Reducing the Number of Player Orgs

Coraline

Maybe if we can have an option which will show people as "Busy" on who for people who don't want to be bothered. But even otherwise, I feel like even if cloaking gems are kept as is, and newbies can see other people on all the planes, it would still make a significant difference (without making the people who bought cloaking gems feel bad)

Enadonella

I know this has been talked about before in some way or another. But having -just- RP divine where they aren't expected to do all of that 'work' (yes I know RP is still work...kinda)  behind the scenes might contribute to more player interaction and population retention/increase. Especially if you focused them in the orgs that (check your statistics) have low pop/pop retention. 

It really is just a lack of activity. There are people. They are just so into their little cliques that they don't engage with new people or others. It is really exclusive in some orgs. and incredibly hard to break into those groups and be accepted as a part of the main org's clique. 

Esoneyuna

Coraline said:

Maybe if we can have an option which will show people as "Busy" on who for people who don't want to be bothered. But even otherwise, I feel like even if cloaking gems are kept as is, and newbies can see other people on all the planes, it would still make a significant difference (without making the people who bought cloaking gems feel bad)

Or we could just remove that you see player names without thirdeye. Only the:
 Currently, there are 2 Citizens on visible Planes and 2 on other Planes.
and
 (*) Currently, there are 6 Lusternians on this plane and 15 on other planes.

I mean if the problem is that people confuse the name list for who is actually about, removing the name list would also fix that issue. 

The big problem you are introducing with showing people who are not on the same plane for novices is, that unless they are talking on newbie or collegium, they might not be heard on aethers or might not reach the person with tells (are tells planar skill limited, I always trans before I remember to try it). So it needs to be in the very least restricted to people you can actually talk to.

Xenthos

Tells are indeed planar-limited.  I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to do something where if you send a tell to someone you can see on CWHO / QW, but don't have the planar to tell them, the system says "You don't have enough planar to send a tell, try a message instead" (instead of the "To whom do you wish to tell?" thing it does).

Enya

The question wasn't (or should not have been) "what is the  benefit to you?" but "what is the benefit to the game?" 

Coraline

Esoneyuna said:

Coraline said:

Maybe if we can have an option which will show people as "Busy" on who for people who don't want to be bothered. But even otherwise, I feel like even if cloaking gems are kept as is, and newbies can see other people on all the planes, it would still make a significant difference (without making the people who bought cloaking gems feel bad)

Or we could just remove that you see player names without thirdeye. Only the:
 Currently, there are 2 Citizens on visible Planes and 2 on other Planes.
and
 (*) Currently, there are 6 Lusternians on this plane and 15 on other planes.

I mean if the problem is that people confuse the name list for who is actually about, removing the name list would also fix that issue. 

The big problem you are introducing with showing people who are not on the same plane for novices is, that unless they are talking on newbie or collegium, they might not be heard on aethers or might not reach the person with tells (are tells planar skill limited, I always trans before I remember to try it). So it needs to be in the very least restricted to people you can actually talk to.

I do agree with this. No being able to be heard/talk to people on other planes is also another problem imo. I remember, as a newbie, feeling helpless for not being able to reply to people who saw me in trouble and were asking if I needed help (I did, but I couldn't tell them. I could message them, yes but still).

And for a long time I thought people could hear me from prime when they said hi from Astral, and only 3-4 months into playing when someone pointed it out to me that I realized they couldn't hear me. I've never experienced this myself, but a newbie could think someone from Astral was ignoring them.

Xenthos

Coraline said:

And for a long time I thought people could hear me from prime when they said hi from Astral, and only 3-4 months into playing when someone pointed it out to me that I realized they couldn't hear me. I've never experienced this myself, but a newbie could think someone from Astral was ignoring them.

This happens regularly.  I have omniscience so I point out to newbies when they are talking and can't be heard by the bulk of people (because we're on Astral or on a bubble), and suggest they speak on the Collegium (because that bypasses planar restrictions).

Coraline

New Mega Event that destroys all the Planes and everything implodes to form one Plane? :P 

Destroy Planes, not orgs!!

Ayisdra

Esoneyuna said:

Coraline said:

Maybe if we can have an option which will show people as "Busy" on who for people who don't want to be bothered. But even otherwise, I feel like even if cloaking gems are kept as is, and newbies can see other people on all the planes, it would still make a significant difference (without making the people who bought cloaking gems feel bad)

Or we could just remove that you see player names without thirdeye. Only the:
 Currently, there are 2 Citizens on visible Planes and 2 on other Planes.
and
 (*) Currently, there are 6 Lusternians on this plane and 15 on other planes.

I mean if the problem is that people confuse the name list for who is actually about, removing the name list would also fix that issue. 

The big problem you are introducing with showing people who are not on the same plane for novices is, that unless they are talking on newbie or collegium, they might not be heard on aethers or might not reach the person with tells (are tells planar skill limited, I always trans before I remember to try it). So it needs to be in the very least restricted to people you can actually talk to.

