Clumsiness effect

Kalikai

A few days ago, there was a discussion involving some proposed changes that for the most part were generally viewed as ok moves.

The only thing that seemed to have some strong opposing views was what to do with clumsiness. 

Below are two ideas about what to do with clumsiness.

A few points I'd like to mention to consider while deciding.

1) Not every affliction needs to be effective against every class.
2) Either of the proposed ideas are something you are in total control of how it affects you. (This may not be true for a suggested alternative).
3) It's ok for an affliction to only be situationally useful.

The poll is anonymous, just trying to gauge one way or the other which way we should move.

Thanks for your input in advance.

Malayn

Before I vote....... is this also removing the effect of making parry fail or will that part be staying?

Snald

@Malarious the plan is to make anti parry and anti stance two different, separate afflictions

Maligorn

He's asking whether the natural chance to miss your parry is going away (so even if I parry chest 100, weapons might still go through). Off-topic ish but still worth discussing.

Kalikai

Parrying/Stancing would not be changing how they currently function.

Malayn

Actually not a fan at all of option 2. It'd be poison version of dodge. The person with clumsiness treats every other person as having dodge... then whoever else also has it. This is a monk dream to screw with people being able to ever hit them.

If not for nunchaku and tessenchi damage based insta, option 1 is easily the cleanest. Assuming this damage only applies to health though, it'd still only effect warriors/monks... which is fine outside the "insta".

Dys

Wouldn't the damage one hit bards and astrology meteor too? It looks a pretty big debuff.

Kalnid

Agree that 75% damage dealt reduction on an aff is kind of huge. Would prefer to see like -10/-10 instead.

Deichtine

One thing to keep in mind with the damage reduction malus us that if you compare it to other afflictions such as pacifism. Pacifism is 100% no damage or afflictions hitting you.

An affliction that hinders your offense to high levels is already a thing.

Malayn

This one would be a mental aff

Maligorn

Pacifism is also a hard stop on your offensive abilities. Compare pacifism stopping Thousandcuts entirely until it's cured, and clumsiness making Thousandcuts do no damage and wasting the power and burst.

Nicholo

How about let's make clumsiness stop all dodging things. Can't dodge if you're clumsy. Or make ninja signs to make shields if you're clumsy.  

Versalean

Would honestly rather let the Envoys or a group of PvPers otherwise selected make this decision rather than throwing it open to forums. Don't get me wrong, everyone should be able to discuss it, such as is happening, but dear gods do not let this decision lie in the hands of an anonymous forums poll.

Kalikai

Versalean said:

Would honestly rather let the Envoys or a group of PvPers otherwise selected make this decision rather than throwing it open to forums. Don't get me wrong, everyone should be able to discuss it, such as is happening, but dear gods do not let this decision lie in the hands of an anonymous forums poll.

  There have been requests that we be more engaging with the playerbase as a whole, especially since we're considering doing away with envoys and moving towards a different setup. 

   Ultimately, this is just information gathering, not final decision making. The final decision lies with the admin, particularly Estarra and Ianir.

Dys

Thinking about concerns with clumsiness messing with damage kills and wasting power and burst, would it work to make it just not affect damage for kills that already go through shields?

Then it would still be useful vs sustained damage.

Malayn

Lower the debuff from -25/-25 to something reasonable, and if things are fully broken for nunchaku and tess, just be open to making them ignore the effect for their insta. Since insta's dont tend to have to worry about specific damage values (they tend to be conditional only).

Kalikai

Why does -25/-25 seem unreasonable? The goal is to make it strong enough to potentially warrant the use of focus in certain situations.

In discussing on the discord channel yesterday, a player pushed forward the opinion that despite the effect, there wouldn't ever be a realistic situation where you would want to focus it off. The reasoning being that if you had enough slush affs to stick it on you, you were probably not attacking anyway and if you were attacking, you'd likely have the balance to just cure it off before it affected you. They said that in theory they could see it but in practice, it probably wasn't feasible to use clumsiness to debuff people because you likely had better options.



 

Malayn

It only truly effects the specific cases of damage "insta's", and big damage skills (nukes). The mental aff pool is already a combination of ways to die a horrible death, which means they will often take priority over something changing damage. As stated, very very few classes rely on actual damage, so the priority is low compared to addiction, anorexia, confusion, reckless, and paranoia. 

