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Melder Revamp

OraelOrael
edited May 2019 in Common Grounds
Hi,

 Below is the proposed plan for the base melding mechanics. If these seem reasonable, then we'll proceed by getting this part implemented. 

 While we're working on that, I'm going to start going over the skillsets. There isn't really any particular order I'm going to address them in, because this will likely all need to be implemented at once.

Nodes - 3-5 per melder. 
    - Nodes can be placed anywhere except adjacent to another node and melder/linked rooms.
    - Rooms between nodes will become terrained and melded upon new node being planted but only if the nodes are within 5 rooms of each other.
        - Will be the shortest path between two rooms
        - If multiple paths are available, the path will be randomly chosen
        - linked nodes will be stronger than unlinked nodes. (1.5x stronger)
    - Any node can be broken, and any linking between nodes will dissipate
        - Can be broken by killing the Avatar
            - Melder (and any bonded melders) will be notified when avatar attacked
            - Avatar disappears when Primary melder is in the node room.
        - Can be broken by an enemy melder using a 5s channel
            - Melder (and any bonded melders) notified when channel started
            - Primary melder going to the node will stop it (not bonded melders) if the melder is present in the room at the end.
            - Nothing else breaks the channel
      - Can be broken by killing the melder in the node room.


Effects - 
    - Effects fire in each node room and any linked room.
    - Protection scroll prevents effects in linked rooms, does not protect in node rooms.

Other melders
    - Other melders of the same spec can bond with a node
        - Increases Node strength by 10% per melder bonded.
    - Gain access to meld commands (ie demesnewatch, teleport and any other demesne abilities)
    - If primary melder dies, secondary melder becomes the holder (in order of bonding).
        - If no seconday melder, all nodes break.
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Comments

  • CoralineCoraline
    I like the option of secondary melder holding the node when the primary melder dies, so all the pressure doesn't have to rely on one melder.
    You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
  • SaranSaran
    1. What happens where an arti'd primary melder dies and the secondary doesn't have the melding artifacts?
    2. Will there be a "promote" option to force a secondary melder to the front of the line?
    3. Is Avatar strength static or relative to the primary melder?
    4. What is 1.5 and 10% stronger in more concrete terms? Damage and healing is easy, will it also be impacting procs, but there's also stuff where you get hit by an affliction or affliction list.
    5. Is the "stronger" limited to nodes? Something like pathtwist or currents is more about getting enemies to a node afaik.
    6. Is centre still a concept? Came up when thinking about the last one.
  • DeichtineDeichtine
            - Can be broken by an enemy melder using a 5s channel

    This could make some exceptionally hard to break with the variety of range and passive effects hitting the channeler.

    Would suggest making it a soft channel that isn't broken by curing or such.

    Avatar vanishing when melder enters the room as well. Does the avatar retain the damage its taken or does it magically vanish and heal back to full when the melder pops in and out?


    Being able to swap melders as well sounds a bit iffy to me. The concept sounds pretty strong defensivly and with the ability to hinder any breaking easily it sounds like this concept is a buff to the fortress meta. Shifting to an even bigger situation of no melder to break no chance to push in.

  • SynlSynl
    I dislike that the meld shifts to other allies when the 'primary' melder dies. Seems to really be doubling down on the fortress version of melds. If melds are easy to put up, ie. this node system, I'd much prefer they change hands regularly during a fight.

    I like that other melders can attach to the meld to use some abilities. This would be still be meld-type dependent though, right? Ie. no shamans using their abilities in a Geomeld, etc.?
  • OraelOrael
    Saran said:
    1. What happens where an arti'd primary melder dies and the secondary doesn't have the melding artifacts?
    2. Will there be a "promote" option to force a secondary melder to the front of the line?
    3. Is Avatar strength static or relative to the primary melder?
    4. What is 1.5 and 10% stronger in more concrete terms? Damage and healing is easy, will it also be impacting procs, but there's also stuff where you get hit by an affliction or affliction list.
    5. Is the "stronger" limited to nodes? Something like pathtwist or currents is more about getting enemies to a node afaik.
    6. Is centre still a concept? Came up when thinking about the last one.
    1) They'll be able to continue holding the meld, but they'll be unable to place more nodes unless it drops below their max allowed
    2) No, melders will have to un-bond and re-bond to set the right order
    3) Avatar strength is relative to primary melder and whether a node is linked or other melders bonded
    4) 1.5x and 10% is more relative to the defense of the node (ie, avatar having more hp, etc). Effects will likely be uniform throughout the meld
    5) Effects are not decided on yet but see 4
    6) No, there wouldn't really be a centre anymore, but we'll likely include a way to bounce around the nodes.

