EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Do they still start the game defaulted as human, or some nebulous "Not a race yet" thing?
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to make a "newbie" race. Not human, everyone starts as one, you get the racechange at level ten, and it has a decent xp bonus.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Alternative would be the old suggestion that you pop out as the race for your org (maybe, effectively, flip a coin for Hallifax), unless of course you also don't choose that any more.
Explained away as you being confused in the portal and just latching on to the most common race for your home. Of course, the current IC explanation probably involves "Others".
Yeah, we purposefully made class and race a task so the newbie can choose at their own time. From our own experience, many newbies do tend to get frustrated or overwhelmed when dropped into being hurried to make that decision.
While it is ok to leave it at the newbie's own time, at the moment you don't even introduce the concept. I took that newbie to the point where I nolonger get unlimited race changes and races was never brought up once. Same for classes. Which is also why I suggested leaving it at the collegium which is something people can do at their own pace.
The fact I as both a long term player and someone that ran through your newbie quest from scratch don't even know about tasks should also tell you how effective that system is.
Esoneyuna said: I took that newbie to the point where I nolonger get unlimited race changes and races was never brought up once. Same for classes.
@Esoneyuna You got all the way up to Level 30 without race or class getting brought up? That's definitely concerning. Did you level up that far in a matter of hours, days, weeks?
Maybe before a newbie hits Level 30 there could be a warning that comes up, eg: "You will soon reach Level 30. This is your last chance to change your race and class as often as you like for free."
I got a lot of 'hints' messages about doing various tasks. And choosing a race is one of said tasks. Though I don't think I knew I could change it an unlimited amount of times.
Esoneyuna said: I took that newbie to the point where I nolonger get unlimited race changes and races was never brought up once. Same for classes.
@Esoneyuna You got all the way up to Level 30 without race or class getting brought up? That's definitely concerning. Did you level up that far in a matter of hours, days, weeks?
Maybe before a newbie hits Level 30 there could be a warning that comes up, eg: "You will soon reach Level 30. This is your last chance to change your race and class as often as you like for free."
In 1 night so 4-5 hours. I never got hints about race or class during that time.
@Esoneyuna Wow, I'm a lot slower than that. Did you use anything to help level up, like cookies or going up to astral?
In any case it's a huge issue if newbies are passing Lvl 30 without being able to experiment with race or class. Maybe 4 total heads-up – on reaching Lvl 5, 15, 25, and 29 – that you can't change for free anymore after Lvl 30? What do you think? @Estarra, would that be doable?
Meanwhile the CG scrolls should be updated to warn newbies about this, and more experienced players should keep an eye out if they take a newbie hunting. I'll post in the Glom discord.
Why not a mix of both? As long as you are at or under 30, or if less than 50 hours playtime, it is a free switch. This way you cover fast levelers and people who hang out figuring out how other aspects of the game work before they really get into leveling / the skill system.
@Esoneyuna Wow, I'm a lot slower than that. Did you use anything to help level up, like cookies or going up to astral?
In any case it's a huge issue if newbies are passing Lvl 30 without being able to experiment with race or class. Maybe 4 total heads-up – on reaching Lvl 5, 15, 25, and 29 – that you can't change for free anymore after Lvl 30? What do you think? @Estarra, would that be doable?
Meanwhile the CG scrolls should be updated to warn newbies about this, and more experienced players should keep an eye out if they take a newbie hunting. I'll post in the Glom discord.
I was just checking out the newbie stuff so it is a throw away alt with no special stuff like arties or cookies, I was also doing it at a time nobody was around in my chosen org of experimentation and there were no guides online. No grouping/squad forming, certainly no astral as I did not learn -any- skills. I mainly did 1 side (the non tainted one) of the pools which gets me to level 20. Then I did collegium except power and planar, then bards, scholars, pilgrims, some easy quests.
In fact the only non quest related hint I seem to have gotten was to go to the collegium.
Prolonging free switching certainly would help in allowing people to experiment.
