Quest to grant immunity to Dionamus malus

Yehn

Similar to the existing quests around the Necromentate and perhaps sharing the same NPCs... I would like to suggest a new quest along the same lines, but with a specific effect.

- Can be completed once per game month.
- Once complete, anyone that TOUCHes it (or some other interaction) gets an immunity to the Dionamus curse.
- Immunity lasts until the end of the game month.

Maybe even have it last a bit longer if the quest isn't particularly easy...

Moi

What about Glomdoring?

Yehn

Moi said:

What about Glomdoring?

Is Glomdoring affected negatively..?

I don't know what would be appropriate for Glom but if so, sure, add something similar...

Xenthos

Anyone who uses Dark Spirits is also affected, yes.

Arix

Glom is Tainted, so yes. *cackleflee*

Mrak

People may disagree with me on this, but I don't really think the malus is the problem. It's -1/13, which amounts to between 1 and 3 percent less of health regenerated every tick. I mean it's something, but it's not huge.

This is a roleplaying game, and supremacy of the taint and undeath is core to Magnagora's RP. When the spire is up, every sunrise and sunset is a giant purple middle finger pointed at Mag. Imagine if there were a quest that had absolutely no mechanical effect at all, except to periodically make worldwide ambient crude jokes about Hallifaxian leadership - how long would this quest stay up? How would people in Hallifax feel about this quest?

This is all compounded by the facts that 1) even if you know exactly what to do, the counter quest probably takes about an hour of real effort time (and actually requires being around for at least ~1.5 hours to allow for respawns), 2) it's not all that hard to temporarily prevent it from being taken down, which you know well 3) that the bashing necessary will probably kill anyone who is less than a demigod, and even occasionally pressures me with my pile of artifacts, and 4) requires a quest to even get there, which is actually broken right now anyway, or is locked behind artifacts/quest curios that few people have. 

My impression is that a bunch of Mags, especially older players, are in general annoyed with all of this. However, the lack of balance in the situation, the frustration involved in the quest, and the difficulty in even getting there makes it so that they don't bother. Thus, it ends up being me who has to go damage it every time you raise it, which is apparently a daily occurrence now.

Yehn

that the bashing necessary will probably kill anyone who is less than a demigod, and even occasionally pressures me with my pile of artifacts

It is pretty lethal even to an unartied demi (learned this the hard way, as did Iytha more recently). As you say, even with arties there are dangerous situations.

requires a quest to even get there, which is actually broken right now anyway

I've been pointing this out since the Observatory was destroyed but no one seemed to really care. But for anyone that's at least Demi... which is pragmatically a requirement of the area anyway... once you've been there once, you can anchor to get back.

That said, before I hit demi and decided to make a project of it, the spire was virtually never up. I think the quest's difficulties means most people don't bother from any org (except you and me, of course).

When the spire is up, every sunrise and sunset is a giant purple middle finger pointed at Mag. 

If I am honest, I don't understand this... I thought the anger was more pointed at the malus... (But maybe this explains why no one from Glom seems to care much?)

Why exactly is a purple sunrise and sunset such an insult..?

Xenthos

And people like me just don't use Dark Spirits so we don't have to worry about it.

The part that really gets me is that putting it up is immediate and provides a Vernal curio piece (incentivizes spamming it), whereas taking it down has a delay... so by the time the effect actually fades it's already that much closer to being able to be put back up again.  I long ago came to the conclusion that it's better to just leave it up, so that the people who want to spam it for curios can't.  Taking it down actually benefits them because they can do it again and they frustrate you / waste your time (knowing you get nothing, unlike them).

That's a pretty big case of reward imbalance right there, imo.

Yehn

Xenthos said:

The part that really gets me is that putting it up is immediate and provides a Vernal curio piece (incentivizes spamming it), whereas taking it down has a delay... so by the time the effect actually fades it's already that much closer to being able to be put back up again. 

This is not quite true... Even if you're there right as the acid finally does its work, you still have to wait a full reset cycle for the necessary items to spawn and only then can you start on it. (Even if you try to do something like prime the fissures early, they'll have reset by the time the items you need have spawned).

But anyways... So adding a reward to the counterquest would make it feel fairer?

Cazanto

I will say that it has been up for more of my time in this game than it has not.

It also has never stopped me from doing anything I wanted to do.  It doesn't stop me from going anywhere I could without it up.  It doesn't suddenly make it too difficult for me to hunt somewhere that I otherwise could have.  The impact of in game weather has more relevance to me than the mechanical impact of the spire.

