Do you think we should remove OOC clans from Lusternia?

Vatul

This came up in a discussion in how OOC clans can be more detrimental then they are a positive experience. There are some negatives for removing OOC clans, there's more sense of companionship outside of game, and a place where friends can talk etc.

It can be a way to organize synergy and help novices who don't know how to manage what roleplay is just yet. Yet, OOC clans can be a hotbed of contention and player conflict that permeates into actual gameplay interactions, if they are not handled correctly then they might dissolve into cultivating some bad habits.

OOC in general has always been tough, especially with this being a game with heavy RP. But the broader question of OOC in general echoes questions of player immersion and personal preference. Some people like it, some people don't. However, does that take away from Lusternia's purpose at its core? What do you guys think? Should we remove OOC clans from Lusternia?

Obviously the topic can turn broad, which is the purpose of the poll to lead to a questioning of how we can improve on where OOC is right now with our playerbase. Also, maybe taking a look at our OOC policies, and how they might limited or changed so we improve on drawing more enrichment out of non-OOC interaction.

Discuss!

Synl

How do you determine if a clan is ooc or not? are you looking for divine to personally moderate each clan with members over x amount?

Saz

In my personal experience OOC clans, for whatever purpose they have, break immersion. They make me feel more like I'm in a chatroom than playing a character that's part of an unreal story in an alien world.

Shaddus

Admin have enough to deal with without having to deal with ooc clans. If you don't feel like you're immersed enough, turn the clan off.

Coraline

You can choose not to join the OOC clans imo. Also I feel like if I needed to ask an OOC question to a number of people, it'll be a problem if such channels weren't there

Kagato

Voting no - Admin resources are already stretched as is, given that the majority are volunteers and are usually committing what time they have to other things like bug reports, issues, etc without also needing to moderate/approve clans on top of that.  People can decide for themselves if they want to be part of a clan by joining/leaving.

Lycidas

Also, other means of OOC chatter exist and will continue to exist that can't be moderated anyway by admins. Also, what people do with their gold investment (buying of a clan) is their business. If they want to have a personal tailoring cartel that is also used for shooting the breeze OOC, so what? If the problem is that OOC clans are just so prominent and cause immersion breaking, here's my list of things to tackle:

1) Is there a way to talk about it IC? If no, let's find a way (ie daily credits, triggers, etc)
2) If there is a way, enforce it
3) Convert OOC clan into IC clan

But Discord, Skype, Mumble, Ventrilo, TeamSpeak whatever is going to exist for those that still want an OOC medium. Heck, have your IC city clan have a CLHELP DISCORD or whatever to link them to the OOC chatter and make it known that it is an available resource. But mandating that OOC policies change won't really affect the game, just forces a change of location.

Vatul

Synl said:

How do you determine if a clan is ooc or not? are you looking for divine to personally moderate each clan with members over x amount?

Well, the point is if they should be removed. Not to add extra work for admin. There are plenty of ooc clans around. Determining them would be fairy easy. OOC would generate elsewhere and leave the RP to develop without interference. 

Rancoura

I believe what is needed more than outright banning is self-policing by the players who participate in OOC clans and other OOC channels. I understand the need for convenient methods of discussing mechanics and other things that would be awkward or cumbersome to try to discuss IC, but I start to see and experience major issues when things like politics and other organizational matters are discussed in OOC channels rather than in the channels already provided IC -- where those who would prefer to avoid OOC would be able to participate in such discussions or otherwise be aware that they have taken place. Personally, I would rather not be in any OOC channels save perhaps one that is reserved for mechanics-talk, and keep my immersion as intact as it can be.

As I've mentioned before elsewhere as well, I do feel that the social aspect of OOC channels takes away from IC social interaction and therefore further immersion, but again, this comes down to self-policing.

Lycidas

I agree that self-policing OOC channels is the correct route, as if you are experiencing an OOC clan being used for IC interactions and just bypassing it, call it out. But I know I've seen it be kind of a cue that they might be approached soon, and go into IC. But, again, if you see OOC clans doing IC stuff, nip in the bud rather than change how the system works.

Synl

I'm all for cutting down on OOC clans, or removing them. I definitely see and am 'guilty' of using them to find tradesmen etc. That said... there is no solution here. Because the admins aren't going to start policing and shutting down OOC clans. So. Vote your opinion, but don't expect anything to come of it.

