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Lusternia Activity Levels: Followup Discussion

ShaddusShaddus , the Leper MessiahOutside your window.
in Q&A
It's been about a month and a half since Estarra posted about the activity levels of the game and asked for our input. Input was given,  calmly or not, and a lot of people had many different ideas on what Lusternia needs or is lacking. 

How do you feel the administration has handled this so far? Do you feel like Lusternia is getting on the right track? In particular,  what do you feel the admin have done right (or not done right ) since the prior post? 
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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Comments

  • SaranSaran
    My logins have dropped since the last threads and I cancelled my elite.
    I've kept up to date with the changes that have happened but I really haven't felt any great desire to log in, the longest time I spent online since the thread was when I was grabbing the honour lines for the pool so that I didn't miss out on them.

    My experience with the pools reminded me of issues complained about in the previous threads and with Starmourn coming at the end of the week I'm probably just going to dive into that.

    Things have happened sure but, realistically, not the things that are going to make enough of a difference for my play experience and it doesn't feel like they're on the horizon, so yep.
  • MoiMoi
    I feel like the admins are honestly trying to fix things, but the execution of the fixes hasn't been perfect. Further, the biggest problem (people are leaving because other people are leaving) isn't something the admins can fix - certainly not at this point, and probably not something they could have 'fixed' in the first place. Lusternia might recover, or it might not. It all depends on how many people end up leaving for Starmourn, I guess.
  • EstarraEstarra
    Thank you so much for those who have stuck with us. You will be the players who shape Lusternia and I look forward to seeing where we would go. I am still open to hearing what further pressing things you feel should be immediately looked at and what implementations or 'fixes' have fallen short. Feel free to share here or email me privately.
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  • VatulVatul
    edited December 2018
    I honestly feel a combination of all of the voting options.
    No one thing can fix Lusternia or change the apathy of those who are already planning to go to Starmourn vocally. And that is a shame, it will either close Lusternia or some drastic measures will be taken to make sure it remains live. Some of which, I'm wondering what is happening behind the scenes, @Estarra, and what talks there have been or yet to come concerning the opening of Starmourn.
    Unfortunately the previous thread was not a one-time deal, big fix, one fix issue - and suddenly everything returns to normal. Addressing them immediately might deal with the small issues, but not the overarching issues at large vocalized on the previous thread.
    I noticed that the rallying of admin seems to be declining, but it is Christmas, there is plenty of work to be done behind the scenes. Life stuff. We do appreciate you and all of your skills and enrichment, but we need more of you - maybe opening ephemeral applications with an advanced development push might help infuse a bit more enthusiasm into the player base. I doubt it, because our population has dwindled so much, but it's a suggestion.
    As I said before in our unofficial discord, there is a lot of uncertainty that I am getting from all of the players I know, and we would appreciate straight forward transparency in this time. We as a player-base would want to know if we can help, or know to invest/not invest emotionally and fiscally in Lusternia depending on what is said from on high.
    My frank opinion overall is this: It is not shameful to get big help from other games, or producers to fix Lusternia. I realize that this may not be realistic as resources always seem to be short. But it can be done.
    I personally feel that losing Lusternia would be a hit to MUDS in general, it is a rich place, full of so much potential. It just needs an army that we don't have at this time.
    I love Lusternia, it is worth saving. But I know it won't be the same Lusternia, if it is saved. And I have to come to terms with that. Thanks for reading.
    The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
    *
    A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the
    theatre due to the snowy weather.
    *
    Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold,
    hungering malice.
  • BairlochBairloch
    I love the world you've created. The main reason I still log in, though infrequently, is to learn more about it. My biggest complaint is that I don't feel... like I have any stake in it. The world doesn't need me, but I think of that as a good thing. A world waiting around to be saved is every mediocre video game's low-hanging fruit. No, the real problem is that the other players don't need me. We all don't need each other at all, at least not mechanically. No one needs me for bookbinding, or, before that, for herbs. I've never had another player make me a weapon, though I did need an instrument from time to time, that's true.
    A lack of needing each other leads to a lack of community and a loss of belonging, imho. And I think that is Lusternia's biggest struggle. Most of the artifacts and other wondrous items encourage self-sufficiency, but there's no way you could clear them out, at this point. People paid real money for them. They also paid to have multiple tradeskills and plenty of other things that mean they don't need anyone else.
    They likely did this, originally, because with a flagging population it was necessary for their survival. But, in a downward spiral, it led to more people leaving, feeling like they didn't have a reason to stay. This forced more self-sufficiency, which lead to... you get it.