Seconding @Esoneyuna, esp in light of the new intro and pools where people are earning xp. I love @Xenthos's suggestion, but might suggest 25 hrs instead of 50. I'm relatively slow and I easily got to Lvl 50 in under 20 hrs. What are other people's experiences?
Or maybe alternatively, you remain a newbie until you've completed X tasks?
It's a great idea, but I prefer Xenthos's. People who blaze thru leveling will probably blaze thru tasks, too, for the rewards without necessarily learning them or having a chance to spend lots of time experimenting. And in theory if you hold off on just one task needed to graduate newbiehood, you could keep taking advantage of newbie boons like portals even if you're an experienced player, which is kind of op.
Or maybe alternatively, you remain a newbie until you've completed X tasks?
It's a great idea, but I prefer Xenthos's. People who blaze thru leveling will probably blaze thru tasks, too, for the rewards without necessarily learning them or having a chance to spend lots of time experimenting. And in theory if you hold off on just one task needed to graduate newbiehood, you could keep taking advantage of newbie boons like portals even if you're an experienced player, which is kind of op.
This was literally my first thought, like if you have unlimited race changes while a newbie then free cameo?
Few things I've noticed about this new intro that are minor quirks. I've been through it three times now and believe I have a firm understanding of the mechanics that go on.
Tasks -
Tasks are a great way to guide the player, but the way they currently work often leads to the FAQ we get on the Newbie channel - those being class and race. The reason these get so overlooked is because the 'Hints' being received are not random from those tasks that are not completed, nor by any real priority. Instead, it finds the first task that is not completed (numerical order) and constantly pings about the one thing only. Thusly, if someone is constantly competing in the Pools for the limited resources (more on this next) then they're going to sky rocket in level without ever getting beyond 4 (Arysian). Task 5 is Collegium to Valedictorian, and Task 6 is Newton. This means they are only reminded of how to level with introduction things rather than Class (Task 7), Race (Task 8), Guild (Task 9) or even Skills (Task 10) until it's a tad too late for them to qualify for the prior 6 tasks because they are now level 31 or greater.
Resources -
I wanted to make sure I had a good grasp on this before making any comments, and let me tell you, it is -rough- getting through the Pools, especially the Murky set. As it currently stands, only Magnagora would draw in people to aide the Lich Lord in the Murky Pool, despite Glomdoring having a huge part in the second set. That aside, as it is less important to the subject, is that there are only just enough mobs for a single person, regardless of side, to do their given task in that pool. So even if you have one person starting in Clear and the other in Murky, they are in direct competition at all times to complete their quests, which can be disrupted by even a single mob being taken away. Beyond this, they take upwards of 20 minutes to respawn (yes I actually used a stopwatch to time the exact moment I killed something and for it to respawn, with an error of anywhere between 4 seconds missed due to me IH'ing every 5 seconds to see if it returned) which then causes people to wait and possibly compete again for resources.
Solutions -
I'd like to either see the pools be instanced like the actual Garden of the Moirae is, or the previous introductions were, to reduce the amount of competition just to get through the tutorial or increase the respawn rates to make it seem less punishing if someone kills the one thing you are waiting on. Along with this, the second pool specifically where you have to gather the council of NPCs is devastating for this. I purposefully went in at the same time as another to see if doing my part (killing the named centaurs) would interrupt them. It did and they had to come kill my named npc to get their centaur back, rinse and repeat.
Secondly I'd like the tasks to either be re-ordered to push for race and class with the current 'Hints' system in place, or for the 'Hints' to just point at TASK LIST in general as a reminder so that they run the command and see those options are available.
@Lycidas said: if someone is constantly competing in the Pools for the limited resources (more on this next) then they're going to sky rocket in level without ever getting beyond 4 (Arysian). Task 5 is Collegium to Valedictorian, and Task 6 is Newton.
This is a really important point. Once you've finished Pools, Collegium, and Newton, you're most likely going to be well past Lvl 31 and picking/changing race and class is a hassle. Plus, it's ideal to have a class *before* Collegium and Newton, and preferably even before the Pools, in order to have more fun, pick the right class for you, and learn how to use your skills and weapons.