Steingrim

Synl said:

I'm all for cutting down on OOC clans, or removing them. I definitely see and am 'guilty' of using them to find tradesmen etc. That said... there is no solution here. Because the admins aren't going to start policing and shutting down OOC clans. So. Vote your opinion, but don't expect anything to come of it.

I also think that is a bit overly simplistic as we have both tells, messages, and letters. Let's not think if ooc clans are removed we'll see a sharp increase of bands of Council members crossing the Basin to ask to parlay with an equally large group of opposing Council members.

I think the immersion 'issue' is more red herring than not. We're playing a game where you get daily credits and the command is dailycredits and I suspect few have any idea what a credit would be IC ... immersion has to be more top down than bottom up.

This is a game where we have Weeky Pedia, if your immersion is broken by people not yourself being in ooc clans you're fighting a battle that you not only cannot win, but one for where there is no win to win.


Or put another way, play the game the way you want to play. If your way is wrong, perhaps the way others play also is not wrong. Not everyone enjoys hanging out at the nexus. I for one will never understand how people can handle being the aetherplex without feeling like a creep. Not everyone interacts the way you do, it is better to have more ways to interact and let people use the ones they are comfortable with.

Devora

Rancoura said:

I start to see and experience major issues when things like politics and other organizational matters are discussed in OOC channels rather than in the channels already provided IC -- where those who would prefer to avoid OOC would be able to participate in such discussions or otherwise be aware that they have taken place. 

This is a really important point. OOC channels have done a lot of good, but I also think they're what we're used to in life in general, and so it's easy to only use those channels. That's a huge loss of what Lusternia has to offer.

We're great at self-policing IC channels. We should definitely be doing the same for OOC channels. When you ask a lore question on an OOC channel, someone could say, thanks for asking, that's an awesome question, but that would be better suited for an IC channel. Especially since hardcore RPers are more likely to have the OOC channel off.

Another workaround - kind of clunky but possibly better than nothing - would be an in-between clan (IB clan). People who do not want the OOC clan on all the time join the IB clan and keep that on. Many OOC people are in the IB clan too. When an important discussion is going on in the OOC clan, an OOC person could drop a line in the IB clan, eg: Mage overhaul being discussed in OOC. Then the IC folks in IB could decide if they want to join in the chat. No idea if this would work, it would have to be tried out, but I would imagine the IB clan would be much, much quieter and better than being forced to choose all or nothing.

Devora

Vatul said:

Also, maybe taking a look at our OOC policies, and how they might limited or changed so we improve on drawing more enrichment out of non-OOC interaction. 

Discuss!

Could you elaborate on this? Limit or change them in what way? I haven't heard suggestions like that yet and am curious.

Snald

To me, Lusternia is what you make it. So if you want to make it a game where you can go and chat about your day at work or whatever in a private clan, then that's your prerogative.

Vatul

Devora said:

Vatul said:

Also, maybe taking a look at our OOC policies, and how they might limited or changed so we improve on drawing more enrichment out of non-OOC interaction. 

Discuss!

Could you elaborate on this? Limit or change them in what way? I haven't heard suggestions like that yet and am curious.

It was more of a suggestion to see what people thought if we wanted to look at OOC policies or not. RP Rewards via the other thread would likely be a better course of action seeing the results from this poll.

I just wanted to test the waters and see how people felt about OOC clans in general and what OOC does for the game.

Everiine

I'm split on this. On the one hand, I like small OOC clans or OOC clans with a distinct purpose. The Silvermoon family OOC clan has just a few people, and it's good to just talk sometimes. An OOC clan with a distinct purpose can be helpful, i.e. the old Viridian Rangers clan in the Serenguard that was just a clan to discuss combat mechanics--any other discussion was directed to either appropriate channels (for IC discussion) or answered in OOC tells.

On the other hand, I'm generally opposed to large, no-purpose OOC clans where anything and everything is talked about with little guidance or direction. I don't find them helpful, and I agree that far too much actual IC work is done in OOC clans (based on my short experiences).

Kethaera

There are several problems with self-policing this. When you have an OOC clan where a vast amount of IC communication is actually happening, that makes it extremely difficult for anyone to simply opt out of the clan. I know this has been an issue in Hallifax with at least one person who refuses to join OOC clans - which they shouldn't have to do - and is left out of a lot of the conversation. People of other orgs can claim all they want that this doesn't happen with their OOC clans, and I don't believe you. This is human nature, to prefer a medium with less pressure or standards to one where you have to put more thought into what you say. I do it, too, and if I can't self-police myself, there's no hope I can control other people.

