IDEA - Choosing a Side: Cities, Combat and RP. Limitations and Possible Solutions.

Faeie

Okay, so. RP wise. My character has been questioning a lot of things and that's great. Long story short all cities have their flaws and they're clearly designed to not be better than the others (at least in theory this makes sense, as there shouldn't be a city that is "right" while the others are "wrong"). And This works excellent for most people I'm not complaining about the foundational structure of this.

[ Wow this got long, sorry. But hopefully you find these thoughts insightful. ]

However in Faeie's development it did lead to a couple of questions that cannot be assessed IC as much as OOC.

For one we have the lack of support for rogue characters, which is honestly disheartening. Because I'm trying to commit to my character and indeed learn about all the cities and value all of the lore that is put forth and I get punished for it, because if I don't pick one side I have to go rogue, and that is an indirect punishment. Rogues don't get guilds, let alone a CLASS. They can't even learn a class if they didn't already have one and even if they quit a guild as tri-trans [whatever] it's more than likely that most of their useful abilities require power, or indeed, requires a big RP component that can be taken away (not serving Supernals or Demon Lords can make them take their respective powers away from you). Even if you join a city like Gaudi for the power source, most good abilities require power from a SPECIFIC Nexus.

On the other hand the game as a whole has combat. Combat is a big part of it in fact and hell, some people play it MOSTLY for the combat. So this creates a bit of an issue. First of all a rogue has nothing- or at least way, way less to fight for than someone who is in a city. So already half the gameplay is locked away for you. Let's say this might not be such a big issue since Faeie is mostly RP anyway and could do something weird like... Participate in big events and the such healing whoever is losing, for instance. That sounds awful but whatever someone else could RP a mercenary or something. Sure I guess whatever.

Most importantly though it's difficult to RP someone who wants peace, when war is such a key aspect of the game. It's like jumping on a shooter game and asking "Why can't we just get along?" it's ridiculous. The game is built for war there's no escaping it. So from a player's perspective I find the RP and combat components to be in conflict with each other. If you built the cities so that none of them is right or wrong, then it stops being about which one I'd choose to ally with, that decision is easy because I like most of the cities, but the question becomes: Who do you want as enemies. Because you'll always be locked away from other cities by virtue of joining another.

So if we CAN'T get along, because it's part of the basic premise for people to fight, then I as a player feel more compelled to go rogue but it feels extremely punishing and all because I tried to put more thought into it.

Possible solutions? A neutral city would be pretty amazing honestly. I mean, my first reflex is that too many people might move there at first but Achaea has Cyrene and there's still plenty of people in the Good and Evil cities (and all the rest). Larger playerbase I know but still. This is the first big issue I find with Lusternia, everything else is super minor and hasn't gotten in the way of me enjoying this world and its people greatly. I know this is a huge idea I can't exactly just ask for, but I'm throwing it out there.

Imagine: A city focused on trade, scholars and artists, a neutral ground between all cities regardless of current affiliations and with combat academies that train mercenaries. It can also be home to criminals, gangs and even pirates. SPACE AETHER PIRATES. Overall be weaker in lore because it doesn't need one, that's what the other cities are for. The Alexandria of Lusternia.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this.

Xenthos

Would they be banned from participating in village revolts, domoths, and any other conflict event?  Because if not, I can't imagine them staying neutral-- that's why alliances formed, groups of players trying to increase their odds of victory for game resources.

Lusternia is definitely not Good vs. Evil, our alliances have shifted a great deal over the years.  Glomdoring and Celest were allied for a long time, for example.  Because we're not Good vs. Evil there really isn't a "neutral" per se, unless you mechanically block them from participating in conflicts.

Faeie

There are opposites left and right though. Order and Chaos. Light and Dark. Natural and Tainted.

It very much is a game of dualities, it's not Good vs. Evil because there's no one "Correct" or "Good" moral choice, but there is certainly a neutral point between all the ones I named.

And as I said when it comes to combat it could be a for-hire thing, perhaps the same for revolts and the such.

Xenthos

Faeie said:

There are opposites left and right though. Order and Chaos. Light and Dark. Natural and Tainted.