    I'm doing a thing I hate, complaining without offering a solution. But I'm stumped. I have been for years. I wish I had a nice easy answer. But wishing is just a waste of time, and I've got nothing else to offer.
  • VersaleanVersalean
    edited December 2018
    Honestly, I don't see how anything other than a character (note that I'm not saying 'player') wipe will fix what's really wrong with Lusternia.

    ETA: The one thing that might save it is outside the Godmin's control, and that's stopping Starmourn from ever taking retirement credits. The second that place opens for retirees I'll be leaving Lusty like her husband's car just pulled up.
  • SaranSaran
    Enadonella said:
    Advertise the game outside of places where people who already bloody play look. We need fresh blood. Don't waste resources and energy on people who already have one foot out the damned door. If they want Lusternia they already know where it is. 
    Lol, resources don't get spent on players that are leaving. (You can see this in Estarra's posts in this thread) 
    Resources get spent on the unending combat overhaul that seems to be stretching off into the foreseeable future. 

    Even the most basic outreach of asking people who have left why they did hasn't been done. Which is reflective of a administrative mindset that the players who have left don't matter.

    And when you don't resolve the reasons for people leaving, guess what, more people leave for those some reasons. Some of these issues been around for the better part of the last decade without resolution.
  • EstarraEstarra
    @Saran, I'm sorry you feel the way you do and I know from past interactions that no one can change your mind or your opinions, but I hope others don't buy into the narrative that we don't care or don't listen or only focus on the combat overhaul. It just isn't true and, more importantly, not productive moving forward.

    @Enadonella, I'd love to advertise but the last ad campaigns did not work out (comic sites, Google, Facebook, etc.). I've tried myself posting on other forums, including forums for visually impaired gamers (which seems like a logical place), but there's been limited success. If you have ideas, though, feel free to share!
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  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie
    I think it's pretty clear that there is a good faith effort to improve the game. It remains to be seen how much that effort accomplishes. If I was feeling fancy, I'd insert a gif of Picard going on about making all the right moves and still losing. I am not fancy, but you should feel free to imagine it.

    Personally,  I am drifting away even more because none of those fixes really intersect with the parts of Lusternia that I care about. There's no sign of addressing problems with the current library policies, bardics are still gone, no signs of life on new design patterns. Quests are neat, but it is hard to predict which ones will break or have irritatingly grindy elements if I try them. They often work, but they often break. I don't feel inclined to roll the dice on that if I'm not also interacting with Lusternia in other ways.

    So right now, there is no mechanical or competitive reason for me to interact with Lusternia. There are a few Lusternians that I like, but I can get in touch with them via Discord whenever I want. There's RP, but I have tabletop games for that. Frankly, they tend to be better for it, barring a few Lusternians here or there. Of course, you can only do RP stuff if people are around. This is not the case, at least when I'm available. That makes sense to me. After all, if I am not logging in to a game where I don't do mechanical things purely in the hope of running into a decent person for RP, I can't really expect other people to do that. There's a lot of things competing for my time!

    End result is that I have very little reason to log in. I have a tenuous link with Consortium things, but it is hard to care about that when there are so few Consortium people around. So I just do other things. If the problems with the parts of the game that I care about get fixed, that may change. I expect that a lot of people are in a similar position for the parts that they care about, which are probably different from the parts that I care about!

    I really, truly, hope that you get the game to the point where people want to log in and do things. I would like to see people using game mechanics and interacting with each other. I don't really expect it to happen, especially for culture things, but I would be happy to be wrong.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • CoralineCoraline
    edited December 2018
    @Estarra I personally found my previous MUD game (the game which introduced me to MUDs) through advertising on textadventures.uk , because I was already open to trying out text based games
    You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
  • ArixArix
    Estarra said:
    @Saran, I'm sorry you feel the way you do and I know from past interactions that no one can change your mind or your opinions, but I hope others don't buy into the narrative that we don't care or don't listen or only focus on the combat overhaul. It just isn't true and, more importantly, not productive moving forward.

