Chaos Event Megathread

Ianir

Just going to set this up because there's obviously going to be some venting, some discussion, some rants, some admin hate, what have you. At this point, I've seen what you've all been saying in your clans, in envoys, what have you.

So, here's my view of admin perspective. We tried something new. You all complained that Ascension was stale, so we tried something new. We tested it - Obviously we didn't think everything through, and we screwed some things up.

In the end, we ended up having to make a decision. Either nullify the decision and redo the event, or call it. The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.

We have fixed some of the locations being accessible to players. We will be changing the hamster to be whitelisted locations (the teleport actually used anywhere the hamster could go.)

You may choose to disagree with our decisions. You may choose to... I don't really even know anymore. That's fine. Do it here. Do not attack other players. Other than that, have at.

Kagato

I personally feel that it should be nullified and redone, given that Lorina was unfortunate enough to be flung to an area that she was forced to drop the hamster in the final 3 minutes, then to rub salt in the wound, Tarken got teleported TWICE to areas that were mechanically impossible or unknown to mortals (I would have thought that the divine havens would be the FIRST place to be put on a blacklist as a no-jump area...).  Please do not interpret this as an attack against him because it is anything BUT that.  The silence from Avechna for pretty much the entire event and his disappearance without even announcing those who placed beyond the sealholder also put a bit of a dampener on the finish.

Maligorn

Nobody's mad you guys tried something new.

Nobody's mad at Tarken.

Everybody's mad that there isn't going to be a do-over (even 10 minutes like the year when no one was holding the hamster at the end) to compensate for unintended mishaps.

And I swear, if one of the strong arguments right now is ChAoS, I'm just going to be very disappointed.

Versalean

I just want to say that this is one of those situations where it might be worth taking a break before posting. Anything you really need to say will still be sayable tomorrow morning.

ETA: For the removal of doubt, this is not a response to Kagato's perfectly reasonable and measured post.

ETA: Or Maligorn's. Double-ninja'd.

Minkahmet

Ianir said:

Just going to set this up because there's obviously going to be some venting, some discussion, some rants, some admin hate, what have you. At this point, I've seen what you've all been saying in your clans, in envoys, what have you.

So, here's my view of admin perspective. We tried something new. You all complained that Ascension was stale, so we tried something new. We tested it - Obviously we didn't think everything through, and we screwed some things up.

In the end, we ended up having to make a decision. Either nullify the decision and redo the event, or call it. The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.

We have fixed some of the locations being accessible to players. We will be changing the hamster to be whitelisted locations (the teleport actually used anywhere the hamster could go.)

You may choose to disagree with our decisions. You may choose to... I don't really even know anymore. That's fine. Do it here. Do not attack other players. Other than that, have at.

I'm going to have to disagree with this, and with all due respect, mind you. Was this even tested prior to this? I'm highly doubting it was, and quite honestly, I do think this is very distasteful, as -all areas- should've been reviewed for this prior and fixed up so that there wouldn't be any reason for foul play. Also, going forward- I do believe the hamster needs to drop automatically upon leaving the prime.  This isn't some attack on Tarken, as I do congratulate him, its clearly the mechanics and the lack of checking and double-checking prior to running these. Unfortunately, there are clearly those who live to grief and cheat and they do this knowningly, and I'm highly certain the admins were watching this closely and there should've been immediate interfering to halt those issues, for a more quality form of play for everyone. 

Xenthos

What "griefing or cheating that people are doing knowingly" are you talking about?  The initial post says nothing about cheating or griefing of any kind, simply that the hamster was teleporting people to areas that it shouldn't have (which obviously the person holding it has zero control over).  I mean, it sounds like there's a mechanics issue that needs fixing (and will be fixed), but I don't know what the grief-and-cheat you're speaking of is even referring to.

Kagato

Xenthos said:

What "griefing or cheating that people are doing knowingly" are you talking about?  The initial post says nothing about cheating or griefing of any kind, simply that the hamster was teleporting people to areas that it shouldn't have (which obviously the person holding it has zero control over).  I mean, it sounds like there's a mechanics issue that needs fixing (and will be fixed), but I don't know what the grief-and-cheat you're speaking of is even referring to.

