It might be worth splitting the HELP ENVOY file into multiple files, one of which could be a basic guide to use (that one of us players can probably write).
I've added a HELP VOTEWEIGHTS - and made the message more clear and refers to this helpfile.
I've also added REPORTS as a keyword for the envoy help file.
As far as new syntax commands, I don't think adding those will be helpful. It's typically better to have one keyword to reference and be able to pull up all the relative commands associated with it.
In the syntax list, the entire upper portion is any command someone who would vote and/or comment on a report would need to know. A lot of it is just allowing you to sort the report lists in a way that lets you see what you are looking for more easily. Yeah, there are a lot of options, but we wanted to give the players a lot of freedom and ability to work with and partake in this system.
As far as splitting up HELP ENVOYS into multiple files, if people want to take the time to send in suggestions for what it should be, I would welcome it. We have the helpedit system that you can use and I'd even be willing to reward any submission that gets accepted a small credit reward (maybe 20 credits or so).
I get what you're saying about the list being upper and lower halves, but that actually supports what I'm saying. They are two different things. Reporting vs. voting. Why do they use the same command? It's confusing. I'm not reporting anything, I'm voting. Again, my opinion.
Fair enough, but I think you are trying to oversimplify it by just saying 'I'm voting.' You're also reading reports (which may require sorting of the list to help you see what you're looking for) and potentially commenting on it. I do not view it as two different things, it's all one big system and should have the same hook. I think it's going to get a lot more confusing if we start adding 'READREPORT' 'COMMENTREPORT' 'VOTEREPORT 'WRITEREPORT' syntaxes rather than just one syntax that you can use any command from.
I'd be more interested in seeing vote weight divorced from this. Given that comments-posters are hidden (except maybe from the admin?), there's no reason why one of my characters can work within the system and another cannot. I feel as though if one of your characters is an envoy, it should maybe unlock it for the rest of the characters attached to that email.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm all about making the system as easy to navigate as possible, so if you have ideas on how to make that system easier to navigate, let me know. I've made a whole bunch of changes based on player suggestions (including from this thread) in order to make it as easy to use as possible.
If you think there could be a better error message, throw out a suggestion. It's clear enough to me, but I'm familiar with the system.
I'm all about making the system as easy to navigate as possible, so if you have ideas on how to make that system easier to navigate, let me know. I've made a whole bunch of changes based on player suggestions (including from this thread) in order to make it as easy to use as possible.
If you think there could be a better error message, throw out a suggestion. It's clear enough to me, but I'm familiar with the system.
Add in mxp tags so there's less trial and error.
Click-to-vote would be nice. Just tap the solutions you want instead of having to figure out / remember the syntax.
I'd be more interested in seeing vote weight divorced from this. Given that comments-posters are hidden (except maybe from the admin?), there's no reason why one of my characters can work within the system and another cannot. I feel as though if one of your characters is an envoy, it should maybe unlock it for the rest of the characters attached to that email.
Personally I'm not a fan of divorcing that. All that screams in my mind is "Abuse! Abuse" whether good intentions or not, there's always the one bad apple to ruin it.
I'd be more interested in seeing vote weight divorced from this. Given that comments-posters are hidden (except maybe from the admin?), there's no reason why one of my characters can work within the system and another cannot. I feel as though if one of your characters is an envoy, it should maybe unlock it for the rest of the characters attached to that email.
Personally I'm not a fan of divorcing that. All that screams in my mind is "Abuse! Abuse" whether good intentions or not, there's always the one bad apple to ruin it.
You could bake in something else if necessary like needing to have mentor on a character which provides a minimum playtime and level requirement. And if the concern is, effectively, seconds abuse isn't there stuff that can flag suspect stuff already (like, two different registrations from the same ip voting)?
I'd be more interested in seeing vote weight divorced from this. Given that comments-posters are hidden (except maybe from the admin?), there's no reason why one of my characters can work within the system and another cannot. I feel as though if one of your characters is an envoy, it should maybe unlock it for the rest of the characters attached to that email.
Personally I'm not a fan of divorcing that. All that screams in my mind is "Abuse! Abuse" whether good intentions or not, there's always the one bad apple to ruin it.
Abused how? A person making multiple, unattached alts on different isp addresses to all vote against something with their 1 vote weight?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Is vote weight included in the calculation of how much each support vote is worth? It's entirely possible (probable I think) that people with vote weight 5 and vote weight 10 are currently treated the same. So it would be people taking multiple alts to vote against something with their votes, those being the same as one person's vote weight 10 vote.