    @Enadonella, I'd love to advertise but the last ad campaigns did not work out (comic sites, Google, Facebook, etc.). I've tried myself posting on other forums, including forums for visually impaired gamers (which seems like a logical place), but there's been limited success. If you have ideas, though, feel free to share!
    I found IRE through the 8-Bit Theater ads so for me at least they were effective
  • EstarraEstarra
    Thanks, @Coraline! I'll check it out!
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  • EllowynEllowyn
    I dislike how long it takes for toxic people to be booted off the game (and some still aren't).  That's the number one thing that makes me not want to log in.
  • RilunaRiluna
    It's not entirely the administration. My two cents.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnadonellaEnadonella
    @Estarra, sales is definitely not my forte, I just know that I am constantly hearing from people (in general life not just gaming) that they are looking for something different. Well your product is very bloody different and it is amazing (as much as I bitch about you/other aspects obviously I like something) so that is what needs to be sold. Not the game itself, but the promise of something different, sell what you have! Also advertising a big event is really helpful, use ascension to your advantage. Your pop is higher and people are more inclined to be helpful because they want allies and 'helpers' the only thing that will need changing is more of a chance for little ones to actually win something. 
     
    On the note of 'toxicity' I think people need to realise when they don't like someone and instead of spending their time whinging on forums just acknowledge and move the Nil on. Give it up. I ain't going anywhere, not to Starmourn, not to WoW, nothing. I have invested a great deal of my life here and I don't regeret a second of it. Sure there are some proper wankers here, but there are some proper wankers living in my street and I don't move house, you know what I do? I choose not to interact with them. Those same in real life choices can apply here too! All I can say is that some people need to accept there is no love with some people and let them go. Just...let it go bro.

    One other thing I have notice is that the 'bias' argument goes around in circles. And I think what has happened is a miscommunication on various levels of the argument. Where some people are claiming bias they are actually whinging because they aren't as well rounded at combat as others. And that is okay not everyone has to be a pro fighter! But where that bias really counts are in designs approval, issue resolution, general communication, big spenders. I have played in a bunch of places as Ena and on alts and I can't honestly say I have sensed any kind of admin bias. That bullshittery needs to die in a hole. The only biases I have ever seen are social ones, where people are friendly with some and not others. And that is quite frankly normal and if you can just accept you aren't teacher's pet and get on with life you'll a-okay. Bias happens everywhere. This is a basic social concept that some people seem to struggle with. :(

    Also I don't know if it was passed on but I was impressed about the micro transactions being introduced, but if you make some smaller ones, like $5-$10 I have a good feeling after some time those will generate you some real dingbats versus what you have. Also I have heard you are attached to the big ticket artis, but if you would consider something like changing how pliers work or beast collars you would see a lot more interest and spending for those items. " At the end of the day you won't ever please people you need to find the line where people sit contentedly.

    If you want some honest ideas on arti changes that will create spending or whatever hit up the Glom discord I am always happy to chat about that stuff. I promise I won't mention the R word. :P

    @Saran resources aren't always the usual suspects like money, it could be time spent on brainstorming, and the like such as these conversations, all of that. The emotional energy spent from all of us on this game is enough to run a small bloody country. People need to just chill out and look beyond their own problems. This is a larger community and those smaller incidents people love to whine about here on forums aren't what is killing the game, it certainly has a trickle on effect where people will quit for a time or what not, but some people are just like that, they be fickle.