That's why rules typically come from an outside source that is forced to be more impartial. In the example of people being left out of OOC clans, it means they're more likely to miss out on events, struggle with skills/quests, and more likely to not be given positions within the org. No one does this to deliberately be cruel, but the fact is we favor people we interact with more, regardless of how that interaction happens. It makes it difficult for new people to become part of an org when so much of the chatter is, to them, unheard.

I realize that banning them is a severe step, but taken the cliques and the lack of roleplay and the bad tendencies the clans foster, I don't believe they help more than harm. Most conversations could be had on IC channels in almost the same way as OOC ones, with minimum more effort taken. The truly OOC conversations, whether that's complaining about real life or talking about skill mechanics or making jokes about Czixi - you could have those over Discord. 

Maligorn

I think an important part of this conversation is how much OOC is acceptable. Orgs that have a semi-OOC or fully-OOC combat coordination clan 100% will outpace orgs that don't. In this case, self-policing is not a thing that's going to happen.

As for general purpose venting/chilling/chat OOC clans, I think that they should remain a part of the game. Encouraging people to have conversations on a different medium like Discord quite literally reduces participation in the game itself.

I'm really on the fence about this.

Kethaera

Maligorn said:

I think an important part of this conversation is how much OOC is acceptable. Orgs that have a semi-OOC or fully-OOC combat coordination clan 100% will outpace orgs that don't. In this case, self-policing is not a thing that's going to happen.

As for general purpose venting/chilling/chat OOC clans, I think that they should remain a part of the game. Encouraging people to have conversations on a different medium like Discord quite literally reduces participation in the game itself.

I'm really on the fence about this.

The first paragraph is another reason why it can't be self-policed, imo. There's no way to make it fair compared to orgs that just let it happen.

And I'm torn on the second part, too, because I don't want to tell people they can't chat with their friends in the game they play to chat with friends. That's not a thing I do, generally speaking. But it feels like we keep making excuses for why this is actually ok, when I can still see all the problems it's causing. If people don't want to participate IC at all, that's a far more serious problem - but I don't think that would happen. Rather, I think the OOCness reduces the IC participation, and that the later would increase if the former was gone.

Jolanthe

I held a lot of resistance to joining Hogwash initially, and really only joined once Steingrim said I could just keep the channel off forever and still have access to all the relevant clanhelps. I've come to really appreciate this, and have never been coaxed or encouraged to turn the channel on - only done so once voluntarily to help discuss things with a new player as a group.

Having trigger lines and dumps of various sorts that don't feel appropriate for a CHELP or a GHELP is great, imo, and only sensibly belong in ooc clanhelps as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather keep that functionality than throw it out, or have to build lots of outside sources and wikis to dig through and reference rather than having it kept in one window.

My experiences might be different from most, perhaps, but I'm not overly fussed with them existing.

Czixi

Kethaera said:
The truly OOC conversations, whether that's complaining about real life or talking about skill mechanics or making jokes about Czixi - you could have those over Discord. 

Kethaera

I'm only kidding, honest!

Lycidas

Well, you can choose not to believe others about their org ooc clans, but let me tell you about the Oiled Gears (oge) clan for Mag. It has rules that state what can and can't be done. Combat callouts don't exist there, we have an actual combat clan for that. IC interactions don't happen, at best it is used to test ping that person to see if they're responsive before attempting anything. OOC clans can be self policed, just requires people to enforce those rules. The clan is mostly used for poking at people or talking events or stuff that is blatantly OOC, or sharing of information when permitted. If we can do it, so can other orgs. Mag's solution was have the OOC channel for anybody who wants to join to shoot the breeze, and Legion for those that want to discuss combat mechanics or really any conflict.

Kethaera

Lycidas said:

Well, you can choose not to believe others about their org ooc clans, but let me tell you about the Oiled Gears (oge) clan for Mag. It has rules that state what can and can't be done. Combat callouts don't exist there, we have an actual combat clan for that. IC interactions don't happen, at best it is used to test ping that person to see if they're responsive before attempting anything. OOC clans can be self policed, just requires people to enforce those rules. The clan is mostly used for poking at people or talking events or stuff that is blatantly OOC, or sharing of information when permitted. If we can do it, so can other orgs. Mag's solution was have the OOC channel for anybody who wants to join to shoot the breeze, and Legion for those that want to discuss combat mechanics or really any conflict.

Not going to argue about it because there's no way I can, not playing in Mag, and I've seen too much evidence to the contrary elsewhere. I'm not picking on anyone here, but no one is perfect.

