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Justice question
(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
So he picked the 24 hour span where Justice was going to take place, to activate his Resolution, a thing you have to do intentionally? And the devs didn't catch this until he was already a finalist? And the devs also don't have a method of stripping this bonus? And easy way to tell if it was intentional would be to just look at the duration? Right? If it was more than 16 hours gone, probably not a cheating attempt because they'd have likely slept between and would have good reason to have forgotten. If it was like 1 hour? 2? Something less than 6. Then maybe probably don't give that person the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what the duration was. I can't judge that right now. But seriously.
From, 17.3.2 Ascension Rules
I guess there's some appropriateness that justice has some basic legalese to get your head round. There's no way it was intentional cheating because everyone gets checked.
It's essentially like if Lance Armstrong were in the Tour De France, and tested positive for steroids. Rather than wiping the placing, removing the records, and etc. They instead forced the entire event to wait a week while Lance pissed the steroids out of his system, because he claimed he didn't know about them. In what other competitive event, do you see something like that happening? This is our Tour De France, ascension is our once yearly supposedly fair competitive event. And this sours it.
We're not gonna do anything about them, because they didn't know any better. Ignorance is no excuse. They could have done their due diligence and checked over their Defs and seen that they had that active. Asked a mod to wipe it. They could have done their due diligence. But they didn't. And thus they cheated, knowingly or not. And now they're getting a do over. Because fuck the established rules.
And beyond that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If I cheat in an event next ascension, knowingly or unknowingly, will I get a tap on the nose, and a do over? What about the next person, the next person, and so on? Will they get their do over? Because in fairness now that this ruling has gone through like this. They should.
I'd honestly say, rather than running the full event next Saturday. To make this right keep the brackets as they are. Do a limited do-over of the top bracket. Same order but move the first person to fight the cheater forward one, as if giving them a bye. Then once that bracket is done, proceed to the losers bracket as normal. Anyone who cannot come to the event, because there will be those who get fucked by work schedules, gets another reward, either true favor of Estarra or Avechna, or credits, or something suitable the devs can come up with. Those who end up in brackets with people who cannot show up, get a bye. And so on. That would go a long way to re-establishing this as a fair competition that values all of the competitors who play by the rules.
A better question is, why aren't resolutions in the buff system?
The rules are posted. WELL before the event.
Avechna was confirming everyone had read and was following the rules that had been posted.
They decided to agree either without checking(Doing their due diligence), or with intention to use that buff because they felt it had a competitive advantage that was within the rules. But didn't check to confirm it was okay(Didn't do their due diligence here either.)
To your second attempt at deflection.
The rules clearly state it must show up in Bodyscan.
It shows up in Def but not Bodyscan.
Ergo buff should obviously not be allowed.
Ignorance is no excuse under most laws.
Why are they getting a do over?
Again, to quote myself.
And beyond that it sets a very dangerous precedent. If I cheat in an event next ascension, knowingly or unknowingly, will I get a tap on the nose, and a do over? What about the next person, the next person, and so on? Will they get their do over? Because in fairness now that this ruling has gone through like this. They should.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with how the admin have dealt with this. All I'll say is this: I don't believe Steingrim intended to break the rules.
So you're reasoning with social nihilism? You're excusing horrible handling of a situation because, "It's already so bad, this isn't any worse?" Nothing matters in the ruling is what you are saying. And we shouldn't care, and should sit down as all the players who participated in this event are proverbially speaking, lined up and collectively dicked because one person forgot to check their buffs?
That's even sillier than I thought...
There will be more instances, just don't forget this one. Patience, and see if things don't improve.
You could have sent me a tell or pinged me here and asked for an explanation.
I stand by my actions. I do get why people would think that clearly it was against the rules.
I did of course purposely activate the resolution as has been done with that resolution and with others since resolutions and seal trials have existed.
This is the rule: + Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills outside the buff
Note the 'from skills'. This is a rule about skill usage. Why is that important? It dates back to the overhaul years, where not all skills had been converted over. I think Penumbra was brought up back then and there were some funky Illuminati skills that were outside among others for a long time. For me that was a 'plug the overhaul problem' rule.
I thought and still do that rule exists to counter class and org imbalances not available to everyone. Resolutions are open to all. Yes, there's a cost for resolutions, but that's hardly unusual for a seal contest.
My issue is not with you. It's with how this was handled. It wasn't a question of your morality or choices, it was a question of the actions of the others involved in handling this situation.
Answer honestly: In what competitive environment would this be acceptable? To reschedule an event that had been announced ahead of time, because of the actions of one person. Exclude yourself from this. If you were reading about this and didn't know what Lusternia was, what would you think? Would you find it a respectable and competitive thing? Would it be a healthy thing for the competition within that field for the biggest competitive event to be rescheduled because of the actions of one person?
It isn't the first seal even to be rescheduled. I remember a war seal that was pushed.