Therein lies my entire gripe.  The error has been acknowledged, but the event should be run again, given that more than once people were flung into areas that caused them to automatically drop the hamster (me being the first one when I got flung into Rikenfriez village.  Chances are I would have been killed soon after anyway )

I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.

Ianir

Minkahmet said:

Ianir said:

Just going to set this up because there's obviously going to be some venting, some discussion, some rants, some admin hate, what have you. At this point, I've seen what you've all been saying in your clans, in envoys, what have you.

So, here's my view of admin perspective. We tried something new. You all complained that Ascension was stale, so we tried something new. We tested it - Obviously we didn't think everything through, and we screwed some things up.

In the end, we ended up having to make a decision. Either nullify the decision and redo the event, or call it. The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.

We have fixed some of the locations being accessible to players. We will be changing the hamster to be whitelisted locations (the teleport actually used anywhere the hamster could go.)

You may choose to disagree with our decisions. You may choose to... I don't really even know anymore. That's fine. Do it here. Do not attack other players. Other than that, have at.

I'm going to have to disagree with this, and with all due respect, mind you. Was this even tested prior to this? I'm highly doubting it was, and quite honestly, I do think this is very distasteful, as -all areas- should've been reviewed for this prior and fixed up so that there wouldn't be any reason for foul play. Also, going forward- I do believe the hamster needs to drop automatically upon leaving the prime.  This isn't some attack on Tarken, as I do congratulate him, its clearly the mechanics and the lack of checking and double-checking prior to running these. Unfortunately, there are clearly those who live to grief and cheat and they do this knowningly, and I'm highly certain the admins were watching this closely and there should've been immediate interfering to halt those issues, for a more quality form of play for everyone. 

There are over 47000 rooms in Lusternia. Of those, 29388 are on the Prime Material Plane. We have two fully active coders, including myself. This event, outside of coding time, received almost a full day of combined code testing between both coders. If you can think of an excellent way to test all 29388 rooms however that isn't O(N) at best however, please do let me know!

The guildhall should have been made no_mortal, which has since been corrected. The same with the divine havens room. The cities never have been for the purpose of the chaos hamster, and this has never been an issue in the nine years previously - If this is now, we can look into it. As we really do intend to discuss by whitelisting the hamster locations.

We can certainly look into the chaos hamster being tossed upon leaving prime, though again, nine years previously.

As for your accusation that we were not watching, we were in fact. However, given we are only human, I would like to point out that we can only parse dozens of lines of text, make decisions, and type commands as fast as you are able to, and the question of interference also has to be considered as interfering could also be taken as partisan.

Taevy

These reasons aren't even that valid.

Veil shouldn't count for anything. Malarious used veil for all of last years ascension and we still won. Seek completely elimintates veil. Veil shouldn't even be a factor because when he was booted to the room in that place, I was able to scry him, therefor he didn't even have veil up. The others in the location only happened because an individual was able to complete a teleport on Tarken. 

The thing that killed it in the end was the fact he was in the Divine Havens room, which nobody had access to, for more than half of the final 3 minutes. He literally had the ending given to him by an RNG roll on a table that doesn't seem to have been revised very well (no offence to anyone here, I probably would have skipped over rooms if I made it myself).

All Tarken had to do to stop us was to drop a monolith. 

If they just redid another 10 minutes like they did two years ago, when Saoirse was holding it and dropped it with like 20 seconds to go, it would have been fine. Providing the hamster didn't get booted to places we couldn't acces. Like the Havens or the Solstice area.

These reasons aren't really even that good. I don't see any reason why this decision, based on the two given reason, should be valid.

Falaeron

Ianir said:

The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.

Veil: Firstly, veil does have a counter in seek and that is why we knew he was in two non-accessible rooms. Secondly, even ignoring that, if you actually make decisions as major as this based on a single skill, don't you think it's time to actually think about whether or not that skill is too impactful in such situations?

Others being with him: This could have easily been prevented by him through a myriad of different methods. We got in because we teleported in. He could have moved out in that time. Better yet, he could have dropped a monolith and there would have been no way mechanically for any other player to get to him.

These decisions are yours to make, but at least give better reasons for them, and if you don't have any, just own up to it.

Jaspet

Kagato said:

I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.