In the long term, I would suggest having newbies briefly select a preliminary class during the newbie intro. Before sending you to kill the rats, Atropos could give you a choice of generic weapons:
a wooden lute (bard)
a nature talisman carried by forest animals (druid)
a current of cosmic energy (guardian)
a blast of fire magic (mage)
your own fists and feet (monk)
a steel sword (warrior)
a nature talisman carried by ethereal fae (wiccan)
For a given player, this list would only include archetypes from the org you chose. Atropos says that you need to pick one for now but can easily change it after you've passed her test. You pick a weapon, you automatically gain the skillset of that class, and Atropos TELLs you the right command to use to attack the rats. Then you get to put your shiny new toy to work on the pests.
Right away, newbies start using a class weapon, and they have some idea of what the various classes in their org look like. Imo something like this would be definitely superior to the claymore, which is not immersive and confusing to transition away from. The claymore is so strong, it's pointless to try out the various specific class weapons.
What do people think about reducing some of the xp gain from the newbie intro, the Pools, and/or some of the tasks? Compounded by tasks, it's easy to gain Lvl 5 just thru the newbie intro and get to Lvl 15-20 just thru the Pools, then you show up at Newton after the Collegium and you're already in the mid to late 20s, if not past 31 and no longer able to go to Newton.
You used to leave the newbie intro at Lvl 1 and arrive in Newton around Lvls 1-5, depending on whether you went to the Collegium first. But maybe newbiehood should just be extended longer, like we were discussing earlier, instead of reducing xp gain?
It's not that the claymore is strong, it's that everything you hit has less health than wet paper. The idea behind the mini class weapons is nice, but at that point we're back at what they were attempting to do with the creation of the tasks, not have someone make a class choice right away. As for experience gains, they're fine if you're only having to do things once and not competing for resources. I was leaving the Pools at level 15, 16 if I left Human on and didn't just pick a race immediately. Also I'm pretty certain there was a mention of increasing Newton's level cap when this new intro was being beta tested, that once it was implemented, Newton would go up from 30 to 40 or some such.
EDIT: Context for the claymore, it does 1/4 damage of a masterweapon claymore, and we know how much warriors prefer to use other weapons!
I finally got off my lazy butt and went through the Pools quests. The "good" side, if it matters. Overall, the series of quests were really well done. I felt like it introduced the mechanics of the game really well, with a decent amount of difficulty, but not too much. I'm going to list the things I noticed, which aren't complaints so much as advice.
1. At no point does it mention anything about needing to sip. I played through as a newbie with no knowledge beyond what was provided, and ended up being influenced out by an Aquamancer on Itecia at one point because I ran out of ego. I had vials, but hadn't learned Curing nor had I been told that influencing had a cost in any way, unless I missed it.
2. In the Gloriana quest (I think this was my favorite part), it kept prompting me to kill specific beasts to summon Council members, but sometimes it took several kills. Maybe put something about it taking more than one to anger them? Could the items you get be slightly changed to enchants, for instance the bracelet explaining how a levitation enchantment helps you from falling down.
I'm also not sure if this part of the intro explains why the Centaurs are fleeing Gloriana, except for the end where it mentions the taint taking over that small part. The section about the origin of the harpies was a nice touch.
3. Lucinda was obviously a koi fish, and was stunningly well designed. End of story.
4. When on Itecia but headed to the other isle for cogs, it would be nice if we could get a sign showing which isle we're on. I went back and forth between isles a few times.
5. After helping the mages, seeing Marilynth's sacrifice and finishing the Pools quests, I was deposited back at the Portals area. I didn't receive any sort of direction as to what to do next until I wandered around for several minutes, when my hints kicked in.