    Deichtine said:
            - Can be broken by an enemy melder using a 5s channel

    This could make some exceptionally hard to break with the variety of range and passive effects hitting the channeler.

    Would suggest making it a soft channel that isn't broken by curing or such.

    Avatar vanishing when melder enters the room as well. Does the avatar retain the damage its taken or does it magically vanish and heal back to full when the melder pops in and out?


    Being able to swap melders as well sounds a bit iffy to me. The concept sounds pretty strong defensivly and with the ability to hinder any breaking easily it sounds like this concept is a buff to the fortress meta. Shifting to an even bigger situation of no melder to break no chance to push in.


                - Primary melder going to the node will stop it (not bonded melders) if the melder is present in the room at the end.
                - Nothing else breaks the channel
    As already stated, only one thing stops the channel, the melder being there at the end. This means that you can work to defend your breaking melder as well as keeping the melder out of the room to let the channel complete.
     
    Avatar would retain damage taken.

    You don't need a melder to break, so there is never a 'no melder, no chance' situation. 

    I'll think about the passing the meld on to secondary melders. Sleeping on it, I think you and @Synl are right in that it reduces the risk of the melder being in the room (to stop the avatar bashing or the channel). There needs to be some risk/reward scenario there. 
  • MakaiMakai
    edited May 2019
    I like the idea of the meld passing down, but have my own idea of restriction. Since it is only being passed down to other bonded melders, all nodes currently not bonded should disappear/become inactive. So if say Melder A has the artifact and places 5 nodes, Melder B and C bond to two nodes and Melder A dies - then Melder B would inherit these two nodes. If this suggestion were go through, then perhaps the 'centre' we're used to could be reskinned to a 'master node' that has to be the last destroyed etc. So Melder B would inherit the 'master node' and the two bonded when A died, and repeat the process until all melders are gone.

    Edit: Also make the 'master node' not be able to be bonded to, that way there is no accidental overlap, giving benefit of the confusion to melder parties.
  • SaranSaran
    Makai said:
    I like the idea of the meld passing down, but have my own idea of restriction. Since it is only being passed down to other bonded melders, all nodes currently not bonded should disappear/become inactive. So if say Melder A has the artifact and places 5 nodes, Melder B and C bond to two nodes and Melder A dies - then Melder B would inherit these two nodes. If this suggestion were go through, then perhaps the 'centre' we're used to could be reskinned to a 'master node' that has to be the last destroyed etc. So Melder B would inherit the 'master node' and the two bonded when A died, and repeat the process until all melders are gone.

    Edit: Also make the 'master node' not be able to be bonded to, that way there is no accidental overlap, giving benefit of the confusion to melder parties.
    Leads to questions around secondary melders interactions with the node they join at.

    Do secondaries just join and that it as far as that node goes or is their connection tied into that particular node?

    If it's the latter, does that function as a limiter to the number of secondary melders? (i.e only one secondary per node) 
    Is their buff only to that node? Does killing that node remove the melder(s) tied to it?
  • MakaiMakai
    My understanding is that you could effectively have ten mages of same spec and nine link to nodes to grant the benefits. My suggestion would be to limit it and say that yes, one melder per node bond, otherwise this could get really out of hand.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited May 2019
    I'd take 10 of any other class to 10 melders. You'd reach kill conditions as quickly or even moreso than a melder.

    Class stacking is an inevitable shortcoming of all MUD combat, it seems like. Trying to limit melders where any mana drain class for example gets to stack (oops Aeromancers) is really strange to me.

    image
  • SaranSaran
    Makai said:
    My understanding is that you could effectively have ten mages of same spec and nine link to nodes to grant the benefits. My suggestion would be to limit it and say that yes, one melder per node bond, otherwise this could get really out of hand.
    The other questions are then seemingly relevant considerations, "get really out of hand" is vague if it's stacking buffs it seems far simpler to just put a cap on it.