A possible suggestion I'd have for this, rather than using vote weight, is track votes by registered email and just give a value of 1. No special treatment to those marked as Envoys, just everybody gets one vote at the set value. Yes this is still open other methods of abuse that have been brought up, multiple registered emails, but the staff have sniffed out issues like that happening before and rectified it. If someone feels so strongly towards a report to get themselves shrubbed, then I applaud the dedication, but shake my head at the method.
Is there a point to "Simple Ideas" type threads, is the envoy system intended to replace all player-driven (as opposed to admin-solicited) ideas and input on the use of coding resources?
I have added a report to the system with some of my thoughts and concerns. I would really appreciate your votes, comments, other ideas-- please let me know here or via a comment on the report!
Problem: Now that we have made it through a round of Envoy Reports, we would like to discuss some changes to the system in an attempt to make it easier for people to engage with it and feel like their opinions are being heard. Right now, the system is built around thresholds being met to try to push that engagement, but the thresholds appear to be having the opposite affect. The people who write the reports are ending up spending a lot of time campaigning to hit these hidden values, which ends up leaving them feeling like they are constantly nagging everyone around them. This is exacerbated by reports being on a non-constant cycle (each report with its own cycle) so you must keep track of each one individually. This report aims to adjust some of these, as well as suggesting some other smaller / minor tweaks to make the reporting system hopefully a bit more attractive to use.
Solution 1: (S: 5 SC: 1) Voted: Support Set reports to use a specific cycle instead of each having its own. Have a report tick on the 1st of each month and on the 16th. Any report that is at or past its threshold on one of these ticks advances to the next stage automatically. If it is not at the threshold, a counter is incremented and it remains in its current stage. Only after failing two ticks in a row does it go back to the Draft stage.
Solution 2: (S: 5 SC: 1) Voted: Support Adjust the thresholds further down. Or, at the very least, flag the report with an indicator on REPORT ### when it has met the threshold. As-is, many players are not engaging with the system because they care about the reports but because they are being asked over and over to vote just to meet these numbers, and when nobody knows exactly what they are or when they're met, the entire lifespan of the report involves constant pressure on everyone around you.
Solution 3: (S: 4 SC: 1) Voted: Support In addition to the above, make it so when you do REPORT ### and look at the solutions, you can just click on the "A / R / X" or "S / SC" options to vote for the option you clicked on. This is to encourage people to actually look at the report & solutions instead of just typing in "report ### vote 1 1" when requested to do so, because that really shouldn't be the intent of the envoy system. We want people to vote for what they like!
You have voted already, but can replace your vote with the following options: 1) Support 2) Support with Changes
--[Comment #1]---------------------------------------------------------- Additionally, please add any other comments / concerns / thoughts for improvements you would like to see (especially if it would make *you* more likely to vote or to write your own report). Thank you!
I'd love to vote in support, but the system won't let me vote. Still don't have the vote weight. Despite all the time I spend playing the game and contributing here, I don't have the weight. Just sayin'
Vote weight does change based on time spent in game over the past past week, but it does not rise based on time spent in game simply over a single week. If you spent 20 hours in game last week, your vote weight will rise to reflect it, but will fall if you spent no time in game this week. Demonstrating consistent time in game over the course of multiple weeks is how vote weight rises to an appreciable level. Hope this is helpful.
Hey everyone! I'm checking in to discuss the current set of envoy reports. There aren't a lot of 'em right now, but there are some really good ones! Please make sure to check in and place your votes.
The one to streamline envoy reports will probably make your lives easier
if you're interested in reports at all (01190509). There's also a
report to balance out rift amounts (02192301), to allow you to see which costume is
currently active on you (02192302), to make tradeskills people easier to find (03191101), to give a
report on how much family honour is generated (02191201), and finding questing
hidden objects (02192102). Plus a pair of warrior reports (01190502 and 03190301).
If any of these things are something that you're intrigued by, simply REPORT ######## to read it! Then if you like any of the solutions, do REPORT ######## VOTE *solutionNumber* 1 (the 1 is for Support, or Accept) for the solution(s) you like.
You're more than welcome to ask questions here, or just send me a message on the forums or in-game if you'd like more information on anything.
Might just be me, but they feel very unwieldy to use. Rather than quickly going report 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 you have to keep referring back to the listing. Perhaps I'm missing something here.
If there is a
particular thing you don't want this new report system to work on, you
need to make sure people understand that. Don't let us sink months of
time into a report and then just reject it because you don't want to set
precedence. Don't expect us to know guidelines if you don't explain it
beforehand.
Also, @Orael - we've now seen a full cycle of reports.
