Warrior Bleeding

Keegan

Yo.

This seems pretty janky.
Bleedout might be too strong and just hasn't been seen before, but I'm pretty sure these numbers are absurdly high, especially considering this is without nightsweats proccing.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/I2MqPo70

Particularly the fact that Snald's lattermost hit struck for 1000 bleeding on its own, seems kinda jank.

Zagreus

*a bird swoops in and drops this package off*

Bleedout double bleeding, at heavy rleg wounds.

<div>7263h, 5580m, 10800e, 10p, 303bl, 0br elrxd<>-(---P-ls--b) {44.2115}
Snald strikes at your right leg with a sinister steel greatsword.
Thin tendrils of shadow reach out from Snald to rake across your skin.
You suddenly feel lightheaded.
You are afflicted with haemophilia.
Snald skewers your leg, loosing a fountain of blood.
You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 100 for a total of 227 hemorrhaging.
5463h, 5580m, 10800e, 10p, 2609bl, 0br elrxd<>-(---P-ls--b) {44.2438} -1800&nbsp;</div>

Casual 2303 bleeding in one hit.

Aramel

I've experienced this issue too. 1hit (at light leg wounds) = 1000+ bleeding. Was this always the case?

Pysynne

With bleedout up it is possible, but shouldn't be from just a light leg wounds hit without it.

Makai

Pretty sure that much bleeding from PB is limited to Ebonguard. Looks light Nightkiss afflicted haemophilia, PinLeg and I'm guessing nightsweats with BleedOut and in Bleeder stance.

Aramel

Snald gives you the once over.
8787|77% 8493|71% 9300|100% 7 52|33|117 B_xkbp [Unitos]
Snald strikes at your right leg with a sinister steel greatsword.
[Concord]: Gain: haemophilia
The blade of Snald's sword slices deeply into your right leg, leaving it lightly
wounded.
7072|62% 8493|71% 9300|100% 7 1126|33|117 B_xkbp [Unitos](-1715h -16%)
You may apply more restorative ice salve to yourself.
7072|62% 8493|71% 9300|100% 7 1126|33|117 B_xkbp [Unitos]
[Autocuring]: Curing 'damagedrightleg' with 'apply ice to rleg'.
You take out some restorative ice and quickly rub it on your right leg.
The salve mends your right leg, curing your afflictions.
[Concord]: Cure: damagedrightleg
[Autocuring]: Curing 'spiritual affliction' with 'smoke steam'.
You take a long drag off a forestal pipe.
7072|62% 8493|71% 9300|100% 7 1126|33|117 B_xkbp [Unitos]

The bolded number on my prompt is the bleed. 

Snald

I've been running Tracking since I've been pureblade for a week or so, never Night or Crow. I've also min/maxed to buff my bleed as much as possible.

Makai

Ixion said:

*a bird swoops in and drops this package off*

Bleedout double bleeding, at heavy rleg wounds.

<div>7263h, 5580m, 10800e, 10p, 303bl, 0br elrxd<>-(---P-ls--b) {44.2115}
Snald strikes at your right leg with a sinister steel greatsword.
Thin tendrils of shadow reach out from Snald to rake across your skin.
You suddenly feel lightheaded.
You are afflicted with haemophilia.
Snald skewers your leg, loosing a fountain of blood.
You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 100 for a total of 227 hemorrhaging.
5463h, 5580m, 10800e, 10p, 2609bl, 0br elrxd<>-(---P-ls--b) {44.2438} -1800&nbsp;</div>

Casual 2303 bleeding in one hit.

So what's the tendrils of shadow? Pretty sure Tracking doesn't have that, and unless you have haemophilia as your Virulent enhancement since we don't see you apply poisons either.

Xenthos

Tendrils of shadow is Glom's org water (does 1 hit of bleeding when it's active).

Snald

That would be nightweats which is 150 bleed alone unbuffed. I don't have a virulent enhancement but that doesn't mean that my sword wasn't envenomed.

Makai

Thank you for that! I figured nightsweats was being used, like I mentioned earlier. Just didn't know what it hit message was, and it really is reminiscent of Night.

Keegan

While being min-maxed for bleeding is one thing, those numbers represent an unruly ceiling. 

Aramel

1k bleed is... a lot.

Makai

I'm trying to think of how you can optimize for it. Blood aethergoop scarf, nightsweats, bleeder stance, razor enhancement, but what else?

Pysynne

dmg enchancement, maxed cutting. Since bleed is a function of damage anything that boost that boosts bleed and then you boost bleed independantly from other enchancements as well, like you said above.

Enya

And those boosts don't just stack linearly which means that any small additional buff is potentially magnified much more than might be otherwise expected. 

This has been a thing before and was the real issue with the old buffs system. It wasn't that you could stack very high dmp, as that dmp had diminishing returns in theory, it was that there were enough other layers of buffs on damage that adding 5 dmp could have dramatically different results for fully artifacted players, especially if they had some other edges acting as further multiplicative layers. That (simplifying a bit) lead to things like instakill (overkill) vacuum bombs due to stacking high dmp that was then multiplied by telepathy (in effect), multiplied by link, multiplied by magic damage rune. The numbers were all hammered out and reasonable on their own, but throwing in one additional layer of multiplication from telepathy skyrocketed the buff. 

