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Consolidating currencies & markets (credits, ikons, curios, crystals)
Hey all,
Can I propose a bit of a big project, but one that I think would help enormously in making all the various side-systems of economies in Lusternia a bit easier to see and interact with? I really like the idea behind the new CURIOMARKET commands, but good gods is it difficult to navigate (which probably is the result of CURIO commands being super complex to navigate).
I'd like to suggest that we consolidate all these different trading systems and currencies into a standard syntax, with in-built help information, so that it's a lot clearer about how to make use of them. I'd also like to suggest that for objects which are being physically traded between characters (ikons, curios, crystals), this should be integrated with our existing shop system so that we aren't making completely separate interfaces for no good reason.
Here are some example commands I'd like to recommend:
First, CURRENCY just to summarise all the in-game money you have attached to this character
Next, CURRENCY FULL (or REPORT or DETAIL or whatever works) gives a breakdown for each category
To consolidate CREDITS FOR SALE with other currencies, maybe we could have a CURRENCY EXCHANGE RATES (optionally specifying a particular currency for all offers):
To help understand what exactly you can do differently with each currency, let's have a CURRENCY OPTIONS command, which clearly spells out what you can do with them and any specific numbers about how it will be converted or randomized:
Specifically as relates to curios:
- Do away with 'Partials'. We can virtually calculate how many pieces of a set we have, and the manual activity of creating a partial first doesn't seem to add anything useful to me.
- Add a command to quickly show duplicate pieces that are currently owned (because we are likely to want to trade/rub these always)
- Add a command to quickly show missing pieces for a collection (because we are likely to want to source & buy these)
To consolidate curio/ikon trading back into the shop system, and bring it up to date:
- Add curio pieces and ikons as items that can be stocked in city & manse shops for sale, and priced for sale in gold or credits
- Add a shop upgrade item that allows city & manse shops to manage buy orders for items, ikons and curio pieces.
For example:
And to handle buy orders, which would either use generic nouns for tradeskill items or specific ikon/curio ids as per the current markets:
Now, yes, I'm aware this isn't as easy as it all sounds - and it's not a small request... but goodness, one of the things that is most confusing about Lusternia is how to keep up with all these artifacts and systems and different economies... and I think this consolidation exercise would be very much worth it!
Can I propose a bit of a big project, but one that I think would help enormously in making all the various side-systems of economies in Lusternia a bit easier to see and interact with? I really like the idea behind the new CURIOMARKET commands, but good gods is it difficult to navigate (which probably is the result of CURIO commands being super complex to navigate).
I'd like to suggest that we consolidate all these different trading systems and currencies into a standard syntax, with in-built help information, so that it's a lot clearer about how to make use of them. I'd also like to suggest that for objects which are being physically traded between characters (ikons, curios, crystals), this should be integrated with our existing shop system so that we aren't making completely separate interfaces for no good reason.
Here are some example commands I'd like to recommend:
First, CURRENCY just to summarise all the in-game money you have attached to this character
<>- CURRENCY You have the following in-game currency available: +--------------------------+----------------+----------------+----------------+ | | Bound | Unbound | Special | +--------------------------+----------------+----------------+----------------+ | Gold | | 13,374,349 | | | Credits | 25 | 124 | 50 | | Lessons | 180 | | 2000 | | Aethergoop | 5 | | | | Wonder Crystals | | 1 | | | Tzaraziko Coins | 2 | | | | Curio Pieces | | 76 | | | Ikons | | 24 | | +--------------------------+----------------+----------------+----------------+ You do not have any of the following: Racetrack Tickets
Next, CURRENCY FULL (or REPORT or DETAIL or whatever works) gives a breakdown for each category