Possibly? Tarken grabbed the hamster from Taeyvn with just about 90 seconds remaining, who's to say what would have happened if he'd been able to run. He held it for quite a while during the middle with everyone chasing.

Karlach

Every year various bugs have an impact on the outcome at some point, things causing forced drops that should not (resisted gusts, or gusts in a non existent direction being last year's specialty)

The solution has never been to redo, the exception being when no one had the hamster and thus it went into overtime. Yes it absolutely sucks to lose to unforseen circumstances, use that to improve next year.

I'm glad that the Ascension games are being tested for new ideas and mechanics, they were stale and predictable. Ultimately what happened could have happened to anyone, the dice just rolled in one person's favour.

And accusing anyone of exploitation and cheating, on a completely uncontrollable random factor, is truly pathetic. Put your toys back in the pram.

Taevy

Jaspet said:

Kagato said:

I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.

Possibly? Tarken grabbed the hamster from Taeyvn with just about 90 seconds remaining, who's to say what would have happened if he'd been able to run. He held it for quite a while during the middle with everyone chasing.

I lost it with four minutes remaining.

Minkahmet

I said the admins weren't watching?  Might want to read that line again, I said exactly "I am sure the admins were watching" that does not equate to the admins -not- watching.  Also, I still believe that there were ample time prior to this, as in months ago. I do understand the lacking of coders as that's always been an issue with Lusternia,  and not faulting it there-but I'm of the belief it could've been done so. So-don't take my disagreement as an attack if that's how its coming off, but its not

Kagato

Jaspet said:

Kagato said:

I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.

Possibly? Tarken grabbed the hamster from Taeyvn with just about 90 seconds remaining, who's to say what would have happened if he'd been able to run. He held it for quite a while during the middle with everyone chasing.

Tarken held it for the entirety of the final 3 minutes after Lorina dropped it.  First place he teleported to was Divine Havens, second place was that room, which as mentioned above, the only reason anyone was there with him was because they had managed to complete a teleport just before the timer ran out.

Ianir

Minkahmet said:

I said the admins weren't watching?  Might want to read that line again, I said exactly "I am sure the admins were watching" that does not equate to the admins -not- watching.  Also, I still believe that there were ample time prior to this, as in months ago. I do understand the lacking of coders as that's always been an issue with Lusternia,  and not faulting it there-but I'm of the belief it could've been done so. So-don't take my disagreement as an attack if that's how its coming off, but its not

Sorry, yeah, after rereading just now, I misread. Long week.

I didn't take it as an attack really, just explaining. Sorry if I'm coming off as blunt.

Estarra

Yes, I understand the Fates intervened in unexpected ways that may seem unreasonable. But ... do you guys realize how amazing this Trial of Chaos was? The Purple Hamster was behaving ... quite unusually! Something is off on this Ascension! How? Why? What does it mean for future trials for this cycle? Doesn't this make you shake in your high heels as much as myself? The Chaos Challenge may or may not ever behave like this again, and if it does, the Anomalies of creation will certainly address mechanics. While there was an internal debate on whether to extend the challenge, the decision was made not to. Whether you believe it was the right decision or not, I stand by it and hope you will look forward with me to next week's perhaps equally unusual trial. See you then!

Minkahmet

Thank you

Saz

Karlach said:

The solution has never been to redo

That's not true, admins said that they had to decide between a redo and a pass. And the reasons that swayed their judgement are open to more controversy than the entire event itself. So if everyone gave up because Tarken was at a room he shouldn't be at and not teleported, was this going to be a redo?

Will Veil be banned in next year's event? Will prismatic barriers?

I don't care at all as to who wins this, just show me a glimpse of a "just" decision that doesn't absolutely gut everyone in the game you are running about participating in everything else that's left.

Kaimanahi

From my perspective, the introduced mechanic was inconsistent with the established ruleset of the event, and thus unfairly affected the outcome. 

1) Players forcibly lost the hamster when they were teleported into org-affiliated areas. 

2) Players were teleported into inaccessible areas and were thus afforded protection for the duration therein. This just so happened to occur at the most critical time of the event, but one can also see how points were accrued under this premise that also may have skewed the final placements. 