Overall, I really enjoyed this intro. The only actual complaint I had is that as someone who has played the game and knows the history reasonably well, I felt like the series of quests were...disjointed. You're throwing several events which are, yes, tangentially connected, all at a person who may not have read the history. Then, you're seeing what generally amounts to the end of said event, but no explanation as to what actually caused her to have to sacrifice herself. Probably not that big of a deal.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
1. At no point does it mention anything about needing to sip.
Important issue that several people have pointed out now. Any ideas for fixing it? I figure it would be a big help to give newbies a hint that they should SIP <health/mana/bromides> when they run low, maybe for the first 10 lvls or so. Alternatively, learning to sip from vials could be its own task.
This could be done if the Skills (Task 10) was put up front, so that they go to learn the 9 Discipline it takes to get Curing, which will help them longterm and go over such topics.
It's not that the claymore is strong, it's that everything you hit has less health than wet paper.
I agree, that's why I proposed lowering xp gain. Increasing health of mobs slows down the quest but would do nothing to change the issue that you get really high xp from it, long before you hit Newton and your other tasks, and possibly before you get a chance to experiment with races/classes. Besides, starting newbies out grinding risks disengaging them.
My point about the claymore is that it discourages many newbies from experimenting with other classes and learning to use their class weapon. As a druid I kept using my claymore until over Circle 50, which is basically an abuse, bc it was a lot better than my basic attack. When it finally decayed, I realized I wanted to change class to a more bashing friendly skillset, and it cost me a ton of lessons. I considered quitting or starting with a new char, which defeats the point of free changes for newbies.
at that point we're back at what they were attempting to do with the creation of the tasks, not have someone make a class choice right away.
No one's saying we should go back to making someone who's never heard of Lusternia choose from 5 different classes presented in terms of dense lore and a huge amount of complex skillsets. The concern is that starting entirely without any class and no class specific attacks could be erring on the opposite extreme. The class system is an essential part of Lusternia, and how can newbies take advantage of changing class easily if they don't start picking one until they're not a newbie anymore? A quick, preliminary choice could be a happy medium.
As for experience gains, they're fine if you're only having to do things once and not competing for resources.
Good point. If that's the case, newbs lvling too quickly could be fixed by doubling or tripling the amount of mobs rather than reducing xp. I'll test this out. Still, the xp gain would also have to remain reasonable for newbies who do both pools quests.
there was a mention of increasing Newton's level cap when this new intro was being beta tested, that once it was implemented, Newton would go up from 30 to 40 or some such.
I heard about that too, and I really hope they don't do that. By Lvl 30 I was slicing thru Newton mobs like butter. Increasing the cap could be bad for lower lvl folks as the Lvl 40 players empty out areas and kill quest NPCs (eg Molly), and it would also be bad for the Lvl 40 players who should really be hunting elsewhere at this point to get decent xp, gold, and questing experience.
It seems to me that anything over 35 should not be a "newbie" lvl. When it becomes easier and easier to reach higher lvls as new areas and opportunities for newbies to lvl are created, we have a degree of level inflation. It's not necessarily a bad thing but the game still needs to stay balanced. It's important to ease into slower leveling gradually. Newbies who get to Lvl 50 in a few days with a bunch of wondercrystals and credits will get frustrated and feel deprived when it takes much longer to get to Lvl 75, let alone demi.
Giving newbies heaps of rewards in the first few RL days and then introducing a long grind also messes with the economy, introduces strong incentives for cheating with newbie alts, and makes it harder to separate newbies who are dedicated to the org from people who are going to leave the instant they get bored, which messes with advancement procedures.
Well, Newton suffers the same problem of everything having the health pool of wet paper. A possible solution would be treat base floor Newton (Caverns) as a place for 1-11, Lolliprin/Smoke Mountain as 11-21, and the battlefield at the top as 21-31 for experience and difficulty (ie health pools). If something along these lines, see tiering rather than actual suggested tiers, then expanding upon Newton to have a higher cap can be done without causing too many issues.