On the other hand, when it was up, my question and conversation, in abridged format, went something like this:
"I see this spire thing is cursing me.  What is it?"
"Its that purply crap you see on the horizon. "
"How do I stop it?"
"You have to do the counter quest at mount Dio."
"Where is that?"
"You can't get there without special artifacts.  Also, check out this help scroll on it!"
*reads scroll* "Hm."
"Indeed."

Mrak hit the general feeling on it.  Imagine, if, say, the "taint/cleanse the sea" thing had only been on the Mag side, and a permanent quest.  Say it did nothing other than at sunrise and sunset, emote an awful smell of death and tainted decay pouring from the inner sea.  Now, imagine the counter quest is as Mrak lists above, complete with being rather difficult to access.

It wouldn't do anything to an individual's ability to do anything.  It would just be sort of, on an OOC level, an "ok but why though?" sort of experience.  That's there, more or less every day.

I mean, I'm so used to it now, I generally don't even think about it.  All the same?  It would be nice to be able to have some sort of response to it.

Yehn

So it would be better to have, basically, an undead version of the spire that could be raised?

Deichtine

Yea sounds like the type of quest that maybe shouldn't have a curio reward at all.

Cazanto

Yehn said:

So it would be better to have, basically, an undead version of the spire that could be raised?

Honestly, I don't even care if that existed or not.  I'm sure we could dredge up something about Urlach's response, but I don't need to see a mirror image of any sort.  I don't see the point, the example above was just for the sake of context.  Just a reasonable way to respond to the thing on principle would be fun.

I mean, that wasn't hyperbole when I said it has been up more than it hasn't since I started playing.  I basically ignore it because it has always been there for me, like grave diggers, or bumping into cows.  It doesn't personally bother me much at all, because its been just part of my game experience.  I'm just speaking from a standpoint of general principle, some way to respond that's better than what exists would be great.  My biggest disappointment regarding the spire was finding out what a pain it was to take down, and that I couldn't even get there to try.

Yehn

The repair side is not exactly easy either, so that much sounds 'balanced' even if the rewards could use adjustment...

and that I couldn't even get there to try.

This is another problem for both sides.

So it sounds like our suggestions should be, then, 1. something to replace the lucidian teleporter (ideally that gives a path to icewynd too, a la the old teleporter), and 2. balancing of the rewards... Does that sound right?

Mrak

To be clear, adding a curio on the damage side does not balance rewards. Fundamentally, the light side is always going to be a successful attack on the undead, while the dark side is just returning to status quo. Even a step further, putting an undead version of the spire de facto wouldn't balance rewards, because we couldn't really do it if we don't want to tick off our other 1.5 allies who aren't undead. 

The truly "balanced" version would be to make the quest targettable, so that you can apply the malus to whatever org you want. This is also a horrible idea, as it just engenders constant grief, and the worst type of "conflict." If you want evidence, just look at the grief that comes from the Cay and Sea Battle, which I've been trying to get changed for months. 

Sylandra

Related: I miss the lucidian teleporter. And the Observatory as a whole.

Yehn

To be clear, adding a curio on the damage side does not balance rewards.

But it would mean you get something to show for the time involved...

To the rest of your post... That doesn't really give a path forward...

Making the quest accessible, I think, makes it so more people can participate with a lower barrier to entry... and rewards, well, reward people for the effort involved so it won't seem like a waste of time...

(Or, I guess, we could go 'leave it as is' because hardly anyone from any part of the basin cares one way or another...)

Cazanto

I'd be mostly happy just to be able to get to the place, but I can only speak for myself.  Mrak makes a great point above as well.

More humorously:
My internal image of the spire: (slightly uncouth image of a rude gesture, so hyperlink only)
http://alternative-prague.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/David-Černý-Middle-Finger.jpg 

Yehn

Cazanto said:

I'd be mostly happy just to be able to get to the place, but I can only speak for myself.  Mrak makes a great point above as well.

More humorously:
My internal image of the spire: (slightly uncouth image of a rude gesture, so hyperlink only)
http://alternative-prague.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/David-Černý-Middle-Finger.jpg 

While it's not a long term solution, in the short term... if you can find a reason to poke at me IC I can get you there.

Xenthos

Mrak said:

To be clear, adding a curio on the damage side does not balance rewards. Fundamentally, the light side is always going to be a successful attack on the undead, while the dark side is just returning to status quo. Even a step further, putting an undead version of the spire de facto wouldn't balance rewards, because we couldn't really do it if we don't want to tick off our other 1.5 allies who aren't undead. 