Effectively, players lost opportunities to influence the outcome of the event, based solely on mechanics beyond their control. So is it fair to award a winner of an event that is, itself, unfair? I understand that it may have been a difficult decision, but from a player-perspective, it's hard to feel like time and effort were invested only to culminate in a result that was, in some part, out of our hands.

Kaimanahi

I'll also note that the winner was actually standing in org-affiliated territory when he won. 

Karlach

Whether they decided whether to or not, my point stands.

A redo has never been the answer.

Maligorn

I will say, delayed teleports was another surprise. In a challenge that has such a furiously fast tempo, I feel like this shouldn't have been sprung on us. If anything, teleports should've been made a bit faster, so people that are slower to chase or -whatever- can keep up. Participation by people that wanted to be in a supportive capacity (and in general) was really hindered.

Versalean

@Ianir - why's it called a Megathread?

Kagato

Versalean said:

@Ianir - why's it called a Megathread?

Because posts about the topic are not permitted in other threads.  I ninja'd Ianir earlier with a post in the tweets thread, he deleting it and saying to keep all chaos-related posts in here.

Anita

I enjoyed the event, I always love hamster events!

Can it be requested that there be MORE hamsters though next time?

Ianir

Anita said:

I enjoyed the event, I always love hamster events!

Can it be requested that there be MORE hamsters though next time?

20000 hamsters coming up

Malayn

I agree with the admin decision on this. 

Let's consider the other options:

1) Redo the last few minutes.
Most people held the hamster for over a minute, in some cases a few. Based ENTIRELY on the RNG, you may get places like inner sea or you may get dead ends like Shallamurine. There is no telling if you'd get really luck or not because of this. If Tarken had been thrown to SoD or Inner Sea, he would still have won. So from his perspective, he had good chances to win still when time was almost over. Is it unfair he got to safe zones? Yes, but Taevyn got to Night Market, which may or may not have been open and has no fast ways to get to. Should we take second place for him having gotten those points too?   Doing a sudden death stands to give an advantage to the first grabber, which EVERYONE would now know about. Usually, people lose track of when it gets dropped and people get it as a result of the chaos.  This is not what would happen in a redo, and it would not end up the same way. 

2) Leave the results.
This makes people unhappy because of the end.  RNG means you have no idea where Tark could have otherwise ended up.  The most rightful complaint here is having lost the hamster when thrown into a bad place. That is chaos, not good chaos, but chaos. I feel sorry for her the same way I felt sorry for myself when I lost the hamster when I hadn't moved (failed attempt to move in random direction).  There is no reason to believe the results would be significantly different if he had been thrown elsewhere.

As for "was this tested". Yes, yes it was. We have been told this. "Then how did............".  I want to show you the peppermint hat. I want to give you 1 room in a temple in.. Morgfyre's realm. There is nowhere near as many rooms, but it will still likely take you FOREVER.  Even when you "randomly" move, you can end up in the same area. Ianir said there is nearly 30K rooms, so even if they tested it once a minute for 10 hours they would only see 600 rooms... and they have a chance to go to the same room, much less same area. Work was done, efforts made, and event was neat.  Something went wrong, but that is part of the thing.

I understand people are not happy. They wanted their person to win, or they themselves to win. So did I!  This was a mistake as a result of not having happened in testing and not being on their mental list. Going to quest areas that can be locked (Solstice Court, Night Market), areas that dont exist, rooms that you shouldnt be in, etc are bad... but after all the work being put in, I do not expect that things might not be missed by people. I did not even know Night Market counted as prime until today, same for Solstice Court.

So I understand the displeasure, but let's take a breath. 

Tremula

I know that for a while people have felt a little underwhelmed with Ascension, at least the past two years or so. I really hope that the original responses to this don't drive the Admin to feel like they can't/shouldn't experiment or change things around, I really did like the concept and hope that there are more surprises waiting for us in the other trials as well.

Vivet

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

C'est la vie, mon ami.

Shaddus

I for one am utterly shocked that something was introduced into Lusternia that wasn't completely tested. Shocked. 


That being said, it sounds like the admin have made a decision based on what they think is right, and I see no reason to complain about it. Rngsus smiles on us all differently, and this time, she smiled on Tarken. Congratulations to him, end of story.