    Someone also made a comment somewhere about not being needed. And that is so true. Trades, are a big loss for a lot of people, but there is also the lack of that 'belonging' feeling. Everyone seems to be more concerned about not being accpeted or appreciated or good enough. And with how some people are treated publicly I can understand why others are nervous to engage. That to me is our biggest problem, the lack of RP between us common people (that is said with love). But I have seen lots of people come and go and one thing is for certain, other than a small remniscent moment you aren't missed once you leave, someone always fills the void. So if you want to be wanted then just be here. Someone will want you around, but no one is going to demand you stay, not on any real level. Play because you want to, and if for whatever reason you don't want to don't bloody drag everyone else out with you. Just bugger off in silence. Why ruin someone else's fun? 
  • AnitaAnita
    Apologies for the second post, it's easier than trying to edit the massive thing up there -- couple of other ideas that could possibly be implemented as baby step fixes --
    More ACHIEVEMENTS: I really think that Achievements could be reviewed and more added! I'll try to think of some, but it just popped into my head.
    Vengeance: Please make the Vengeance arena open to all players on Avechna's Peak -- have it activate with a queue system like that of the Wargames/Slippers/Freezetag/FFA for Avenger arena. This would be really awesome since then we can play with anyone across the Basin -enemy or ally!
  • VatulVatul
    I've pressed for new trades like "Perfumes" for years, and had ideas about creating custom figurines, and statues along the same lines of what Anita is talking about. It's evident that many other people have had the same ideas too, it would be cool to implement.

    I am too wondering about Artisinals and Bardics, family system, and design stuff. As population continues to drop, I'm wondering how those things will be handled.
    The cool night-time breeze shivers in the arid caress of the streets of the capital city, brushing the earthen taste of dust across your lips.
    *
    A blessed silence falls upon the city for the moment, most activity confined to the towers and the
    theatre due to the snowy weather.
    *
    Pinprick points of light twinkle in the deep black overhead, their brightness full of a cold,
    hungering malice.
  • KistanKistan
    Anita said:

    ......

    The things that need to be looked at eventually / some ideas (please note I said eventually, I know some of these things will take a lot and other projects are a-happenin'!)

    .........

    Family System : There are a few places across the forums where ideas have been given for a reviewing of the family system such as: https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3353/family-system I know it's one of those "it's very far down the list of things" but I think that this is also one of the issues that Lusternia faces in terms of engagement and retention. With a limited playerbase number now, trying to grow your family is extremely hard, finding a spouse is harder when you're related to everyone and their mothers and sometimes even to yourself! I think being able to have one spouse initiate an adoption, and if there is no response from the other spouse in 7 RL days / 12 RL days (IG year), then the adoption goes ahead - that way families can still grow even if someone's spouse has gone inactive. Alternatively, for those people who can't find a spouse or had divorced their spouse because of above issue of being inactive, single-parent adoption into families would also be a good idea.  I would like to say I'm glad my report passed and we reduced the number needed for Greathouse, we've seen a few houses step up now so yay!

    I think it is sad that things like this are so far down the list. To me, one of the strengths of this type game is the building of relationships between people and groups

    For me the things that would grow the game (or at least slow those leaving) are not mechanical, single player grinding stuff but rather things that build on inter personal relationships between the players. (Although I think single player adoptions are bad and lets limping great houses limp on and inhibits new family growth - put them out of their misery!)

    But addressing the things that build communities would help player retention. Most people come to the game to see other people. By making this relationship building easier, I think it would encourage people to stay.

    But at the same time, i think it should be easier to get rid of great houses as well - how many have 2 active members and 49 who have never been seen in 3+ RL years - great houses should have to work at staying active and relevant!

    The other thing that I always thought should be made easier is joining an order. I think that having one (in some cases inactive) player gatekeeper to a divine order also stops relationship building. These should be opened up more. So what that XXXX'x chosen does not like the new guy in the order ---- oh look some conflict!




  • TenakaTenaka
    edited December 2018
    Since we are discussing things that would make people excited to stay and play.

    Remove the XP slowdown. You had a couple people, one infamous person in particular abuse AFK (asleep for a week) bashing and get miles ahead of everyone and instead of -just punishing that person- you punished the entire player base and made it impossible to ever overtake anyone once you were in the top 10 experience ranks. I for one loved watching my ranking go up and continue do so, until I realised I was being punished for someone else's crimes.

    People who love bashing, and we exist, want to be able to reach NUMBER 1.
  • TorgadonTorgadon
    edited December 2018
    I felt like retiring. 

    I waited. 