This started on January 5th. Report decisions were not until March 23rd. And decisions include such responses as, "We don't want to do it this way, but we're interested in another report that addresses this slightly differently." Come on. That's more than five months of burned time, and that's even if the second report is even considered and not just similarly dismissed.
I don't know why making suggestions for improvements to the game needed to become so tortuous. It's incredibly discouraging.
Edit: If you want people to engage with the system, you need to be
willing to work with us. I just don't see how this can be effective if
the only interaction is a one paragraph block after 2.5 months of wait
time, and that paragraph says "try again."
I'm being put in a difficult spot and I feel like there is no understanding of our position here. I'm willing to continue to make adjustments to make the system better, I've been sold on the cycles idea and I'm willing to listen to other ideas as well. (There are also ideas I'm not sold on, such as people using the skill having more weight than people not using the skill when voting).
1) The old envoy system at least twice over the past few years was backed up 6+ months (with some reports even approved and then rejected) because we just didn't have time to focus on them. It got so backed up, that reporting was cut off each time to allow us to catch up.
2) It takes time. Plain and simple, it takes time, There needs to be time for players to consider and comment on it and there needs to be time for the admin to consider and comment on it. As a note, the admin, for the most part, won't even start considering it until it reaches the adminreview stage. The entire reason there is a threshold system is to reduce the amount of admin time spent on it.
3) We're going to critically look at each report and consider a multitude of things when looking at it. There's a variety of things we're going to look at and take into consideration. Votes and comments are just one aspect. Another is implementation time vs value returned. We just can't accept every report makes it through, it's just not feasible. That's how we get backed up for 6+ months and then complaints about that delay come in.
I think at this point, even if we add some changes like making it cyclical, we're still going to have a decently long time delay that is going to end up with reports rejected for a variety of reasons. I don't know that it is avoidable, but if you have ideas, I'm all ears.
Edit: I'll take full responsibility for the pattern issue though. It is not something I considered when we first put this in and I continually said that I want you to be willing to report anything. It wasn't until that report and the admin consulted it that we determined that we do not want to set a precedent for that within this system. That's my fault, I'm sorry.
The understanding of positions has to go both ways. If there is an agreement that there is a problem, or something should be reviewed to the point that a new report is requested... what is the point in adding another 75+ RL day delay to the process? That's not including coding time, just time trying to herd a report through when you know it's already been "rejected" once.
Further, these new reports are now something that we have to get very invested in. It takes months of our time to push for them to get into the system, to get through it, to get the support to even get to the admin review stage. The old system simply did not have the same level of investment. With all the extra burden placed on us to make these reports even happen, I strongly feel like there needs to be a recognition of that fact.
Let's say that you're not a producer, you're an ephemeral. You've spent time putting together a new project. The decisionmakers don't want to even see it until it's done, so you share it with co-ephemerals and you work together to improve it. You've invested over a month of your time into the thing, and it finally gets submitted for review. Then the response is: "We don't like it, please throw it out and start all over." Note that I'm not saying this is how Havens work; I'd like to think that there is input throughout the process to avoid this. But if it did work that way I'd imagine that you'd end up with a bunch of very discouraged ephemerals who don't have an interest in "wasting" their time on designing new projects.
That's how I'm feeling about the report here.
If you want to save yourself the time on input throughout, I can understand that. But you have to be willing to work with us after the thing's made it through the process. If you agree that there's a problem, don't reject the whole report! Offer a replacement idea, talk to the report writer. Maybe even put up a final 15 day report with the new solutions you work out with them on it for the playerbase as a whole to comment on and chime in as to whether they think about the new proposal. Sure, 15 days is a fair bit of extra time, but it's not 75 days and it doesn't burn an entire report cycle up.
I also think that if there are things that you don't want done through the envoy system, we need to know what those are. As you say, you told us that you want us to report anything. We thought that was a great idea. It's a message I've passed along faithfully and we have written reports about many game systems. We need to know the rules ahead of time.
My proposal for that would be: If a report is submitted that you decide you don't want to be done through the envoy system, and it wasn't explicitly banned, then do two things. 1) Add it to the banned list, saying "Any new report after this point will be rejected automatically," and announce this. 2) Any report that is already in Consideration / Review / Etc. which violates this rule is grandfathered in. You explicitly state this on the report responses: "We are not accepting any new reports on this subject, but we acknowledge that it was allowed when this report was created, so we will address this report on its merits." If you want to reject it after that because you don't like it, that's still your prerogative, but please don't just nuke it on the "precedent setting" end of things when we don't know such a thing even exists.
Comments
I've also added REPORTS as a keyword for the envoy help file.
As far as new syntax commands, I don't think adding those will be helpful. It's typically better to have one keyword to reference and be able to pull up all the relative commands associated with it.