Also, this may just be a Magnagora thing, but even when I started, I was already level 60 in my first day without any extra experience buffs in roughly 5 hours of play. Sure I had an understanding of how the game works, but I left Newton at 31 and did the power quest a few times. My personal thoughts on what defines a "newbie" isn't level anymore, but time played, since when the new guild system came about, the NOV and COL ranks disappeared. An IRE transplant is going to pick up on mechanics faster than someone picking up their first MUD, but slower than an alt character who already plays this.
This could be done if the Skills (Task 10) was put up front, so that they go to learn the 9 Discipline it takes to get Curing, which will help them longterm and go over such topics.
Learning skills is a really tedious inert process, so I kind of like that it's listed later, so newbies don't get a boring intro to Lusty. If it's not feasible to just make Curing an inept skill and have hints to turn it on from the start (and possibly move Clotting later to be the novice skill in discipline), then it might be preferable to have sipping vials be its own task.
treat base floor Newton (Caverns) as a place for 1-11, Lolliprin/Smoke Mountain as 11-21, and the battlefield at the top as 21-31 for experience and difficulty (ie health pools)
I think that would be ideal, and that's what it was like years ago. It seems that a lot has happened around Newton to make newbies stronger, but Newton's difficulty hasn't been scaled up to keep pace
this may just be a Magnagora thing, but even when I started, I was already level 60 in my first day without any extra experience buffs in roughly 5 hours of play.
Yeah, that sounds relatively common. It's an important point too that the city power quests give much more xp than the commune power quests (and are longer and harder for that reason). Might be worth re-examining now that there are general balance issues. Lvl 60 took me two or more RL days of playtime seven or so years ago, but it's easily 5x to 8x faster these days. I don't think it's good for the game when newbies can burn through up to Lvl 30-60 in a matter of hours without going out of their way or using buffs. What do other players think?
Magnagora's power quest is the most "difficult" (and generates the most experience). I used spectres for leveling even way back when I was grinding towards 80, handing them in for gold and extra experience was quite profitable.
Comments
Explained away as you being confused in the portal and just latching on to the most common race for your home. Of course, the current IC explanation probably involves "Others".
Maybe before a newbie hits Level 30 there could be a warning that comes up, eg: "You will soon reach Level 30. This is your last chance to change your race and class as often as you like for free."
In any case it's a huge issue if newbies are passing Lvl 30 without being able to experiment with race or class. Maybe 4 total heads-up – on reaching Lvl 5, 15, 25, and 29 – that you can't change for free anymore after Lvl 30? What do you think? @Estarra, would that be doable?
Meanwhile the CG scrolls should be updated to warn newbies about this, and more experienced players should keep an eye out if they take a newbie hunting. I'll post in the Glom discord.
It's a great idea, but I prefer Xenthos's. People who blaze thru leveling will probably blaze thru tasks, too, for the rewards without necessarily learning them or having a chance to spend lots of time experimenting. And in theory if you hold off on just one task needed to graduate newbiehood, you could keep taking advantage of newbie boons like portals even if you're an experienced player, which is kind of op.
- a wooden lute (bard)
- a nature talisman carried by forest animals (druid)
- a current of cosmic energy (guardian)
- a blast of fire magic (mage)
- your own fists and feet (monk)
- a steel sword (warrior)
- a nature talisman carried by ethereal fae (wiccan)
For a given player, this list would only include archetypes from the org you chose. Atropos says that you need to pick one for now but can easily change it after you've passed her test. You pick a weapon, you automatically gain the skillset of that class, and Atropos TELLs you the right command to use to attack the rats. Then you get to put your shiny new toy to work on the pests.Right away, newbies start using a class weapon, and they have some idea of what the various classes in their org look like. Imo something like this would be definitely superior to the claymore, which is not immersive and confusing to transition away from. The claymore is so strong, it's pointless to try out the various specific class weapons.
You used to leave the newbie intro at Lvl 1 and arrive in Newton around Lvls 1-5, depending on whether you went to the Collegium first. But maybe newbiehood should just be extended longer, like we were discussing earlier, instead of reducing xp gain?