<>- CURRENCY REPORT You have the following in-game currency available: +--------------------------+----------------+----------------+----------------+ | | Bound | Unbound | Special | +--------------------------+----------------+----------------+----------------+ | Gold | | 13,374,349 | | | Carried | | 20,000 | | | First Seren Trust | | 13,354,049 | | | Auction Escrow | | 300 | | | Credits | 25 | 124 | 50 | | With Character | 25 | 124 | | | Membership | | | 25 | | Retirement | | | 25 | | Lessons | 180 | | 2000 | | Unrestricted | 180 | | | | Primary Lessonpools | | | 400 | | Secondary Lessonpools | | | 1600 | | Aethergoop | 5 | | | | With Character | 5 | | | | Wonder Crystals | | 1 | | | Tzaraziko Coins | 2 | | | | With Character | 2 | | | | Curio Pieces | | 76 | | | Ikons | | 24 | | | Racetrack Tickets | 0 | | | +--------------------------+----------------+----------------+----------------+
To consolidate CREDITS FOR SALE with other currencies, maybe we could have a CURRENCY EXCHANGE RATES (optionally specifying a particular currency for all offers):
<>- CURRENCY EXCHANGE [CREDITS|AETHERGOOP|CRYSTALS|COINS|TICKETS] [FULL] ----[ Credits ]---------------------------------------------------------------- Best price: 24,000 gold per credit (20 available, 870 total for sale) Best offer: 8,000 gold per credit (120 available, 3000 total offers) Average exchange rate over 7 days: 21941 gold per credit ----[ Aethergoop ]------------------------------------------------------------- Best price: 400 gold per goop* (1203 available, 20000 total for sale) Best offer: 20 gold per goop* (200 available, 10000 total offers) Average exchange rate over 7 days: 691 gold per goop* ----[ Crystals ]--------------------------------------------------------------- Best price: 125 credits per crystal (2 available, 2 total for sale) Best offer: 50 credits per crystal (50 available, 800 total offers) Average exchange rate over 7 days: insufficient data ----[ Coins ]------------------------------------------------------------------ Best price: 20,000 gold per coin* (54 available, 120 total for sale) Best offer: 250 gold per coin* (2 available, 214 total offers) Average exchange rate over 7 days: 12039 gold per coin* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: * = transfer fee inclusive amount shown Use CURRENCY EXCHANGE [] FULL to see all market offers.
To help understand what exactly you can do differently with each currency, let's have a CURRENCY OPTIONS command, which clearly spells out what you can do with them and any specific numbers about how it will be converted or randomized:
<>- CURRENCY OPTIONS CREDITS
Credits may be used in the following ways:
----[ Conversions ]-------------------------------------------------------------
CREDITS CONVERT TO LESSONS
Currently awards 6 free lessons per credit converted. Credits must be bound.
CREDITS CONVERT TO BOUND Credits
Converts unbound credits to bound.
You will gain a bonus 2.5 lessons for the next 632 credits converted.
----[ Purchases ]----------------------------------------------------------------
ARTIFACTSHOP
Spend credits to purchase items listed with the ASHOP commands
TELEPORT AETHERPLEX
Spend credits at the aetherplex shops to purchase manse (housing) or ship upgrades
CUSTOMISE
Spend credits to uniquely customised the look or behaviour of your items
HELP CUSTOMBEASTS
Spend credits to obtain custom mounts and pets.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<>- CURRENCY OPTIONS COINS
----[ Games of Chance* ]---------------------------------------------------------
SPIN WHEEL
Travel to the Wheel of Tzaraziko on Avechna's Peak and gamble your coin in
exchange for bonus lessons, experience, divine favours, goop, more coins or
sometimes artifacts. Approximate chance:
70% chance of standard prize (avg 1-4 credits worth, eg. gold, goop, blessing)
25% chance of superior prize (avg 5-20 credits worth, eg. coin, present)
5% chance of awesome prize (avg 100 credits worth, eg. artifact)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* These results are highly unpredictable, and should be attempted with the understanding
that no refunds are available for unlucky outcomes.
Specifically as relates to curios:
- Do away with 'Partials'. We can virtually calculate how many pieces of a set we have, and the manual activity of creating a partial first doesn't seem to add anything useful to me.
- Add a command to quickly show duplicate pieces that are currently owned (because we are likely to want to trade/rub these always)
- Add a command to quickly show missing pieces for a collection (because we are likely to want to source & buy these)
To consolidate curio/ikon trading back into the shop system, and bring it up to date:
- Add curio pieces and ikons as items that can be stocked in city & manse shops for sale, and priced for sale in gold or credits
- Add a shop upgrade item that allows city & manse shops to manage buy orders for items, ikons and curio pieces.
For example:
<>- PRICE CURIO PIECE 2819 2 CREDITS
You have listed your Middle Centre Ear curio piece for 2 credits, and it has been
removed from your curio list.
<>- WARES
Proprietor: Radiant Soul, Elryn Greythane.