The truly "balanced" version would be to make the quest targettable, so that you can apply the malus to whatever org you want. This is also a horrible idea, as it just engenders constant grief, and the worst type of "conflict." If you want evidence, just look at the grief that comes from the Cay and Sea Battle, which I've been trying to get changed for months. 

There are lots of things that are "damage vs. status quo" (see: Tar Pits, Gromagh, etc).  What's rare is that very few of them target Magnagoran interests.  What's also rare is that there is not usually a hefty reward for the damage aspect that incentivizes doing it every time it can be done.

Can you imagine what Hifarae would be like if it gave a Soulless curio piece?  Or Faethorn if the Tar Pits gave a Soulless piece?

Edit: Zenos would be an example of a damage vs. static quo that does give curio pieces, but as has already been noted elsewhere undoing Zenos is a fraction of the effort of releasing him which helps balance it considerably.

Yehn

Xenthos said:

Mrak said:

To be clear, adding a curio on the damage side does not balance rewards. Fundamentally, the light side is always going to be a successful attack on the undead, while the dark side is just returning to status quo. Even a step further, putting an undead version of the spire de facto wouldn't balance rewards, because we couldn't really do it if we don't want to tick off our other 1.5 allies who aren't undead. 

The truly "balanced" version would be to make the quest targettable, so that you can apply the malus to whatever org you want. This is also a horrible idea, as it just engenders constant grief, and the worst type of "conflict." If you want evidence, just look at the grief that comes from the Cay and Sea Battle, which I've been trying to get changed for months. 

There are lots of things that are "damage vs. status quo" (see: Tar Pits, Gromagh, etc).  What's rare is that very few of them target Magnagoran interests.  What's also rare is that there is not usually a hefty reward for the damage aspect that incentivizes doing it every time it can be done.

Can you imagine what Hifarae would be like if it gave a Soulless curio piece?  Or Faethorn if the Tar Pits gave a Soulless piece?

Edit: Zenos would be an example of a damage vs. static quo that does give curio pieces, but as has already been noted elsewhere undoing Zenos is a fraction of the effort of releasing him which helps balance it considerably.

One thing I also want to say is Dio isn't strictly about "damage vs status quo". It's a buff for everyone else, including a lot of Magnagora's allies.

(i.e. If I was just after curio rewards, I wouldn't try to stop the spire from being damaged...)

Mrak

Yehn said:

That doesn't really give a path forward...

You're right. I don't know of a path forward. I can't come up with a vision for the Spire that makes it significantly better. People have complained about the Spire for years but they've always been turned down. Honestly, I'd delete it if I could, but I don't expect that to happen. Irritating mechanics like this don't change until they become hated by everyone (see: fires and vines).

I do have one solution, and it seems to be one that has worked in a bunch of other spheres. We could choose not to abuse these sorts of mechanics. We don't steal. It's highly frowned upon to raise the Soulforge without immediately dropping it. We don't spam Gromagh, or the Dark Armours. (I admit: several Mags like repeatedly doing Globglob, which I wish didn't happen). Apparently Gaudi and Hallifax effectively have an agreement to not grief each others' epic quests. All that's required is to not spend a bunch of your time doing an irritating quest.

Edit: I don't even mind people doing it every so often, especially if they want the line, want the history behind it, or just like exploring. It's repeatedly doing it a couple of hours after someone takes it down which seems unnecessary.

Xenthos

I will say that now that I have an artifact into TBC it's a lot easier to drop Globglob, long's Ildil's alive I can have him down in ~5 mins.  The most frustrating part of that quest was when someone murdered the gravediggers (so you could not do the quest to even get in) or when someone camps Ildil to keep him from being killed.  Recently at least I haven't had issues with the Ildil-camping aspect.

Yes, the quest is annoying but I'm personally finding it markedly less so, just given that it takes so little time to counter (though I can see this feeling very different for others who are not able to do so as readily as I).

Yehn

Well, this goes back to my original suggestion...

A quest that provides immunity. Everyone else gets the buffs, Mag and some Gloms don't get the malus. But... if you're going to play the RP card and say it's not the mechanics, it's the symbolism... don't ask me to not do the quest OOCly, please. (From my perspective, taking it down moments after it's been put up is equally unnecessary...) 

Yehn

Another possible suggestion based on your earlier thought of making it org targetable...

Only do that for the positive effects, and simply remove the maluses...

