Clumsiness, Anti-parrying and Anti-stancing proposal

Kalikai

 A quick proposal to get some feedback and ideas on something we're thinking about implementing.

 We currently have a few things we'd like to address.

1) Calcise and Dendroxin have had no effect for quite some time now (probably a couple years at this point?). We'd like to make them useful again.
2) Anatine, which causes clumsiness is hard (impossible?) to get, and pretty vital to warriors and monks offenses. 

This proposal would ideally solve both these issues while adding some other useful effects.


1) Clumsiness would no longer stop anti-parry/anti-stance poison. It would instead be repurposed. The goal would be to have it be a strong enough affliction that it becomes a priority to cure in certain situations and be something you want to use at least situationally.
    - One option would be to give a pretty hefty damage debuff while afflicted with it (-25/-25?). 
    - Another option would be to have clumsiness give anyone afflicted with it a natural miss rate that would cause an attack to 'miss' and knock you off bal/eq while afflicted with it.

2) Calcise would become the anti-stancing poison for monks. (It used to give damagedlegs, so it makes sense that it would affect stancing). This would likely remain on slush balance. 
3) Dendroxin would become the anti-parrying poison for warriors. ( It used to give damagedarms, so it makes sense that it would affect parrying). This also would remain on slush balance.

Right now, the anti-parry/anti-stance afflictions would likely remain poison-only, but there would be the potential to make them something classes can give natively down the line.  This also splits up monks and warriors using the same poison to prevent blocking, and it forces more choice into poison usage for both warriors and monks.

Let us know what you think, good or bad. Please point out any potential issues. If you have good names for the anti-parry/stancing afflictions, feel free to suggest them as well. Based on feedback, we will either work on implementing this or scrapping it all together. We could push it out pretty quickly if it's something that most people approve of.

Thanks for your feedback in advance!

Shango

Seems fine, though wish it was Ice based :P Otherwise...way better for getting vs Anatine as it currently stands. Clumsiness returning to its old damage output debuff and nothing else seems best. 

Nicholo

Extreme hard pass on clumsiness making the afflicted have a % chance to miss. We have enough dodge and RNG mechanics in place. At some point skill can get dashed with luck. 

I’d suggest make it like Monk Eel Stance where you do diminished damage and still afflict on “stumble” but not a hard and complete miss.

Or let’s make clumsiness nullify rooting. Can’t maintain footing/ground. Lul.

Calcise sounds fine. It’ll just keep getting Beast/Neko Spat, I guess. Monks have other tools to deal with stancing and don’t really stack slush.

Dendroxin as a slush for warriors will hardly do anything. It’ll keep getting beast spat, too, if that’s the case. It would make more sense to make it an ice aff. Apply to body, whereas right now that just cures ablaze and burns? More ice curing priority manipulation and give Warriors options. They already have the hardest time.

Snald

The reason I said a miss effect vs a decreased damage was that it would not really affect some classes. Wiccans, for example, couldn't care less if they have decreased damage. Also I agree with anti parry being kind of useless as a slush poison.

Snald

Even monks won't miss damage much if that's all that the affliction does.

Xenthos

Please don't -25 damage malus.  Balance for that is very very hard especially in group settings, sensitivity already mucks with that and we don't need to make it worse.  Edit: Actually, you mean damage, not resist?  That is not so bad, though does nothing to classes that are not doing damage.

Stancing / parry poisons seem fine though (splitting it into two instead of one).

Kalikai

Nicholo said:

Extreme hard pass on clumsiness making the afflicted have a % chance to miss. We have enough dodge and RNG mechanics in place. At some point skill can get dashed with luck. 

Even when it's something you can cure and control whether it affects you or not? This statement confuses me because with this mechanic, you're in full control of it, where you can't control dodge. I think it's significantly different enough to not be really in the same class as dodge.

The reason calcise and dendroxin were initially removed was due to the fact that they were ice afflictions and they were drastically affecting wounding rates. It could be because they were more important afflictions, but I think an anti-parrying affliction would be equally as important to cure. Is the general feeling that adding one ice affliction poison will not push wounding rates too much faster? I think it's important to note that warriors are intended to be an attrition class that slowly builds to kill levels rather than a killing at the speed other classes acheive.

Deichtine

Hard no on any of them being on the ice balance.

Other than that suggestion pretty much cool with all suggestions. As long as they stay on the slush balance.

For warriors the change would have next to no practical difference really.

For monks it'd be a minor nerf to monks who had easy access to clumsy on their actions and bonus affs but it's such a small thing really I'm fine with it.

Xenthos

I'd rather spend time reworking warriors than trying to muck with things by adding necessary ice-balance poison curing.  In the short-term making it harder for people to keep up with wounding does get warriors to a point where they can actually do something, but on the flip-side, faster buildup means a longer / more difficult recovery (when you fall behind you can already spend a long time curing wounds).  It's just not an elegant solution, mostly just makes it all even messier than it already is imo.