    Also, I feel that the more relevant issue is that multiple melders are so pointless they have a sub-archetype to try to address that. Demesnes as a concept can go so far that they don't just stop others of your class from using their primaries but also melders from allied orgs. 
  • SynlSynl
    Maligorn said:
    I'd take 10 of any other class to 10 melders. You'd reach kill conditions as quickly or even moreso than a melder.

    Class stacking is an inevitable shortcoming of all MUD combat, it seems like. Trying to limit melders where any mana drain class for example gets to stack (oops Aeromancers) is really strange to me.
    To say that melding passing down the chain = class stacking is a bit disingenous though. Everyone seems on board with the 'can link to nodes to use some demesne abilities'. It's more the meld passing down the chain that has been spoken again. But 10 druids, for example, could still 'abuse stacking' with whatever active abilities we decide to give Druidry. 
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    I don't think it's disingenuous at all. I think those two things you describe are very similar to each other. Just my opinion.

    image
  • MakaiMakai
    edited May 2019
    Maligorn said:
    I'd take 10 of any other class to 10 melders. You'd reach kill conditions as quickly or even moreso than a melder.

    Class stacking is an inevitable shortcoming of all MUD combat, it seems like. Trying to limit melders where any mana drain class for example gets to stack (oops Aeromancers) is really strange to me.
    While true, I only brought up ten melders, since it is relevant to the conversation, as a way to instill a fortress of a ridiculous chain of meld owners. I don't actually see 10 Aeromancers being online at the same time, much less any kind of melder, was just a 'large' number to put in for how it could get out of hand.

    Speaking of that phrase, not sure how it is vague. If the multiplier happens for each bonded mage, then it would become a massive scaling problem and thus get out of hand. If it was limited then it would make more sense.

    If anything, I still want to maybe instead look at just having a maximum amount of node types in an area, such as five earth nodes. So if you have three Geomancers they could split the work of placing nodes quickly and get a shared meld put together. Perhaps bonding to a node lets them pick a meld effect to strengthen, giving validity to their primary. In the same example of three Geos, meld owner empowers tremors, melder b empowers poison, and melder c empower stonerain. These empowered effects could give stronger cc, more damage, amplified effects, whatever so long as it sticks to the original effect. Examples, lodestone could get both effects if empowered (strip levitate and prone) or poison also afflicting with sickening if empowered. Sure each melding primary would have its favored powers to make stronger, but that's already to be expected.

    Edit: Also, related to the original conversation, can we please have a system built-in that warns the melder when placing a node if it will not connect to any other nodes? Such as, place the first node and you walk off, whether you miscount or whatever, and place a node. It would be nice if it warned you that it will not connect when placing it, forcing a confirm like the other systems in place.
  • SynlSynl
    I just assumed you could only place nodes such that they would be linkable. Not be able to drop 5 separate nodes at 5 different entrances.
  • MakaiMakai
    That might be an accurate assumption, but since it hasn't been explicitly stated, doesn't hurt to request it.
  • SaranSaran
    Synl said:
    I just assumed you could only place nodes such that they would be linkable. Not be able to drop 5 separate nodes at 5 different entrances.
    Orael said:
    Hi,

     Below is the proposed plan for the base melding mechanics. If these seem reasonable, then we'll proceed by getting this part implemented. 

     While we're working on that, I'm going to start going over the skillsets. There isn't really any particular order I'm going to address them in, because this will likely all need to be implemented at once.

    Nodes - 3-5 per melder. 
        - Nodes can be placed anywhere except adjacent to another node and melder/linked rooms.
        - Rooms between nodes will become terrained and melded upon new node being planted but only if the nodes are within 5 rooms of each other.
            - Will be the shortest path between two rooms
            - If multiple paths are available, the path will be randomly chosen
            - linked nodes will be stronger than unlinked nodes. (1.5x stronger)
    Bolded seems to imply you can place them literally anywhere
  • SaranSaran
    Also, this seems to be increasingly complex in an attempt to both maintain the source of the problem (melds) and solve the problem (secondary melders aren't useful)
  • MakaiMakai
    @Saran What's your thoughts on my suggestion of shared meld?
  • OraelOrael
    To clarify, the bonding being proposed is too bond the meld as a whole, not individual nodes.