There's a lot more to the spire than "This only annoys Magnagora, delete it please"

Maligorn

Removing the malus to undead/dark spirits would also take the bite out of the RP-incentive to take it down immediately, too. But I'm sure people would still be mad a the purple sunrise/sunset just because it's associated with Dionamus, the ever-antagonizer of Urlach. (In the end, they still fusion-ha'd, and I'm sure they got over themselves eventually after being Avechna for so long).

Yehn

Maligorn said:

But I'm sure people would still be mad a the purple sunrise/sunset just because it's associated with Dionamus, the ever-antagonizer of Urlach. (In the end, they still fusion-ha'd, and I'm sure they got over themselves eventually after being Avechna for so long).

Would be neat if we could have these kinds of discussion in game, instead of just 'quests mountdio_repair rankings' and 'enemy <new entry>'.

But on the mechanics side things there's a number of possible solutions (rewards for time spent, gameplay that provides immunity-- and a new quest gives a chance for more lore exposition....). And while deleting the malus might not be palatable to the devs, it *is* a solution to the mechanics and a lot better, IMO, than just 'delete the spire'....

Mrak

Yehn said:

Another possible suggestion based on your earlier thought of making it org targetable...

Only do that for the positive effects, and simply remove the maluses...

There's a lot more to the spire than "This only annoys Magnagora, delete it please"

Sure, make the benefits single org-targetable, and preferably have ignore them undeath status. Reopen the quest every 30 hours. This would make it much less bad. At that point, though, it's basically a watered-down domoth, in which the "conflict" is based around stealing items and killing quest mobs rather than combat.

I think we are just going to disagree on the RP necessity of our respective sides. Mrak sees this as basically an attack on Magnagora. It essentially demands immediate action. It might be a step below an attack on Nil, but it's certainly well above most other things. It's surprising to me that the Spire of Dionamus in particular is so core to Yehn's ideology. Could she not infuse the Throne with light? If she's out to heal people, can she go help people in the asylum? If she's just looking to empower the north, I suspect there's plenty of options. 

Yehn

Mrak said:

Yehn said:

Another possible suggestion based on your earlier thought of making it org targetable...

Only do that for the positive effects, and simply remove the maluses...

There's a lot more to the spire than "This only annoys Magnagora, delete it please"

Sure, make the benefits single org-targetable, and preferably have ignore them undeath status. Reopen the quest every 30 hours. This would make it much less bad. At that point, though, it's basically a watered-down domoth, in which the "conflict" is based around stealing items and killing quest mobs rather than combat.

Is that really such a bad thing?

Realistically, I'm never going to be a high end pvper, and I think, nor are many others. I wouldn't mind more stuff like this... but I also wouldn't mind less focus on directly antagonizing other orgs (which tends to lead to the quests being *effectively* blocked because people agree to not be assholes to each other, treaties, etc...)

"Do the quest, get a buff for your allies" is a concept I'm OK with personally... and maybe things could be changed to be more around setbacks instead of "don't get this one quest item/mob and you're completely blocked until reset"...

Mrak said:

Yehn said:

Another possible suggestion based on your earlier thought of making it org targetable...

Only do that for the positive effects, and simply remove the maluses...

There's a lot more to the spire than "This only annoys Magnagora, delete it please"

I think we are just going to disagree on the RP necessity of our respective sides. Mrak sees this as basically an attack on Magnagora. It essentially demands immediate action. It might be a step below an attack on Nil, but it's certainly well above most other things. It's surprising to me that the Spire of Dionamus in particular is so core to Yehn's ideology. Could she not infuse the Throne with light? If she's out to heal people, can she go help people in the asylum? If she's just looking to empower the north, I suspect there's plenty of options. 

And on the RP side that's fair enough, but IMO that should stay in game... To the rest... well, this too would be a great topic to explore in game... 

Mrak

Yehn said:

 Is that really such a bad thing?

Not sure what precisely you're referring to. I am fine with blessings and such. My experience with the Cay and Sea Battle indicates that conflict around quest mobs and items really can be a bad thing. I don't know if you'll find anyone on either side of that conflict who thinks it's a ton of fun. 

Yehn

Mrak said:

Yehn said:

 Is that really such a bad thing?

Not sure what precisely you're referring to. I am fine with blessings and such. My experience with the Cay and Sea Battle indicates that conflict around quest mobs and items really can be a bad thing. I don't know if you'll find anyone on either side of that conflict who thinks it's a ton of fun. 

Dionamus becoming essentially a watered down domoth. (Though really I'm OK with most options that have come up...)