Having a 75% damage reduction is just a way to screw with specific instance skills or make very specific classes do less. I could see using it on a cantor during double damage, but would it ever serve a purpose against bards (using aurics), guardians, wiccans? Having it be -10/-10 still does something, without completing negative the artifacts that will go past 10, but doesn't have near the same impact on things. It is possible, with a considerable amount of setup, that a -10/-10 could still be mitigated to some extent. 

The affliction is so specific, it just introduces a situation where 2 guilds in the game have a 5s window they have to care about one aff no one else will. Being a lower value means you might be able to manage around it, without having to re-plan everything.

Most affliction pools are stupidly deadly, we got rid of inconvenience affs. Making every affliction focus worthy just means a problem when anything is stacked. We should not be running on the assumption every affliction needs a focus, or planning is less important than spamming.

Kalikai

Malarious said:

It only truly effects the specific cases of damage "insta's", and big damage skills (nukes). The mental aff pool is already a combination of ways to die a horrible death, which means they will often take priority over something changing damage. As stated, very very few classes rely on actual damage, so the priority is low compared to addiction, anorexia, confusion, reckless, and paranoia. 

As noted, that's the point - to make this affliction take priority over others at times. 

Malarious said:

Most affliction pools are stupidly deadly, we got rid of inconvenience affs. Making every affliction focus worthy just means a problem when anything is stacked. We should not be running on the assumption every affliction needs a focus, or planning is less important than spamming.

 I'm not sure this is true. I think making every affliction focus worthy makes curing strategy and planning much more important, which in turns makes offensive planning more reactive and important rather than just spamming. I suppose this is a subjective feeling on what goals we should be aiming for when it comes to combat in general. I think it's more interesting when you have to change strategies and adjust prios rather than just having one optimized strategy that's effective 100% of the time.

Kalikai

Another suggestion that came up, since the poll is currently split 50/50 (or was when I posted this).

What if clumsiness instead gave you a 50% chance on sprawling when trying to leave a room, if you managed to leave the room, you would be sprawled on entering the new room and it would reduce the rooting on the target that has it (unable to stand firm/rooted to the groun)?

Thoughts?

Kalnid

Would it also knock offbal or just prone?

Kalikai

Didn't really discuss - a quick 1s bal knock may be necessary to just stop standing and moving again.

Deichtine

You mean a 50% chance to fail leaving the room at all?

Deichtine

For normal movement or tumble as well?

Kalikai

Right, 50% chance to fall prone instead of leaving the room, and if you do leave the room, you'd fall prone on entering the room.

This would likely not affect tumble. It would only affect physical movement where you're physically 'walking/acting' from one room to the next. For instance, it would affect things like fear, beckon and leap but it wouldn't affect things like gust and rad.

This is all just idea phase, so details haven't really been worked out. Anything I'm saying here is subject to change depending on how we flesh it out, I'm just looking for initial discussion on the subject.

Dys

I like the theme of clumsiness making you fall down. With autocuring it wouldn't affect moving a single room much (0.1s built in lag to stand up?) but it would trip up autowalking/path track.

Versalean

@Kalikai - does the discussion start at the point that the poison will give clumsiness, and we're just deciding what clumsiness does? Or could it in fact be a different afflication altogether?

Kalikai

Yes, anatine gives clumsiness, and since the current functionality will likely be moved to calcise/dendroxin, clumsiness needs adjusting in response.

Tylwyth

Can Clumsiness just make you fall over and drop things?
Well, "drop" could.just be unwielding in this case. Maybe inflicting stupidity(due to a bump on the head when you fall). 

Versalean

Make it so clumsiness gives an equal chance for an attack to target any player in the room. That would convey the added benefit (imo) of making it disproportionately effective for use by the smaller team.

Kalnid

I like it in principle but find it just a little weird that you have a 50% chance to leave the room or not but the knockdown hits either way. I'm not super knowledgeable about this sort of thing though so grains of salt. Wasn't there an aff in the old system which did basically that, brief knockdown on movement? I want to say dizziness.