My experience is in most competitive environments they go by the letter of the rule with a strong emphasis at making the wording right. Which I still believe I was in compliance with. But even when there's millions at stake there are gray areas that even people who professionally interpret rules struggle over.
@Xenthos or someone else may remember but I have a perhaps false memory of what was and was not a skill being a key part of a previous ruling.
If all of this had been parsed faster I suspect the resolution would have been faster, but we can't expect both, for them to be fair, to fully discuss things and to be quick about it. By the time a bit had passed it seemed like some of the contenders had left. Do you think they would be happy to return and find out it had been held in their absence?
I passed my suggestion onto the Admin and they seemed to take them into consideration and then reached their decisions.
So just chill. He'll either win again or he won't. In the meantime, you can compare the Lusternia Justice Seal with Lance Armstrong if you like, but all you'll do is drive up the price of popcorn.
He had an advantage that I know of two other competitors considering and then discarding as likely breaking the rules.
Did he clarify it? Or did he just do it?
Did he do due diligence, or did he gain a competitive advantage that was in anyway in a gray area of the rules?
If there was any possible contention it should have been clarified and asked at the start, when he agreed to the rules, which can be interpretted as forbidding the thing which he was actively using to gain an advantage over his competition.
More than that,
There's already two other rules dealing with skills that would forbid those same skills he was interpreting as what that rule was referring too.
Now did some admin feel the rules covered Resolutions? Not a mind-reader, but I would be surprised if some did not. Is it likely that some admin reviewing the rules believed the current rules covered Resolutions? Probably?
Now frankly, I don't remember if my conversation was public or private and I don't remember the context other than it had to do with skills being skills and things that were not skills, simply were not...skills. My memory was that it seemed a bit silly to me, but that, the admin was clear there was some justification. There are other things like that, things you'd assume as a player and the admin will tell you no. For instance, my custom x with resetting, is not an artifact. No idea why, but an admiin said so when I issued it.
But when Resolutions were introduced they were brought up on the forums specifically asking that they'd disabled during world games.
1. The admin were silent on that thread.
2. Those player in that thread was clearly saying they thought under the current rules they were allowed. I do not see a single voice in that thread saying, "No it is covered by the rules." Both the rules and this thread are linked below.
Next, the rule you're all pointing to pre-dates the release of Resolutions and was known by the player-base when some asked for it to be exempted from certain seals, including Justice, still not a one saying it was already covered by the rules.
Sure people can twist this if they want, but let me be clear, Ascension has always been as I've been told over and over meant to test you to use every possible allowed resource and strategy available. Some people have been planning for this for actual years.
Anyone can go on line and see the rule actually predates resolutions here.
Sometimes when you've played a game a long time you forget a lot of things. Note there is a difference in the rules between 'skills' and 'actions' that is what I was referring to earlier. That was at some point a settled mater that they were different and distinct. Don't buy that? It is followed with an example of both.
Next:
This rule is about 'skills', not all skills, but those outside of the 'buff system'. The 'i.e.' informs which 'skills' and not as some seem to think, 'max ego increases'. It reads 'In other words, "Passive ego regeneration and max ego increases from skills [which/that] does not show on BODYSCAN.
Per precedent Resolutions are not 'skills'.
Further, it is unfair of you to take this out of its historical context.
The overhaul system was something like mid-2013.
Resolutions were added I believe January, J2017 (poss. Dec.).
And what was said about resolutions then? If you can read this and think, oh everyone knew you couldn't use them then you're simply not me.
So Falaeron does not believe the rules cover Resolutions and that Resolutions should be disabled. Clearly the Admin chose not to do this. Nor, did any admin post it wasn't needed by saying anything along the lines of 'the rules ban it.'
So what did others say about it? Did they rise up and say anything along the lines of, 'clearly it is against the rules or the spirit of the rules or even the spirit of the competition? Not that I see anywhere.
So Karlach doesn't say they are not valid in Ascension, but thinks they're a problem in other areas. All those issues still remain to this day.
So, once again the help will catch up with the rules or the rules will change under my feet (which is to be expected in a system this complex) and it won't be the first time.
No. You're completely skirting the issue of mens rhea. The 'whether he thinks it's legitimate or not' is more important than you seem to want to accept if we want to decide whether somebody cheated. By definition, a cheat is somebody who acts dishonestly, and that requires a conscious decision to break the rules. (post edited to add the final word of this sentence, which got ett).
Further, let's flip it on its head: Two of your buddies considered the resolution and then discarded it as likely breaking the rules: You words, not mine. Now, again, let's damn them to the sixth hell, using your words, not mine:
Did they clarify it? Or did they just not do it?
Did they do due diligence, or did they just choose not to gain a competitive advantage that was in anyway in a grey area of the rules?
If there was any possible contention (which you've now admitted there was) it should have been clarified and asked at the start, when they agreed to the rules, which can be interpretted as not forbidding the thing which they were actively not using to gain an advantage over their competition.
By your own argument this is an issue of interpretation, and as such you shouldn't be using it to cast aspersions on a person's motives and character.
Accountability is necessary.