Mage Revamp

Orael

Greetings,

 As you all know, the mage revamp is the next on our agenda. I've gone over the preliminary stuff and discussed a bit with Ianir where we're at and wanted to share the base melding principles with you.

 The goal is to make base melding easier on the melder but introduce more counterplay. This should reduce the reliance on melders, but still leave them as assets.

The system focuses on 'leylines' over traditional melding. Melders would be creating these leylines.

 Instead of melding each individual room, melders will instead choose node rooms. Each melder can have 3-5 nodes available (runes of demesne increase the number of nodes). Upon placing a node, every room on the shortest path to any other node within 5 (or more?) rooms will become melded. 

Node rooms will have stronger effects than non-node rooms. Effects on nodes will bypass protection automatically while effects on the meld lines will be weaker and be blocked by protection

Only Node rooms would breakable. There would be two ways to break them, one by the normal method of a melder breaking it. The other would be to slay an Avatar of the melder, a high-health, crit-immune avatar that defends each node. Destroying the avatar would also break the node.  Once broken, all the rooms in between it and the other nodes would also be broken.  Other than that, the weaker rooms would be unbreakable. 

A few notes - an enemy node placed in between two nodes would block the leyline from forming, but a leyline will prevent a node from being placed between them. 

At this point, I'd like to know your thoughts, ideas, etc. This is just the base melding plan, and the effects would be for each individual spec. I'm wondering if protection scroll needs adjusting at all. 

This is the first step of the revamp, making sure all this stuff is in place. Once we have this base set, we can then move on to the individual specs.

Ayisdra

First thoughts were about what more than 1 paths are shortest and the same length. Would both lines become melded or would it randomly choose or can the melder manually pick which? Similarly when playing an enemy node on one of the shortest paths, would it still meld the other short path of same length?

Like current melds, would these new leyline melds be able to be broken into two separate pieces or would the Avatar be immune to death if it would cause the meld to be broken into two parts? As for the Avatar itself, would this be a basic mob or would it have resistances and defs of the melder in question?

Orael

If there is more than one node within range, then it would form leylines to both. 

An enemy node would only stop the one. 

We would probably only have the avatar at breakable nodes. I imagine we want to keep the one meld mechanics. The Avatar would likely have similar resistances to the caster.

Ayisdra

I meant something more like:

<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; /&nbsp;&nbsp; \<br>[N]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [N]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; \&nbsp;&nbsp; /<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [2]<br></div>

If I have nodes at both Ns, how would it work with melding rooms 1 and 2? And with playing an enemy node at just one of those rooms.

Orael

1 and 2 would become melded. 

A node would be unable to be placed.

If a node stopped one, the other would still go.

Maligorn

I think mages and druids will need to be able to use their terrain-affecting skill as a LoS ability (with an appropriate power cost) for this sort of melding. So if I need to make a certain leyline in a straight line, I can AEROCAST CONDENSATE NE 3 for 3p and then make two nodes at each end. I think this would also assist in making melding feel more dynamic. The presence of an enemy leyline or node should make the LoS impossible, though.

EDIT: Loving the tag, by the way.

Are you looking to make node-breaking via a melder a channeled action? When you break an enemy node you're not just breaking a room of effects, but possibly a whole network. I definitely think it shouldn't be a walk in and hit your force<thing>. Also a ripe opportunity for flavor lines between all the six types of melding overcoming each others' avatars (wyrding a Hartstone elemental, that kind of thing).

Dys

I'm wondering about the cost to put up a node Vs the cost to take down an avatar. How high is high health for the avatar? Assuming all demi, like 5 balances worth of hits?

One mage can counter another melder so do you need two or more people meld-countering as non-mages. If it's a lot then it's not worth taking down the node in the room, if the mage will just put it up again in a balance. Maybe taking it down by avatar killing could add a cool down before that room can be melded again.

I might be thinking about this wrong if the intention is that the melder would still be king in the one node room they're defending, but avatar killing makes it possible to take down the undefended nodes around that.

Saran

Would terraining actually be a thing any more? Or would the leylines/nodes just set the terrain of the relevant rooms to the appropriate type?

What happens in the following meld? Is the moonhart unbreakable until three of the green nodes are taken down? Or does taking it down basically wipe the whole meld?