Would not be surprised if there's something similar going on her wrt bleed multipliers stacking in unexpected ways, being multiplicative instead of additive. 

Drastrath

Min/maxing is one thing, but the real issue is the ceiling of Glom's ability to min/max bleeding which has been the subject of much discussion. 

I can say I min/maxed for x skill, but if that makes x skill overtuned then it should still be evaluated. 

Pysynne

It also needs to be evaluated from the point of what is overtuning it in that Org, not from "how do we nerf pureblade" Because it's not overtuned in other orgs.

Synl

The difference between Ebonguard PB and other PB is nightsweats, with, which bleedout active, would be 300 bleeding in the one instance you could get nightsweats to tic while bleedout is active. Difference between 1.5 and 1.8k bleeding doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, but what do I know. Not a fan of these custom org potions anyways, but I'm a pretty big fan of mirroring skillsets. Make the Glom potion the same as UnholyWater or MoonWater? Maybe make all the org potions apply the new mage effect? Swarm/Cloudcoil etc etc.

Nyana

Synl said:

The difference between Ebonguard PB and other PB is nightsweats, with, which bleedout active, would be 300 bleeding in the one instance you could get nightsweats to tic while bleedout is active. Difference between 1.5 and 1.8k bleeding doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, but what do I know. Not a fan of these custom org potions anyways, but I'm a pretty big fan of mirroring skillsets. Make the Glom potion the same as UnholyWater or MoonWater? Maybe make all the org potions apply the new mage effect? Swarm/Cloudcoil etc etc.

That's not the only difference, every class in Glom contributes to bleeding in some way, more so than other classes. Putting that aside... yeah, a 300 bleed difference is significant, because you're pressuring two different vitals among classes that do both damage and manakills. Any bleeding increase is going to be far more significant than, say, being able to cure a random affliction on sipping or return damage when attacked. Both nice, but: there's already plenty of ways to cure afflictions, and both of those affects are defensive, while Glom's org potion is offensive. Being targeted in group combat(which, let's be real, that's the only kind of combat that exists), curing a random affliction or occasionally damaging your attackers is going to do almost nothing in terms of killing anyone. Whereas causing more bleeding ->huge impact.

But... I hate mirrored skillsets. I'd rather have all the orgpotions be offensive (or all defensive), which each one contributing to the org's actual method of kills.

Makai

There's only ever been one good org potion, and that was Glomdoring's, because of it being offensive rather than defensive. I'd personally rather just see them removed or take @Synl's idea and just convert them to stack the new mage build aff. Anyway, I did more digging on the spec itself and nothing in it increases damage or increases bleeding based on anything other than wound level. So the spec of Pureblade itself isn't the difference here, as everyone can have a weapon with razor and damage. The only way to further increase that damage is to have a buff to cutting and have it be 13/13, with an alternative to put two Elite Weaponsmith runes on it for the enchanted enhancement (let's say divinus for giggles) that would convert 33% of the damage to divinus, which would bypass armour and more than likely have a lower resistance to. Because bleed is effected by damage output, this would again raise how much can be done.

So there's either something going on in another skillset, or buff from another source like items or whatnot, granting this higher bleed that we need to figure out. That is assuming that PBs outside of Glomdoring CANNOT match this amount of bleed right now using his min/max build, whatever it possibly is.

Nyana

Makai said:

There's only ever been one good org potion, and that was Glomdoring's, because of it being offensive rather than defensive.

Hallifax's is also offensive. None of the others are.

Makai

Don't think I've ever seen it used or noticed the effect...or heard it really brought up. So I can chalk that up to a mistake with no issues. Did some more talking and found a few more things that can boost bleeding in this min/max, as Snald was gracious enough to hit me up with a few facts. The Blood tailoring scarf is also in use and if a Harbinger (bard) is present it also boosts the bleeding. So nightsweats and that bard song effect are the only outliers when it comes to what others can do. I got a list of the enhancements and my prior statement was pretty spot on (leaving the damage type out, out of respect).

Dys

Gaudiguch's org potion is offensive too - fire damage on a hit (~300 I think). You drink then after 30s your next attack will do the extra damage.

Nyana

Dys said:

Gaudiguch's org potion is offensive too - fire damage on a hit (~300 I think). You drink then after 30s your next attack will do the extra damage.

Oh, that's right. Did it used to do something different before? I forgot about that one because I didn't understand the bit on the wiki about it.

Dys

I don't think so. I think it's always done that but could be wrong.

Makai

Well then, screw what I said about org potions! Make Celest, Mag, and Seren have offensive then too! Either way, topic at hand is figuring out how so much bleeding is happening, and I think we've got all the factors now.

Synl

Just make all the potions give the new org affs on the next hit. Remove pyrotoxin and mactans. Ties into them being made with elemental essence, too. Done and done.

Makai

@Synl But my dream to make a character in Gaudi so I can org potion, dracnari racial, fireball candy ultra mega fireball jutsu! If we make it just apply a stack of burns, it's less fireball explodey!