Vatul

Lycidas said:

Well, you can choose not to believe others about their org ooc clans, but let me tell you about the Oiled Gears (oge) clan for Mag. It has rules that state what can and can't be done. Combat callouts don't exist there, we have an actual combat clan for that. IC interactions don't happen, at best it is used to test ping that person to see if they're responsive before attempting anything. OOC clans can be self policed, just requires people to enforce those rules. The clan is mostly used for poking at people or talking events or stuff that is blatantly OOC, or sharing of information when permitted. If we can do it, so can other orgs. Mag's solution was have the OOC channel for anybody who wants to join to shoot the breeze, and Legion for those that want to discuss combat mechanics or really any conflict.

While this is a good point, OGE is not for breeze shooting. It's for helping novices and encouraging them to be more focused on learning and asking questions. We do sometimes chat on there, and it's friendly for sure. But it's mostly to shepherd TRUE novices through a situation where they don't understand a lot at first.

As for self-policing. I have had experiences with this, and unfortunately if there are many people who outweigh the opinions of others for removing a person for poor behavior despite a modding situation - Then that behavior may be left to continue without being checked. So while self-policing may be a solution, some people merely either aren't in the clique to be listened to, or the people who are modding it are ignored.

Saran

Qualified yes.

I think it's easier to make the policy that all clans are IC and that's that.
But I also think a formal combat questions channel would be good for each org to have by default which has the game-wide policies covering them, i.e directly game related mechanical questions that necessarily step outside IC.

Siam

I mean, it's not like anyone is being forced to join an OOC clan, unless things have changed between my inactivity and return. If a player doesn't want anything OOC related, it's simple: they don't have to join an OOC clan. It has never been a requirement so I don't understand those votes asking for the complete removal of OOC clans.

Rancoura

Siam said:

I mean, it's not like anyone is being forced to join an OOC clan, unless things have changed between my inactivity and return. If a player doesn't want anything OOC related, it's simple: they don't have to join an OOC clan. It has never been a requirement so I don't understand those votes asking for the complete removal of OOC clans.

It's been mentioned that sometimes things are discussed OOC that should be discussed IC, leading to those who are not in those OOC channels to miss out -- so there is some pressure to join, if only not to be left in the dark (no pun intended).

Saran

Siam said:

I mean, it's not like anyone is being forced to join an OOC clan, unless things have changed between my inactivity and return. If a player doesn't want anything OOC related, it's simple: they don't have to join an OOC clan. It has never been a requirement so I don't understand those votes asking for the complete removal of OOC clans.

So at one point I was told that the only way I could get help with combat was in a specific OOC clan which also was used for regular chatter that was significantly disconnected from the game.
When I was active, it became increasingly true that far more often than not people were too busy talking in OOC clans to talk on actual IC channels. (From being in some of them and being able to observe the behaviour)

So yeah, my most recent experience has been that if you want support to learn combat, you are forced to join an OOC clan. If you want more than silence even when your orgmates are online, you're probably going to have to join an OOC clan. Seemed like more and more the primary communication in the game was via OOC, which is why people have these complaints.


Also, just to quote the OOC help file

Staying IN CHARACTER, and Other Restrictions

--------------------------------------------

Always stay in character (IC) on channels - you are playing the role of a person in a magical world called Lusternia. Talk about real life, other muds, or your favorite singer - this should all be done outside the game or, if you must, use TELLS.

Basically reads as pretty much everything is IC. I remember discussions that came down to things like, if a player chooses to take anything from an OOC clan IC then that's their prerogative, same with say squads or ship channels.

Saran

As a question to those voting no.

Why do you need OOC clans in game?

Explaining combat stuff sure, that's pretty universal so we should have something built-in for that.
Developing stuff for your guild or org is a thin line, the majority is probably fine in IC and from experience tools outside the game are way more useful for the bits I've had that can't be IC.

But like, the majority of the OOC clans I've seen are mainly just breeze shooting and little else.

-----

Just because this has stuck out on a re-read.

Lycidas said:

Also, other means of OOC chatter exist and will continue to exist that can't be moderated anyway by admins. Also, what people do with their gold investment (buying of a clan) is their business. If they want to have a personal tailoring cartel that is also used for shooting the breeze OOC, so what? 

I feel like when you mentioned gold you kinda highlighted a flaw in the logic. 

Gold is an entirely IC currency, like maybe presents and the like can generate some for you but those still exist within the IC context. If clans were a credit purchase the argument would be different, but they're not.