Makai

I don't know if it'll fill in the area based on the description, but I was curious about that as well. Not arguing with you, because I really want it to be the way you have shown, but that's just not how it reads to me. It reads to me as follows:

Top north nodes would find a shortest path to each other, thus:

SE, E, NE, SE, NE, SE, E, NE to make a bridge
SE, S, SE, SE, S, SW to make a bridge

NE, N, E, E, S, SE to make a bridge

NW, N, NE, NE, N, NE for the final bridge

Saran

Makai said:

I don't know if it'll fill in the area based on the description, but I was curious about that as well. Not arguing with you, because I really want it to be the way you have shown, but that's just not how it reads to me. It reads to me as follows:

Top north nodes would find a shortest path to each other, thus:

SE, E, NE, SE, NE, SE, E, NE to make a bridge
SE, S, SE, SE, S, SW to make a bridge

NE, N, E, E, S, SE to make a bridge

NW, N, NE, NE, N, NE for the final bridge

The yellow one is also a node, differentiated only because it's potentially "unbreakable".

The four green nodes are all more than five rooms away from each other so are all drawing one line back to the yellow node. The bottom two don't link either but draw three paths back to the node like this.



If the central node can be broken then it removes all leylines in the meld with one action from a melder and x from non-mages.

If you can't break the node (cause it would leave disconnected nodes) enemies would need to break the four outer nodes before they could take down the central one.

They have different melding strategies and the potential leyline length comes into it.

Makai

Makes more sense knowing that was center a node, just figured since it was a different color it was something different. I would think it would have the same properties as current melds, where you can't have unconnected stragglers, so that would be a nice layout.

EDIT: Alternatively, not related to your query, Saran, what if nodes just radiated an area of control? So lets say you place a node and it radiates outwards for 5 rooms? If another node would overlap the area, could be a strong area so have the increased meld effects.

Orael

The node would be unbreakable if it would cause a demesne to separate, just like unbreakable rooms today are. That was asked and answered earlier.


As far as breaking. 

 I skipped a bit of Ianir's explanation when posting (it was late last night in my defense). The breaking would be a channeled action and the melder would be alerted. He could prevent the breaking by going to the node, and his presence would stop that breaking. 

 The Avatars would be higher health, and they would be slower than a mage takes to remeld. The idea being that we want counterplay, but not to the point it makes melds pointless. It should be more effective to have a melder on your team, but you should still be able to compete without one.

Saran

What about multiple melders on the same team?

Orael

What about them?

Makai

I'm not sure I'd want melders able to share nodes to make a super meld, as awesome as that would be in honesty. I like where this is going though! Maybe instead of increasing total nodes (by having multiple melders) they could have an ability to bond to a planted node of their type to either increase the avatar health, or make it a longer channel to break? This would limit melds to 5 total nodes of a type in the area and if there were 5 melders of that type, could all bond to a node. Could even be that if a bonded melder that isn't the owner instead has the same effect of canceling the meld break if they are present like the owner.

Coraline

Is it still going to be if a melder dies all their meld is gone?

Saran

Orael said:

What about them?

Anything really.

I heard one rumour ages ago that another melder of the same type could contribute a single node to the network, for example, possibly with the ability to transfer control or some other benefit. This could mean a second melder might be able make use of their primary in some meaningful fashion and could mean potentially more nodes in a single meld than just the 5 mentioned.

Which loops into stuff like why we have woodchems in the first place.

Kalnid

I'm a little leery about relying on gameside pathfinding for this but it's not like we don't rely on it for everything else so whatever, not as though I've got a reason for it.

Am I reading it right that the amount of stuff prot blocks would be increased off nodes?

Are avatars planned to attack back or just soak and empower demesne effects?

Keegan

This looks awesome awesome awesome

Orael

I discussed things with Ianir more and I'm going to backtrack on some of the things I previously said.

When there are two equal paths between nodes, only one path will be selected randomly.  The reason for this is because we want melders to consciously and strategically decide where to place nodes to get the effect and coverage they want. We want to limit how many rooms you can feasibly have melded. Thinking about it more, I think this is likely the better way to go.

As for multiple melders on the same team, I don't think allowing more nodes is a good idea, considering the above. I do like the idea of having bonded nodes though, that allow other melders to take advantage of certain aspects (demesne watch, center, teleport etc) and defend the meld. The meld could be handed off to the bonded melder on the primary melders death.

Avatars I think would just soak the damage. They wouldn't really attack back.

I don't know if saying protection blocking would be increased is accurate, it'd be different in that on nodes, protection doesn't do anything and off-nodes protection would block everything.

Shango

Avatars remain killable even if the primary meld holder is in the same room, yes? Part of the initial spitballing was that it'd be unkillable if in the same room.