While I disagree with the idea, a lot of novices have expressed the 'X on other planes' is pointless and those people might be not signed in at all. For a lot of people, they look at the names on the who list as a judgement for how active something is and ignore the total number. That seeing 3-4 people (even if 20-30 people may be signed on) makes them think the game is dead.

Makai

Perhaps a far more simple solution, make WHO and QWHO work like CWHO in a sense. This way it only removes people in bubbles and manses from the 'visible' list, still respecting cloaking gems. For the numbers, it is still a count of all players, including cloaked ones, so you can see the 'active' amount without having to change artifacts.

Edit: For clarity, since reading back I can understand some muddle - Have WHO and QWHO show all players on all planes, except bubbles and manses, while still respecting the cloaking gem. CWHO was only mentioned because that's how it functions, but bypasses cloaking.

Jolanthe

This is pretty much the core reason why I've never purchased a cloaking gem. Seems bad on principle.

Xenthos

Makai said:

Perhaps a far more simple solution, make WHO and QWHO work like CWHO in a sense. This way it only removes people in bubbles and manses from the 'visible' list, still respecting cloaking gems. For the numbers, it is still a count of all players, including cloaked ones, so you can see the 'active' amount without having to change artifacts.

This is essentially EWHO.  EWHO right now:

You sense the following people:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         Esri - sloping evergreens
         Gabe - a cluttered chamber behind the curtains
         Iove - on the upper deck of the Pool of Stars
     Jolanthe - a stock room
        Keahi - the Bridge of Knowledge
       Keegan - before the Matrix
     Kharazin - quiet study in the Necropolis
       Ourina - the Banquet Hall
     Verdonne - before the Matrix
      Xenthos - before the Master Ravenwood Tree
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(*) Currently, there are 10 Lusternians on this plane and 17 on other planes.</code>You sense the following people:<br>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ainetra - Postal Services of Erudio&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [AETHERWAYS]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Barendur - Pool of Stars&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp; CELESTIA]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Esri - sloping evergreens&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Faragan - A Diamond Observatory&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [AETHERWAYS]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Gabe - a cluttered chamber behind the curtains&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Iove - on the upper deck of the Pool of Stars&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ishra - A chilling, forestal curiosities room&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [AETHERWAYS]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jolanthe - a stock room&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Keahi - the Bridge of Knowledge&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Keegan - before the Matrix&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Kharazin - quiet study in the Necropolis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Kish - glossy rocks caressed by cascading water&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp; GODREALM]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Koln - in the fae night garden&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [AETHERWAYS]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Malikusog - the Great Starry Sea&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WATER]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ourina - the Banquet Hall&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Verdonne - before the Matrix&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Xenthos - before the Master Ravenwood Tree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRIME]<br>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>(*) Currently, there are 17 Lusternians.</pre>WHO right now:<div><pre class="CodeBlock"><code>

(Nobody bother that Magnagoran on Water please!)

Edit: Editing for formatting.

Makai

The cloaking gem is almost a necessity if you're a known quester or someone who partakes in combat. As it was stated earlier, "If they can't see my name, they won't think to scry me." There are so many quests that are simply stopped by the most mild of counteractions that ruin it. Honestly, if these things were made uninterruptable then sure, I'd get rid of the cloaking gem, but that would do more damage to the game than good.

Lavinya

Makai said:

The cloaking gem is almost a necessity if you're a known quester or someone who partakes in combat. As it was stated earlier, "If they can't see my name, they won't think to scry me." There are so many quests that are simply stopped by the most mild of counteractions that ruin it. Honestly, if these things were made uninterruptable then sure, I'd get rid of the cloaking gem, but that would do more damage to the game than good.

I bought mine to stop certain people trying to jump me every time I left my org, because I was an easy kill (Nataely is one name that first comes to mind). I have no issue with my name being on a list without my location being revealed. A simple players currently online with a list of names, no further information. Then leave the current who lists the same with who can you detect and where. Sure, it means people can look at who online, then see that a name is missing, so maybe they're on a bubble or manse afk or something and go look for them, but I'm really not worried about it.

As Xenthos brought up, I don't like the idea of making the present power of the scrying mirror freely available and thus nerfing it. If that happened I would ask for a refund, yes. No need to go over the top, i disagreed, it doesn't make me some sort of crazy person (Also side lol about bringing up disagree 'bombing' because someone flagged a disagree, the flags are gone you win, let the flag that no longer exists or can be seen go already.)

Xenthos

Saying "Lavinya wanted a refund" isn't going over the top or calling you a crazy person, by the by.  Not sure where you got that from.  Our disagreement is that it doesn't make the present power of the mirror freely available, though (which I also mentioned).

Coraline

Is this all referring to a discord conversation?

Makai

Game changes are not discussed on the discord, at all. It is a thread here on the forums. Admin are just there merely to enjoy their time off and have discussions, and whatever players that opt in want to talk about is spoken about. Nothing from that server is just taken as a change and tossed in.

Synl

The whole thing is kind of a sidetrack anyways. I think having a visible population will feel good, even if it may not actually do anything. And I don't think being able to hide so you can do contentious quests (shouldn't confrontation be something you look forward to with that situation, like that's the point of an RPG?) Is a reasonable trade for making the population feel diminished.