    I think the to compromise between things, if a melder is killed in a node room, that node will be broken as well.


    The rest of the nodes will transfer to the next melder, if there is no secondary melder, they'll all dissolve.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    This seems unnaturally complicated and unlikely to fix anything or make people want to be melders. Just my opinion.


    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SynlSynl
    Personally, I have no problem with current meld design. It's a niche class that won't appeal to everyone, but neither does any other class. That's kind of the point, specialized styles. The only reason I'm not a druid is because of druid-specific problems, not because of melding overall. This design is fine to me, it makes it possible, if not necessarily easier, to break a meld without having your own melder. I missed the whole thing where melding was deemed a problem/needing an overhaul though.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Synl said:
    I missed the whole thing where melding was deemed a problem/needing an overhaul though.
    Pretty much this, 
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Shaddus said:
    This seems unnaturally complicated and unlikely to fix anything or make people want to be melders. Just my opinion.


    That's kind of where I am on... well, just about all combat.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • OraelOrael
    There's certainly a portion of the player-base that disagrees with you.

    When we pushed back the melder revamp in favor of daily credits and timequakes, there were quite a few people incredibly upset with it. Plenty of people have lamented the state of melders and their issues. 

    As for the complexity here, it doesn't really seem too complex to me, it addresses some key issues while maintaining a focus on melder identity that's always been present.
  • MakaiMakai
    The pushback on the melder revamp was because it was something that kept being talked about to get done, and put later down on the docket. I'm not sure the actual melding mechanics are what people took issue with, but the effects and interactions with their peers. I could be wrong, though.
  • CrekCrek
    The mechanics were some nebulous thing that just had a few buzz words (nodes/leylines) without clear explanations beyond the brief testing done on Ianir's server.

    These changes don't sound horribly complicated in practice but it does feel like it will be harder to explain to non-melders/newbies than current melding already is.

    Withholding judgement on how it will work out until we see each meld flavor and how smoothly they function with this new system.
    The Divine voice of Ianir the Anomaly echoes in your head, "You are a ray of sunshine in a sea of 
    depression. I just wanted you to know that."
  • KalnidKalnid
    I definitely bitched about the mage revamp delays more because of the delays for what I saw as random indulgences than because a revamp was strictly necessary. Having ways to deal with a mage that isn't either bring your own or kill it is definite improvement though, and I think it's less complicated on the whole compared to current melding, maybe aside from leyline formation.
    I'm a little gunshy about the meld inheriting thing(maybe let leylines of the same class overlap instead? maybe that would be worse), and also a little gunshy about the 'you can't bash the avatar while the owner's in room'. Melder presence already blocks the faster route.
    Break channel being only 5s means it shouldn't be that hard to dodge meld ticks interrupting it, so that's good.
  • SaranSaran
    Makai said:
    @Saran What's your thoughts on my suggestion of shared meld?
    You've eliminated a potential use case (two melders melding around each other for greater coverage) for something that reads as complex. The issue as far as locking others out seems to really be melds themselves, modulating the effectiveness of the meld depending on secondary melders doesn't seem like it'll pan out for either variation.
  • SynlSynl
    Sorry, I didn't mean my statement as a jab or an otherwise snide remark. I literally was not present for the discussion/rants that took place that lead to wanting melding revamped. So I don't know what people's central issues with the melding system is. My problem is more that druids suck right now because allergies suck, sap sucks, etc.

    To recap: overall system = sure, no opinion one way or the other. Specific abilities = not a fan.

    I like the current system of melding, I also like this node system. I like this system more because of the changes like multiple melders being able to bond to a meld to use some abilities and the ease of melding (5 commands vs... however many currently).
  • SnaldSnald
    Sorry if this was already covered, would melders from different specs be able to work together in some way? For example a druid and an aquamancer? Also how would the way chem/woods mesh with melders change?
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