    I come back for the bucket full of laughs. 

    It is a great game - great people. The many ways to roleplay are amazing. 

    #Gaudiguch-got-the-hooch 

    Love that city!
  • ElironEliron
    I think things are moving in the right direction. The new intro, core skills, wondercrystals, all these are great things to make the game easier to dive into. Even something as simple as including the reminder about autocuring in the Welcome Back package is great.

    Ultimately it's the roleplay and the world building that always bring me back to Lusternia, so I would love to see attention given to the family system and bardics. I think lowering the GH threshold was a good start, but there where a lot of other great ideas in Xenthos' thread that Anita linked to.
  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna
    While I think some things are moving in the right direction I also think we are still failing to address the part nobody really wants to talk about. Your playerbase is very stretched out over a large number of organizations. The most I have seen online in my timezone is 30-40 players with an average around 20 and a lul of 8. We have 6 nations so in a balanced crossection we would have 6 people per org during prime hours and 1 to nobody in down hours. Now you have to spread those peoples across 18 guilds to form some guild rp style and do guild rituals (I have seen very few guilds do successful guild events lately, not due to a lack of players trying but due to a lack of players). 

    What I am saying is the number of organizations we have makes Lusternia feel empty. If it wasn't for some OOC and alliance clans I would probably have left the game all together thinking wow this place is dead. In that way I think we missed the mark with the new guilds, while you did reduce some clutter it was not ambitious enough, it should have really returned Lusternia back to a 3 nation system. I feel the current alliances are the level of activity I should be seeing on CT and CWHO and the current nations should have been levels I see on GT and GWHO.

    Orders also seem to be lacking in direction in many places. In the current design of orders, orders pretty much die the moment the divine is nolonger paying attention (busy or gone) or quite often cause 1 player stops playing. There needs to be a way for new player to learn about and even join an order without having to find that 1 player or hope the divine is still active. There needs to be a way to get a new player assigned to voice/inner circle even when a divine is gone for longer periods of time. Steingrim had some great ideas about this including having NPC High priests that could be controlled by other admins (within reason of course).


    Also on the count of Toxic people, I think players that keep talking about toxic people should look a bit more at their own behavior. I have found many people accusing others of being toxic often engage in similar behavior. Eg. If you continously engage in a conflict mechanic, don't be surprised the other side will keep doing the same and hunting you for it. If you continiously RP offending people, don't be surprised those people get offended and will not just drop it. If you continiously break seperation between alts, don't expect people not go you traitor mode. Lusternia has safe zones for pvp (though hunting zones do dwindle), it has snub, tells off, ignoring loyalsays when you need that breather from certain other players and so on. And for the love of god, stop trying to rally people oocly to your cause against another player, once people take issues to OOC cliques they become near impossible to resolve.

    Also and I'll stop with this, in my early novice days people like Murphy and Yrael were considered toxic, yet the time of Yrael robbing me blind and the RP that followed from that and Murphy randomly jumping me on the isle of light and making me sneak around to do the sands quest are some of the most memorable times I have had in this game, even though I ICly whined about those things back in the day.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Esoneyuna said:



    Also on the count of Toxic people, I think players that keep talking about toxic people should look a bit more at their own behavior. I have found many people accusing others of being toxic often engage in similar behavior. Eg. If you continously engage in a conflict mechanic, don't be surprised the other side will keep doing the same and hunting you for it.
    Just so we're on the same page here....your opinion is that if someone consistently goes out of their way to cause trouble for someone else, on a daily irl basis, that second person is just as bad for returning the favor. Right?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna
    Shaddus said:
    Esoneyuna said:



    Also on the count of Toxic people, I think players that keep talking about toxic people should look a bit more at their own behavior. I have found many people accusing others of being toxic often engage in similar behavior. Eg. If you continously engage in a conflict mechanic, don't be surprised the other side will keep doing the same and hunting you for it.
    Just so we're on the same page here....your opinion is that if someone consistently goes out of their way to cause trouble for someone else, on a daily irl basis, that second person is just as bad for returning the favor. Right?
    I am saying a lot of people in lusty think they are the second person when in fact they are the first type of person.
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