It very much is a game of dualities, it's not Good vs. Evil because there's no one "Correct" or "Good" moral choice, but there is certainly a neutral point between all the ones I named.

And as I said when it comes to combat it could be a for-hire thing, perhaps the same for revolts and the such.

And yet even these "opposites" have been aligned; Glomdoring and Serenwilde have also been together vs. the world.

PS: Only one organization actually considers itself Tainted (Magnagora).  Serenwilde does not consider itself "Light".  Even your quick-and-easy-labels are not accurate.

Lusternia is not meant to be cut-and-dry like that.  Estarra likes things with shades of gray.  Very heavy shades of gray.

Faeie

I understand alliances are made more for chances at winning events, and that brings up a point I didn't mention in my first post: How events are made to reinforce these conflicts further. Because if one wins, the rest lose, then you're right that it'd be tricky to say the least to have a neutral city. Again, if not fixed it still brings up the issues I mentioned above where everything just clashes awkwardly if you put thought into it.

Maligorn

Every organisation is varying shades of grey, which is what makes Lusternia, well, Lusternia (not Achaea). Also, Faeie, Hallifax tried to be close to what you described. It's terribly boring, unfun, and non-participatory. Furthermore, even if we furnished rogues with all of the amenities of a citydweller, they'd still be shunned by just about every org except maybe Gaudiguch (maybe Magnagora, but clearly 2nd class)...at which point you should just join Gaudiguch.

Serenwilde might seem like an agreeable, beautiful and respectful organisation, but they were so vindictive to the point that they opted to let Celest get assaulted by Ladantine with no regard for the innocents that were killed. New Celest has a mile-long history with the preceding Old Celestian Empire for being jerks. Hallifax promotes lofty ideals like Beauty and Harmony but also punishes citizens with indentured servitude over generations. Gaudiguch has that "illusion of freedom" thing going on. So on and so forth.

Faeie

It's not fun because there's no support for it and Hallifax is not meant to be that anyway. Not when they're the city of Order. I never said Serenwilde was Light. Celest is Light. And I'm not saying they're absolutes because they can't be.

-Sigh- I know they're shades of grey, I acknowledged this. If they weren't, I'd be fine with staying in New Celest as the "Good" city and there'd be no issue to speak of. I APPRECIATE this. But it's not my point at all. New Celest did and does awful shit still, and so does Magnagora. Same with Hallifax and Gaudiguch. I know this is on purpose I already stated there shouldn't be one "right" city and that makes all of them feel the more human.

I don't need to be lectured on how the cities aren't perfect, please read my words more carefully. I know this. This is what Faeie has been learning since they went through the portal.

My point is that they still represent opposites. And I know they've been allied. But you can't have them all be allies because the game would stop existing, so enemies need to still be a thing. My point is I don't want to have enemies and there's no rogue support at all, 90% of the game is deleted if I go rogue, and there's no place other than the Aetherplex that exists as a "neutral" ground.

Falaeron

Just how the game is designed to be. Sorry.

Faeie

Falaeron said:

Just how the game is designed to be. Sorry.

I knew I'd get this comment eventually. Could say this about every aspect of anything that is broken. Doesn't mean we can't try to do something about it.

Shuyin

Just join an org and don't get enemied. Most orgs will welcome you as long as you're not enemied/talk to their leaders first.

Faeie

Xenthos said:

Lusternia is not meant to be cut-and-dry like that.  Estarra likes things with shades of gray.  Very heavy shades of gray.

So the problem is you still offer extremes though. Sure, Hallifax is not Absolute Order, that's godly, impossible. Same with Gaudi, they still have laws (at least the one law). Celest is supposed to be Light and Goodness but they still encourage genocide and the Supernals don't always practice what they preach.

But just because they're not perfectly alligned with black or white it doesn't mean they're neutral, they're still very much on one side of things. Gaudi and Hallifax could be allies, but I still wouldn't pick any of them, they still preach different things and both me and my character find value in both. What do you do when you find value in all people have to say, and not the very limited group you happen to agree with at this moment?

Maligorn

Faeie said:

It's not fun because there's no support for it and Hallifax is not meant to be that anyway. Not when they're the city of Order. I never said Serenwilde was Light. Celest is Light. And I'm not saying they're absolutes because they can't be.