In the syntax list, the entire upper portion is any command someone who would vote and/or comment on a report would need to know. A lot of it is just allowing you to sort the report lists in a way that lets you see what you are looking for more easily. Yeah, there are a lot of options, but we wanted to give the players a lot of freedom and ability to work with and partake in this system.
As far as splitting up HELP ENVOYS into multiple files, if people want to take the time to send in suggestions for what it should be, I would welcome it. We have the helpedit system that you can use and I'd even be willing to reward any submission that gets accepted a small credit reward (maybe 20 credits or so).
Again, my opinion.
Add in mxp tags so there's less trial and error.
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg">https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg</a>Title: Envoy Reports
Stage: Consideration
Decays: 16 Days
SUBSCRIBED
Problem:
Now that we have made it through a round of Envoy Reports, we would like to discuss some changes to the system in an attempt to make it easier for people to engage with it and feel like their opinions are being heard. Right now, the system is built around thresholds being met to try to push that engagement, but the thresholds appear to be having the opposite affect. The people who write the reports are ending up spending a lot of time campaigning to hit these hidden values, which ends up leaving them feeling like they are constantly nagging everyone around them. This is exacerbated by reports being on a non-constant cycle (each report with its own cycle) so you must keep track of each one individually. This report aims to adjust some of these, as well as suggesting some other smaller / minor tweaks to make the reporting system hopefully a bit more attractive to use.
Solution 1: (S: 5 SC: 1) Voted: Support
Set reports to use a specific cycle instead of each having its own. Have a report tick on the 1st of each month and on the 16th. Any report that is at or past its threshold on one of these ticks advances to the next stage automatically. If it is not at the threshold, a counter is incremented and it remains in its current stage. Only after failing two ticks in a row does it go back to the Draft stage.
Solution 2: (S: 5 SC: 1) Voted: Support
Adjust the thresholds further down. Or, at the very least, flag the report with an indicator on REPORT ### when it has met the threshold. As-is, many players are not engaging with the system because they care about the reports but because they are being asked over and over to vote just to meet these numbers, and when nobody knows exactly what they are or when they're met, the entire lifespan of the report involves constant pressure on everyone around you.
Solution 3: (S: 4 SC: 1) Voted: Support
In addition to the above, make it so when you do REPORT ### and look at the solutions, you can just click on the "A / R / X" or "S / SC" options to vote for the option you clicked on. This is to encourage people to actually look at the report & solutions instead of just typing in "report ### vote 1 1" when requested to do so, because that really shouldn't be the intent of the envoy system. We want people to vote for what they like!
You have voted already, but can replace your vote with the following options:
1) Support
2) Support with Changes
--[Comment #1]----------------------------------------------------------
Additionally, please add any other comments / concerns / thoughts for improvements you would like to see (especially if it would make *you* more likely to vote or to write your own report). Thank you!
Just sayin'
Might just be me, but they feel very unwieldy to use. Rather than quickly going report 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 you have to keep referring back to the listing. Perhaps I'm missing something here.
They're still long, but that would explain it.
I'm being put in a difficult spot and I feel like there is no understanding of our position here. I'm willing to continue to make adjustments to make the system better, I've been sold on the cycles idea and I'm willing to listen to other ideas as well. (There are also ideas I'm not sold on, such as people using the skill having more weight than people not using the skill when voting).
1) The old envoy system at least twice over the past few years was backed up 6+ months (with some reports even approved and then rejected) because we just didn't have time to focus on them. It got so backed up, that reporting was cut off each time to allow us to catch up.
2) It takes time. Plain and simple, it takes time, There needs to be time for players to consider and comment on it and there needs to be time for the admin to consider and comment on it. As a note, the admin, for the most part, won't even start considering it until it reaches the adminreview stage. The entire reason there is a threshold system is to reduce the amount of admin time spent on it.
3) We're going to critically look at each report and consider a multitude of things when looking at it. There's a variety of things we're going to look at and take into consideration. Votes and comments are just one aspect. Another is implementation time vs value returned. We just can't accept every report makes it through, it's just not feasible. That's how we get backed up for 6+ months and then complaints about that delay come in.
I think at this point, even if we add some changes like making it cyclical, we're still going to have a decently long time delay that is going to end up with reports rejected for a variety of reasons. I don't know that it is avoidable, but if you have ideas, I'm all ears.
Edit: I'll take full responsibility for the pattern issue though. It is not something I considered when we first put this in and I continually said that I want you to be willing to report anything. It wasn't until that report and the admin consulted it that we determined that we do not want to set a precedent for that within this system. That's my fault, I'm sorry.