--------(Item)-------(Description)----------------------------(Stock)-(Price)-
vest62135: a green leather vest of the white tree 6 8500gp
ikon68944: the Calico Cat of Improbable Jests 1 2000gp
ikon68769: a Lord of the Oceans 1 **ANY**
curio2819: Middle Centre Ear (Face) 1 2cr
curio5950: First Candle (Light) 1 **ANY**
<>- PROBE 5950
********************[ SILVER CANDELABRA FIRST CANDLE ]*********************
ID: 5950
Curio Set: Silver Candelabra (#81)
Part: First Candle (#811)
Collection: Light (#18)
Type: Damage Enhancement Bonus
Power: 1 Divinus & 1 Electrical
Listed Price: Any curio piece
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And to handle buy orders, which would either use generic nouns for tradeskill items or specific ikon/curio ids as per the current markets:
<>- PURCHASE 2 TRADEITEM JEWELLERY ENERGYCUBE FOR 2000 GOLD WITH 20 MINMONTHS
You have created a new buy offer for 1 Jewellery EnergyCube at 2000 gold.
You have specified a minimum number of months remaining as: 20.
You pay a list fee of 200 gold to your shopkeeper, deducting 2200 gold in total.
<>- PURCHASE 1 TRADEITEM TAILORING GLOVES FOR 200 GOLD WITH 100 MINMONTHS AND 3 WARMTH
You have created a new buy offer for 1 Tailoring Gloves at 200 gold.
You have specified 'minimum number of months remaining' as: 100.
You have specified 'minimum warmth factor' as: 3.
You pay a list fee of 200 gold to your shopkeeper, deducting 400 gold in total.
<>- OFFERS
Proprietor: Radiant Soul, Elryn Greythane.
--------(Type)----(Details)-------------------------------(Quantity)-(Price)-
Jewellery: EnergyCube 2 2000gp
Tailoring: Gloves 1 200gp
Ikon: Princess Marilynth 1 200000gp
Curio: Lower Centre Ear (Face) 1 3cr
Now, yes, I'm aware this isn't as easy as it all sounds - and it's not a small request... but goodness, one of the things that is most confusing about Lusternia is how to keep up with all these artifacts and systems and different economies... and I think this consolidation exercise would be very much worth it!
5
(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
It may be worth asking, though, for each proposed change, and for the effect of multiple changes together: Would this make the system simpler or more complicated?
Several of these commands read to me like they might make great help files, though they may be too much clutter for a command. For example, adding HELP CURRENCY and HELP CURRENCY OPTIONS would be incredibly helpful!
The idea of sellable ikons and curios in shops is great!
It may improve both the Plex and the curiomarket if ikons and curios just being sold for gold get moved to the Plex and the rest remain on the curiomarket. I wonder if selling items for credits in player shops is realistic to code and if it would inadvertently offer opportunities for abusing alts.
That said, it might also be interesting to make the curiomarket a physical place, like the Plex, with somewhat different rules. Special shops specific to selling curios or ikons could work as a great goldsink.
On the idea of separate shops for curios/ikons, that could work too.
I think I prefer updating the primary system to work with new variants, rather than having completely separate systems in general, but I don't really mind as long as it's a bit more 'in-character'. If most of the dynamic trading economy in Lusternia is happening via invisible transfer commands which are mostly out of character and don't involve shops, goldsinks, character effort or interactions... then I think we're missing an opportunity to make the game itself more interesting and engaging.
But yes, I'm not underestimating the size of code change required to update shops to handle these systems. I just think the change is worth it. If they've been coded so that they aren't compatible with the rest of Lusternia's mechanics, then that's unfortunate because the fix is a bit bigger, but that doesn't mean it isn't doable.
You could also potentially add, effectively, vouchers to bookbinding(ikons) and artisan(curio pieces) with some nice theme behind them.
You could use a blank voucher to remove an "ethereal item" from your list and link the voucher it. Those could then be sold in shops as they're now a tangible item and the recipient can use the voucher to add one of the linked items to the relevant list.
As long as the vouchers are searchable in shops for the item they contain seems like it'd be fine.
2. I thought all shops (including city ones) could be searched now via PORTAL syntax? Regardless, if game shops aren't working well as markets, shouldn't we try and improve them to be as usable as possible, rather than abandoning a rich in-character system in favour of a wholly OOC one?
If it's unreasonable for someone to need to go to the aetherplex or directories to search for the item they're looking for and it's unreasonable for shops to be the way to sell things, then the current state of shops is logically unreasonable.
My point is that it seems that a pretty significant proportion of interesting trading that occurs in Lusternia now revolves around these shadowy currencies and "non-physical" markets. And instead of being part of the immersive world that has been built, they sit in increasingly esoteric systems and syntaxes that are wholly outside of the systems that seem designed for trader type characters. That's fine for what it is, but I think it could be better if we draw those systems back in to the character driven markets, or at least consolidate them so that they are all visible in the same way. Even to the point of completely redesigning those in-character market mechanics so that they are working well, if you're suggesting they currently aren't.
