hadn't considered. I suppose the gulf in power makes it seem like an Elder doesn't need to break a sweat, so most people would assume it's not so much a tug-of-war as it is a hanging of the noose. But we're all players who get burnt out in one form or another. I believe there are two ways to go about conflict with a Divine. You can be belligerent and outwardly express malcontent through shouts, which results in zapping-or at worst, maggoting. And then there is the intrigue, the plot-thickening, the subtle nuances of a score to settle. If you find the finesse in your conflict, it can be a beautiful and stimulating thing. I believe defense is the first act of war, and while I empathise with the notion of a god living up to the role they've selected-- Divine or not, you should be willing to take what is thrown back at you.
For a long time I have been under the impression that volunteers are in a position of service to the game, and by extension of that, it's community and the responsibility to keep it thriving. Of course, everyone who plays wants to have fun, but it's my opinion the price of being an immortal means taking up that duty and setting aside your own biases towards the playerbase. That may not always turn out to be Fun™, but if your actions within the game contradict that goal or it affects you adversely-- perhaps its time to go back to the drawing board and reevaluate. Under no circumstances should a player be able to addle a volunteer to the point they cannot perform their role or enjoy playing it, conflict or not; vice versa should also hold true if the priority of that admin is to support the game. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
I would perhaps add in the caveat that a god's player often cannot express their OOC discomfort with a situation the way a normal player can. The more vehemently you challenge a god, the stronger their response has to be, and a constant tug-of-war can be draining for both the mortal and Divine sides. The suggestion of allying with a Divine to express disagreement with another Elder is a smart one, because it can lead to really fun and really interesting events that the gods themselves have agreed upon beforehand. My favorite example of this is when Maylea and Nocht had the Allessa event to release Maylea's priestess, and Maylea and Nocht's orders both schemed ways to outwit the other. If you hated Nocht or if you hated Maylea, opportunities abounded to interfere with either side (looking at you, @Xenthos!). It does even the playing field, both in giving players a fun outlet to express IC ideas, and giving admin the OOC relief of being able to ask one another, "What are you comfortable with? Will this be fun for you?" Mortal-side, it also lowers the stakes of getting involved in personalised Divine conflict, because the end result is less likely to be zapping and more likely to be court intrigue and questing.
Why would anyone hate Nocht?
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
"Under no circumstances should a player be able to addle a volunteer to the point they cannot perform their role or enjoy playing it, conflict or not."
Absolutely. Conflict is fine, but it has consequences, particularly when taken too far. It's easy to see this when it's a god pushing their power onto players (one reason we don't attack orgs every other week), but the reverse is just as true. Unlike players, who can log out when disinterested without great consequence, an admin might need a break and as a result, the design queue clogs up, or the bug list swells, or bardics are late, or issues go unresolved longer than they ought to. Worse, a god might stop wanting to be a roleplay presence, and they simply hide behind the scenes instead. This is worst case scenario, but it doesn't often get factored into discussions of this nature, likely because gods don't have what I mentioned earlier: the ability to tell mortals when they are OOCly frustrated. Conflict between a god and a mortal can be done well, but it's imbalanced in several ways, and it helps on both sides to remember that Lusternia is a community, not a novel they're writing themselves into.
Poking a hornets' nest isn't really fun for the hornets or for the person poking. People get stung and everyone winds up looking ugly.
Poking a hornets' nest isn't really fun for the hornets or for the person poking. People get stung and everyone winds up looking ugly.
This is very true, but I would take that analogy a step further. A hornets nest leaves stings that eventually heal. There have been circumstances of Divine who mammoth-stomped the faces of players in a borderline unethical fashion. I think that is where much of the enmity comes from in mortal vs Divine conflict. Although admittedly some of the players did take things too far, others did not. The seemingly 'appropriate' assertion of power by a god can cause irreparable damage to a character that's invested a lot of real world money into Lusternia. We're talking thousands of dollars here. I have seen some players leave altogether and even experience some PTSD in the aftermath. The players may act like a hornets nest, but the Divine are the proverbial flamethrower.
In my opinion, the Divine should not be too preoccupied with the notion that they are conventional players of the game; the fact of the matter is they are administrators, not just players. They have a specific role to play in the infrastructure of the game, in and out of their God role, and it comes with the realization that Lusternia is not just a community, it is a business. That business hinges on the social atmosphere and attitudes that they carry. They are for all intended purposes, representing the brand and vision of Lusternia. So while it is the case that the Divine have a certain advantage when it comes to in-game conflict, I believe some mindfulness to the aforementioned should always be present when interacting with the community. That may sound like a preferential bias that makes the volunteer position sound slavish, but I think anything less is a disservice.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Thanks, Isune. Appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
I felt compelled to expand on the topic, since it's a subject a lot of players think about but rarely get to discuss openly, especially with the limitations that come with communicating certain things as a God.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Comments
It has also been stated numerous times by Estarra that mortals are not supposed to have grudge matches with Gods; it is intended to be an uneven contest. I personally find the game more interesting that way; they are far more powerful than we are, but we have to occasionally step on egg shells around them because they also have their flaws (just like the deities in most mythology). Some Gods enjoy the verbal spar, others get zappy (remember Terentia?), and each has their own unique personality.
I probably would never do it around certain Gods though, like Fain or Morgfyre, or Mysrai or Shikari or Viravain...a lot, really.
EDIT: And I totally agree, I wouldn't change anything about the way Gods are. The unevenness, Their flaws, etc. And I looove god blogs.
EDIT 2: Suddenly, I understand the title of the god blog. Lightbulb, etc.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
But now I know, Lisaera can only be belittled so far
It's true, I really am you.
Same, it's like riding a mechanical bull. You know you can't win, but that's irrelevant, it's about how long you can hang in there.
Anyone who goes into conflict with a Divine expecting anything but an eventual loss is kidding themselves, there's nothing to stop you having it out with a God, just know you won't come out unscathed. If it's staying true to your character to pick that fight, good luck with you, just don't expect to have it go your way.
Ultimately though, it needs to be fun for all involved, and that's both mortals and divine.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015