Maligorn

Yeah, let's keep reworking warriors when they've already pushed out mage rework and Institute SR.

Shango

Calcise and Dendroxin removed as ice affs because they were random limb breakers....which means if you spammed them, you'd get up to 4 levels of affs before healed fully from one poison. If this change made anti-parry ice, it's one level, so 2s balance before removed as a variable. So hardly the same scale for consideration as the old impact.

Zagreus

Clumsiness: Strong no on the natural miss, dodge, balance knock, or anything similar. The massive temporary debuff is probably okay, perhaps setting buff to 0 or -10 might be more reasonable.

Calcise: seems fine 

Dendroxin: useless for most warriors unless they beast spit. For 2h warriors, envenoming on weapon does literally nothing as it is cured before next hit as the poison resolves after the warrior attack and not before. For 1h, they get one free parry bypass IF the first hit applies AND they don't shrug. Bypassing parry is rather important, and relegating this to beast spit to do a full hit (or combo for 1h) is too restrictive and inconsistent at every 12s. I'm also strongly against having this on ice cure, which makes it effectively mandatory for optimal wound building and then others would stack just to slow down ice curing in general.

Shango

Kalikai said:

 warriors are intended to be an attrition class that slowly builds to kill levels rather than a killing at the speed other classes acheive.

Also that...that is what is so wrong with Warriors when we also have next to no advantages over other classes to tank/shrug locking/hindering aff spams that others cannot get as well with all these wonder items. That pre-overhaul was arguably more powerful than post is a serious problem, even if the one strike affs (rng gods above) were mostly possible due to expensive artifacts, we were far more competitive than this current era. There's a reason almost no one effective goes Warrior, ruining the RP of the class to say nothing of the rest of the impact.

Still, off topic, apologies for that. For the most part, these changes will just force Beast Spit to a single poison anyway, so that point against just means the same as it was when it was Anatine-Clumsy offering the same boon, and people had some to use. So really this proposed change just gives both classes access to a poison to grant an effect (anti-stance/parry) that matters outside of the class's balancing interfered with access to (the difficulty of the quest with minor payout provided, making it near impossible to get any)   

Making it ice for Warriors, as a SINGLE application cure, does nothing to interfere with things any more than if a Warrior were beast spitting nothing but Pyrotoxin, which was changed to remove burns to give just ablaze instead to resolve that very concern of ice aff buildup (used to only give burns, not ablaze, now with ablaze, burns build if you ignore it only). So I feel the impact is far removed from the concerns of the old spammable limb breaking nature of the old functionality.

Clumsiness:

Never introduce anything that adds the horror of natural miss. While there'd be vindication letting EVERYONE 'enjoy' what pre-overhaul Warriors had to deal with...believe me you don't want that.

Malayn

Introducing them as ice poisons is a bad idea. Yay a different ice cure required poison that would have to be cured over wounds to avoid being screwed worse.  This is not a good plan.

While thinking about the cure for these, I actually wondered why it was an aff, not an effect. Instead of having to deal with curing these conditions, and having yet another spammable in the pile, why can't we just make them disable stance or parry for like a half second? Since attacks are done together generally anyway.  Could make the anti-stance effect be called "stumble", and the anti parry effect be called "twitch". Could give a single line that your legs seem to faulter when you would stance, or that they faulter in general (when given). Then a twitch in the arm could do the same to show why a parry failed, or a line about your shoulders twitching could be the warning that your parrys may fail. 

I would discourage piling more "must cure" affs in. And I say this when the current suggestion includes making anti-stance a mental aff, which nunchaku may actually like to use more too.

Shango

Well each Warrior spec HAS a passive ability to disable parry for a short time after being parried...problem is those effects are minimal at best. So making a poison an effect over aff just means the venom gives something superior to inherent class ability...

Also, can always 'just focus' the aff away, mm?

Steingrim

Malarious said:

Introducing them as ice poisons is a bad idea. Yay a different ice cure required poison that would have to be cured over wounds to avoid being screwed worse.  This is not a good plan.

While thinking about the cure for these, I actually wondered why it was an aff, not an effect. Instead of having to deal with curing these conditions, and having yet another spammable in the pile, why can't we just make them disable stance or parry for like a half second? Since attacks are done together generally anyway.  Could make the anti-stance effect be called "stumble", and the anti parry effect be called "twitch". Could give a single line that your legs seem to faulter when you would stance, or that they faulter in general (when given). Then a twitch in the arm could do the same to show why a parry failed, or a line about your shoulders twitching could be the warning that your parrys may fail. 

I would discourage piling more "must cure" affs in. And I say this when the current suggestion includes making anti-stance a mental aff, which nunchaku may actually like to use more too.

I'd suggest making the move 'feint' which is as far as I know the normal move in a combat to achieve what I believe is being discussed here. 

Edit: Also, not a fan of the poison suggestions made here.