I'd love to go even further and make sure tradeskills are somehow still engaged with the primary trading games, but maybe that's for another time.
Also, I don't know about other orgs, but Serenwilde seems to have had a decline in interest in shops for quite a while now. Providing more things to sell, more incentive to use shops could be part of improving the economy issues people have raised in the retention thread.
And with the "we should make things easier" argument... well there's a button in Secret World Legends that automatically buys more health potions no matter where I am, even if I'm in combat at the time, something like that would super make bashing a lot easier. (Not actually suggesting this, but the curiomarket is a bit weird when you consider we can't bet or bid on things outside the right rooms)
Like maybe some people would put their curios up but you can reasonably expect it'll stop when they don't sell (because people will go to the market first and may not even remember that the one they're looking for could be in shops)
I would also suggest that if everyone is now searching for things via PORTAL/CURIOMARKET like syntaxes, just make that standard across all shops anyway, without having to pay for it separately. The whole point is to make buying and selling and exchanging anything in Lusternia more straightforward, transparent and consistent.
There is the pretty big issue of aethershops though, the sheer number of them provides a massive supply and a simplicity that org shops are negatively compared to.
City shops: cost x amount of gold depending on the cities policies + x amount of gold per year for taxes (+ 1 million gold per expansion (+250 items each time) - shops start at 250 items, up to a max of 1000) (+ 1 million gold to then link it to the Aetherplex) The latter 2 of expansions and portal connection, however, are permanent and transfers with owners.
tying curios to being required to have a shop is a terrible idea, where a lot of the current player base still don't have their own shop, let alone new players that might want to dip their toes into the curio trade.
As for "setting up a stall"...
CURIOMARKET was set up to alleviate people being unable to find pieces or not able to meet with the person who has the piece. Once you know how to use it (@Xenthos is really good at explaining it btw) it's really easy to use. So really, putting your pieces on the curiomarket is like setting up your own stall. Your name isn't tied to it, so there'll be no bias of "Oh I don't like them, I need that piece but they're not having my credits" type of attitude.
Theres also already a CREDITS FOR SALE - again, selling credits, no names tied to it unless they advertise cheaper credits up on MARKET.
i agree with @Devora that a HELP CURRENCY / HELP CURRENCY OPTIONS would be a nice feature, though.
as for shops being dead in the cities, not enough people around to buy for one, no incentive to have a city shop (some taxes are high - I remember paying 7500 gold a year for taxes in Seren, Mag is 5000 and Halli I only paid 2500 - even still I don't make enough from the shop to cover the taxes.) It's also increasingly common for people to have a Doctoral Tam / Endowment / Demigod 2nd grade - so people are making what they need themselves when they can't find person of X trade. I've all the trades myself, but lately I've been making the effort to find someone else first to give them business / checking shops first before I give up and just do it myself.
EDIT: added in cost of shop exspanion of 4K goop
Also, when we're talking in another thread about wanting more interaction, I wouldn't rate a system highly for being impersonal.
In fact some of my more positive memories around curios were when Serens were working together to ensure that we could get the curios that we wanted. A system looped into shops could enable this.
Plus, economy has also been raised as a concern in the retention thread and it really looks like the economic issues are stemming from things being made too easy. Trying to maintain that ease seems like it'll only perpetuate the issue.
At least, that's what it sounds like to me.
I don't understand this fear of having to "hunt for the pieces in all of the shops" as opposed to "hunt for the pieces in all of the curiomarket". There's no suggestion here of removing search syntax or making it more difficult to find things by set, keyword, group, type, whatever.
All I'm saying is make it consistent with how you can search for, sell and make buy orders for all the other things in Lusternia. In other words, take the best features of curio trading, and make that a feature of trading generally.
Buy orders, type filtering, fulfillable searching - I love all these things, I want them to be applicable to all trading, not just curios via an off-market, non-standard syntax.
Similarly, even though things like dingbat dolls can potentially be traded between characters (again, I'm assuming these are in-character concepts), there's no integration of that into any market system that I'm aware of - I tried DOLLMARKET but didn't find anything!