1. At no point does it mention anything about needing to sip. I played through as a newbie with no knowledge beyond what was provided, and ended up being influenced out by an Aquamancer on Itecia at one point because I ran out of ego. I had vials, but hadn't learned Curing nor had I been told that influencing had a cost in any way, unless I missed it.
2. In the Gloriana quest (I think this was my favorite part), it kept prompting me to kill specific beasts to summon Council members, but sometimes it took several kills. Maybe put something about it taking more than one to anger them? Could the items you get be slightly changed to enchants, for instance the bracelet explaining how a levitation enchantment helps you from falling down.
I'm also not sure if this part of the intro explains why the Centaurs are fleeing Gloriana, except for the end where it mentions the taint taking over that small part. The section about the origin of the harpies was a nice touch.
3. Lucinda was obviously a koi fish, and was stunningly well designed. End of story.
4. When on Itecia but headed to the other isle for cogs, it would be nice if we could get a sign showing which isle we're on. I went back and forth between isles a few times.
5. After helping the mages, seeing Marilynth's sacrifice and finishing the Pools quests, I was deposited back at the Portals area. I didn't receive any sort of direction as to what to do next until I wandered around for several minutes, when my hints kicked in.
Overall, I really enjoyed this intro. The only actual complaint I had is that as someone who has played the game and knows the history reasonably well, I felt like the series of quests were...disjointed. You're throwing several events which are, yes, tangentially connected, all at a person who may not have read the history. Then, you're seeing what generally amounts to the end of said event, but no explanation as to what actually caused her to have to sacrifice herself. Probably not that big of a deal.
My point about the claymore is that it discourages many newbies from experimenting with other classes and learning to use their class weapon. As a druid I kept using my claymore until over Circle 50, which is basically an abuse, bc it was a lot better than my basic attack. When it finally decayed, I realized I wanted to change class to a more bashing friendly skillset, and it cost me a ton of lessons. I considered quitting or starting with a new char, which defeats the point of free changes for newbies.
No one's saying we should go back to making someone who's never heard of Lusternia choose from 5 different classes presented in terms of dense lore and a huge amount of complex skillsets. The concern is that starting entirely without any class and no class specific attacks could be erring on the opposite extreme. The class system is an essential part of Lusternia, and how can newbies take advantage of changing class easily if they don't start picking one until they're not a newbie anymore? A quick, preliminary choice could be a happy medium.
I heard about that too, and I really hope they don't do that. By Lvl 30 I was slicing thru Newton mobs like butter. Increasing the cap could be bad for lower lvl folks as the Lvl 40 players empty out areas and kill quest NPCs (eg Molly), and it would also be bad for the Lvl 40 players who should really be hunting elsewhere at this point to get decent xp, gold, and questing experience.
It seems to me that anything over 35 should not be a "newbie" lvl. When it becomes easier and easier to reach higher lvls as new areas and opportunities for newbies to lvl are created, we have a degree of level inflation. It's not necessarily a bad thing but the game still needs to stay balanced. It's important to ease into slower leveling gradually. Newbies who get to Lvl 50 in a few days with a bunch of wondercrystals and credits will get frustrated and feel deprived when it takes much longer to get to Lvl 75, let alone demi.
Giving newbies heaps of rewards in the first few RL days and then introducing a long grind also messes with the economy, introduces strong incentives for cheating with newbie alts, and makes it harder to separate newbies who are dedicated to the org from people who are going to leave the instant they get bored, which messes with advancement procedures.
I think that would be ideal, and that's what it was like years ago. It seems that a lot has happened around Newton to make newbies stronger, but Newton's difficulty hasn't been scaled up to keep pace
Yeah, that sounds relatively common. It's an important point too that the city power quests give much more xp than the commune power quests (and are longer and harder for that reason). Might be worth re-examining now that there are general balance issues. Lvl 60 took me two or more RL days of playtime seven or so years ago, but it's easily 5x to 8x faster these days. I don't think it's good for the game when newbies can burn through up to Lvl 30-60 in a matter of hours without going out of their way or using buffs. What do other players think?