Makai

I didn't realize every quest was a contentious quest. There are petty people, who will do whatever it takes to stop you from completing the quest, regardless which it is. Displaying every single person online isn't going to fix population problems. Your CWHO and GWHO already bypass cloaking gems and you can see people that are in manses on the Other count as well. Visibility of names isn't going to suddenly make people stick around. We already have the tools you're wanting for population visibility, doesn't need to be made a global effect without said artifact.

Coraline

I literally said that two people I invited to play said that it "looked empty and lonely". One of them said people in Celest weren't responding to her questions on CT, and now I think it might have been because of the Planar issue (because I don't think they would purposely ignore newbies, from what interactions I've had with them)

Synl

I have a hard time believing the idea that more player visibility won't increase new player retention. If I'm thinking of going to an event, my likelihood of going increases the more people are confirmed attending. If I have to pick between a gameday (mtg event) to which 10 people are going and a magicfest (a larger mtg event) where 200 people are going, there's no way you'll catch me at the gameday. Like. When you go to a party and there's only five people there, are you not instantly turned off the whole idea? Like I said, I don't know if it will help. But I think it will based on every other experience in my life.

Makai

Again, you have all the visibility you truthfully need within your own org. Seeing other org's population isn't going to make you suddenly stick around either. Timezones and availability are everything, as we're seeming to figure out. All that does is show them, "Hey, I clearly joined the wrong org." and thus they leave. As for the Planar skillranks, that could be looked at sure, such as treat anybody under the 31st level OR yet to graduate the collegium with honours, and let them be heard over the city/commune aether as if it was the collegium channel itself. Technically it is what the collegium is for, but it doesn't seem to get used my new player as much as it really should.

Edit: Just change the Collegium auto-welcome message to include that others may not hear them otherwise, so please use CGT for any questions.

Enya

Makai said:

Again, you have all the visibility you truthfully need within your own org. 

But new players don't necessarily make that distinction. 

Makai

So you're okay with when they look at CWHO and see only 2 people including themselves, but can see 12 people in Celest, so they ditch you and move there? That sounds entirely unhealthy to the population distribution, simply because that visibility exists.

Xenthos

Makai said:

So you're okay with when they look at CWHO and see only 2 people including themselves, but can see 12 people in Celest, so they ditch you and move there? That sounds entirely unhealthy to the population distribution, simply because that visibility exists.

While I do understand what you're saying, I do have to ask: Is it preferable that the person quit the game because they see only 2 people on CWHO and nobody anywhere else, or that they stick around and keep playing (no matter where they keep playing)?  I'd rather that the person stick around somewhere than just go away entirely.

Makai

Sure, I can agree to that, but again, its all purely time based. We truthfully don't need global visibility of 'who' the people are, just the number seems to be important in all this, which we have. Every example so far has been determined by the visible number, not listed names of atendees.

Synl

The way the human brain perceives things like 'there are three people here' and 'Moe, Larry, and Curly are here' is different. Even a difference between 3 and three really. It's cool stuff.

Makai

To do this change renders one of two artifacts pointless, or at the least, not worth the full value anymore. Either the scrying mirror loses the point of using it because everyone is always visible (except location with gem) or the point of removing your name from gem is nulled. If the people who joined the game don't see people, it may very well be when they can play the game too. While certainly we should try to retain any player that joins this game, this isn't the way or fix. Either people don't want to be bothered, followed, interacted with, whatever reason they buy the gem, that should be equally respected.

Enadonella

I think a previous idea, one I have suggested a few times myself amongst friends helps to resolve this. Install something like covenants for alliances. Player run. So when alliance shifts are made the covenants can be changed as needed. Make CGT the covenant aether so org aether stays somewhat private. This will ensure that you have (for now, until they make the really bad decision of blowing up orgs) 3 orgs capable of addressing noobs and the aether reaches everywhere so no reason for anyone not to hear anyone. 

While I appreciate the experience of Coraline's friends. My own have never seemingly had that complaint and they all play at about 7pm in Australia/NZ. Which is the quietest time in Lusternia. As someone who does not keep a regular routine and plays at any given time and I am often logged in for over 48 hours at a time, realistically it is almost weeks at a time, I don't see this as a problem in player retention so much as what they do complain about is the lack of participation in their being there. They did not feel included. There is no arti nerf for that. Players have to change how they welcome new characters into their organisations.  

Shango

Whole reason I bothered to buy the Cloaking Gem myself...people kept being pains when I'd do quests or try to help others. The pettiness IS real, very much so. If you made it so their names showed in QW but not WHO (thus a free, balanceless scry as that shows the exact room they're in), maybe it'd be a valid move. But....generally these changes go in, they're sweeping. So one ought to take that into consideration when making such suggestions. Why bother scrying, or even buying the Farscout artifact, when this proposal lets me do WHO and I'll see where everyone is regardless. Wouldn't even need a Nose at that point in fact...