I think there's a great opportunity here to make some of these trading systems part of the game, rather than outside of it and operating at a player-to-player level. There are some exceptions where that makes sense of course (trading some virtual currencies like credits is usually out-of-character), but in most cases, I'd like to think explaining to a potential player how the economy works in Lusternia doesn't require complex understanding of how 10 different currency systems are accessed and how 5 different market interface systems can be used. Ideally not "here is how you can buy from NPCs, here is how you can buy from shops, here is how you can buy crystals from players, here is how you can buy goop from players, here is how you can buy curios from players, here is how you can buy ikons from players", etc.
If I had a magic wand that didn't break things, I'd love to look at more substantial economic changes - for example,
- make increasing numbers of trades made in nation shops give some sort of temporary boon to an organisation rather than just being a drain on gold to encourage and reward mercantile characters,
- use tradeskill specialization to replace influence/bashing/aetherspace gold generation by requiring skilled characters to transform random item drops into purchases to encourage more interdependence and improve the profitability of tradeskills,
- give tradeoff customisation/prestige effects to functional tradeskill items to encourage selecting a well-described or thoughtfully mixed item for its secondary benefits rather than purely lowest cost
- but I'm less convinced about the impact these sorts of changes would have on the game more broadly and so want to concentrate on improving older systems with new functionality that is already shown to be working.I don't have any opposition to having more detailed personal reports. Though I personally see little value in having a readout for curios or ikons. Doing so probably would give some value to new players in that it may prompt them to look up those things. But once you have either I have not ever had a need to know the number. Including those sorts of numbers can be a possible source of lag depending on how the base system is set up.
As someone who are here (well not here but in Achaea) when the credit market went live, I'd feel a bit neglectful for not pointing out that the credit market directly led to the inflation of credit prices. Prior to the credit market, Achaea had decided that credits were worth a set price and while there was some variation based on your willingness to wait on a good deal, or a buyer's impatience that price on credits was very stable.
"- Do away with 'Partials'. We can virtually calculate how many pieces of a set we have, and the manual activity of creating a partial first doesn't seem to add anything useful to me."
But it does. It creates the category 'partials' which can help refine searches, limit information returned, and act as a notation of which curios you are interested in finishing. If anything it would be nice to do partial of one and perhaps change the term 'partial' to some more informative and intuitive one. It also stops accidental rubbing and trading of pieces you wish to keep.
"- Add a command to quickly show duplicate pieces that are currently owned (because we are likely to want to trade/rub these always)"
It would be nice to be able to do CURIO SUMMARY x on all curios and not have to resort to a non-filtered curio list. Unless @Xenthos I've missed a way to summarize just poteen pots for instance.
To the admin, moving curios into a shop to increase interaction seems like a very unlikely long-shot and poor use of coding resources. There may be valid reasons to move curios into shops, but interaction is not likely one of those.
@saran Market still provides for the occasional getting together to trade pieces. But I guarantee you, if i put pieces into a shop then players can drag their sorry arses over the shop and buy them without wasting my time.
As to where the economic issues stem from I'd say it is more the lack of supply lines and tradespeople wanting to be the sum of their entire supply chain. That coupled with the no real business downside of underselling just causes markets to collapse. Economy collapses because people don't need to sell for a profit.
However, if your answer is to make buying and selling painful in the game the result will likely be that some will simply stop playing, just like they did during the first big potions drought.
Any solutions need to not be on the backs of players who have no interest in playing traders or waiting for trades people to get to them. If people log into lusty and can't get what they need, many will just log back out.
Similarly, through mechanisms like auction house taxes you bump up minimum costs, especially where refinement stages exist that require the participation of multiple players.
One of the few incentives to sell for a profit beyond comm costs is shop taxes, aethershops remove this and given there are now a couple hundred of them. Couple this with the self-sufficiency issue it's really not all that difficult for someone that wants to, to drive the market down because the only thing they might need to do is charge for the comms.
(Ex. CURIOS LIST PIECES REDGENIES, CURIOS LIST PIECES PUPPIES, etc.)
CURIOS LIST PIECES <string>
(ex. CURIOS LIST PIECES POTEEN, CURIOS LIST PIECES GENIE, CURIO LIST PIECES DONKEY (some curios have a NONE collection but if you put in the SET name (stuffed donkey for czigany toy curio, then you'll get a return of pieces for that set only), CURIO LIST PIECES FEATHER (this one will show *all curios that have the string you input, not just the curio collection of))
this is is in regards to listing doubles. They still don't sort out to see if you have doubles together as it goes by numerical value, but at least you can narrow your search down via that.
PS: I didn't comment on the other currencies because I'm less familiar with the technicalities of them.