Shango

Also effects, will Sap be removed now, replaced with something else? Stonerain changed to not hit allies anymore for rubble? Are the effects for the melds being changed up with this aside from the base mechanics? Believe that there was talk of sets of effects specific to noded, and non-noded rooms, to differentiate them. Though if Scroll of Protection is useless in the noded rooms, that trumps the suggestion for different effects?

And how will this effect the various chem/wood alternatives? Can they still benefit from nodes planted as well in some fashion?

Shango

Also for the case of tertiaries, fusing runes and embedding dream motes, how will that work with this new system? Room by room, or like....a series of them imbued into the node to effect rooms created along the leylines a bit more randomly/all at once to a max number per node?

Orael

At this point, I want to get the base melding system down first. Once that is solid, we can move on to effects for each individual spec, secondaries and tertiaries. 

There's two ways we can go with effects. 

1) We can just have the same effects throughout the meld, the difference being node vs non-node and how protection effects them.

2) We can have strong and weak effects. Strong effects only fire in the node rooms and weak effects fire in each room, but are blocked by protection in non-node rooms.

I'm not sure I like 2 because there's already going to be an emphasis on node rooms given they're the ones that need breaking, no protection, etc. Non-node rooms having less and weaker effects increases that reliance on node rooms much more, so by going with 1, you're still weaker in a non-node room, but you have ways to getting around it.

I think we can make the Avatars unkillable (or even disappear) when the mage holding it is in the room. We'll have to consider how that works with bonding mages though.

Drastrath

Orael said:

I think we can make the Avatars unkillable (or even disappear) when the mage holding it is in the room. We'll have to consider how that works with bonding mages though.

Wouldn't this make it too strong? It would be like a bard having an unbreakable octave. This would make being the first to a room and having a mage more important than they are currently. Maybe, make a common skill with a power cost to make the Avatar targetable such as reality check? 

Orael

Drastrath said:

Orael said:

I think we can make the Avatars unkillable (or even disappear) when the mage holding it is in the room. We'll have to consider how that works with bonding mages though.

Wouldn't this make it too strong? It would be like a bard having an unbreakable octave. This would make being the first to a room and having a mage more important than they are currently. Maybe, make a common skill with a power cost to make the Avatar targetable such as reality check? 

But you have the melder there instead to attack. 

You'd have a few options at that point, move the melder out to bring the Avatar back (or vulnerable again), or kill the melder.

Drastrath

Orael said:

Drastrath said:

Orael said:

I think we can make the Avatars unkillable (or even disappear) when the mage holding it is in the room. We'll have to consider how that works with bonding mages though.

Wouldn't this make it too strong? It would be like a bard having an unbreakable octave. This would make being the first to a room and having a mage more important than they are currently. Maybe, make a common skill with a power cost to make the Avatar targetable such as reality check? 

But you have the melder there instead to attack. 

You'd have a few options at that point, move the melder out to bring the Avatar back (or vulnerable again), or kill the melder.

Same situation with a bard, you have the bard there to kill or can move them out or have a bard remove octave or truehear to avoid the octave. Since the node will hit through protection then literally the only counterplay is gust or target which is hard considering cement boots (as well as other rooting) and being salted. Also, the mage would only need to step out heal(reset) walk back in the node is "hidden" again. Does the node Regen or does it stay weakened from any hits landed while the mage stepped out?

I would suggest making the node more difficult to kill with the mage in the room not impossible. This could be easily adjusted as well.

Edit: Fixed error

Makai

Kind of hype to hear about bonded nodes. As for the avatar, I'm fine with them just being damage soak, as that room is already 'strong' to have all the melds effects and bypasses protection scroll. That being said, perhaps instead of it choosing a path randomly, let the melders command the pathway? Such as (forgive me, using Geomancer) GEOCAST LINK NODE1 TO NODE2. Or perhaps limit it to a few nodes (4 total with Rune) and treat them as border corners. Any room within those borders is considered melded. Can make it still limit to 5 rooms of reach from node to node to keep the area small.

Shaddus

What will this do with chemwoods?

Deichtine

Bards octave goes down very quickly after forcing them to run.

Would a mages mega node be similar in that you could make the mage run and then kill it in a tick if they dash off?

Orael

No, it would take more than just a tick.

They really aren't comparable to bards. Octave and melds function much differently, so we're not going to treat them the same.

Chemwoods would still operate the same at this point, this is only regarding melders.