-Sigh- I know they're shades of grey, I acknowledged this. If they weren't, I'd be fine with staying in New Celest as the "Good" city and there'd be no issue to speak of. I APPRECIATE this. But it's not my point at all. New Celest did and does awful shit still, and so does Magnagora. Same with Hallifax and Gaudiguch. I know this is on purpose I already stated there shouldn't be one "right" city and that makes all of them feel the more human.

I don't need to be lectured on how the cities aren't perfect, please read my words more carefully. I know this. This is what Faeie has been learning since they went through the portal.

My point is that they still represent opposites. And I know they've been allied. But you can't have them all be allies because the game would stop existing, so enemies need to still be a thing. My point is I don't want to have enemies and there's no rogue support at all, 90% of the game is deleted if I go rogue, and there's no place other than the Aetherplex that exists as a "neutral" ground.

Again, I don't know where you became the lore expert, but you can't sit here and tell me Hallifax is the City of Order and thus needs to behave in x way (according to you) and then proceed to "acknowledge" that there's shades of grey. (edit: The reason I provided that explanation of events that happened in the first place wasn't to insult your comprehension, but rather because you started throwing out lame labels like Good and Evil and Order.)

Once again, I'll recommend Gaudiguch as the place that you can most comfortably play a "rogue".

Faeie

Shuyin said:

Just join an org and don't get enemied. Most orgs will welcome you as long as you're not enemied/talk to their leaders first.

It's not that easy though, because you're still considered enemies and a lot of them are mutually exclusive. I can't respect the Demon Lords when the Supernals ask me to kill them. Joining any org involves some degree of conviction I can't share because all of them are so far down one end of the spectrum, my best bet would be to be a phoney (like a lot of combatants that don't truly care about RP) and join whatever is convenient, which I don't want to do. The game asks me to push away complex RP like that.

Maligorn

Faeie said:

 The game asks me to push away complex RP like that.

No, it does not.

Shedrin

I'm having trouble understanding the issues here. Granted, I'm one of those players that plays primarily for pvp.

But is your issue that you can't RP with people from all orgs, then I think that's a flawed premise. There's plenty of people that do so regularly.

Faeie

Maligorn said:

Again, I don't know where you became the lore expert, but you can't sit here and tell me Hallifax is the City of Order and thus needs to behave in x way (according to you) and then proceed to "acknowledge" that there's shades of grey. (edit: The reason I provided that explanation of events that happened in the first place wasn't to insult your comprehension, but rather because you started throwing out lame labels like Good and Evil and Order.)

Once again, I'll recommend Gaudiguch as the place that you can most comfortably play a "rogue".

I'm not a lore expert, I'm saying the cities still come with a moral/philosophical conviction. They might be shades of grey but you still wouldn't join Hallifax if your beliefs/personality doesn't fit it. If things were as grey as you are trying to convince me they are the cities would have no identity and you would just join whatever because they'd be the same.

Maligorn

The only place that's hostile to outsiders whether enemied or not is Glomdoring, and that's because xenophobia is baked in to their lore (even moreso than Serenwilde, imo).

That being said, there's plenty of diplomatic Glomdorians that wish to spread the glory of the Wyrd through words and demonstrations rather than raw military might.

Faeie

Maligorn said:

Faeie said:

 The game asks me to push away complex RP like that.

No, it does not.

It sure feels like it because there's no option that doesn't require me to embody absolute mentalities that represent these cities. There's no way Faeie can continue to be a Celestine if Supernals decide they're too friendly to the tainted and revoke their powers. And again, I have to absolutely give up combat because I can't support one side over the other, that's half the game out the window because I decided to consider moral choices instead of doing whatever New Celest wants me to do.

Faeie

Maligorn said:

The only place that's hostile to outsiders whether enemied or not is Glomdoring, and that's because xenophobia is baked in to their lore (even moreso than Serenwilde, imo).

That being said, there's plenty of diplomatic Glomdorians that wish to spread the glory of the Wyrd through words and demonstrations rather than raw military might.

You're still giving me an example of a group of people that support a very specific cause that goes against other causes. There's not even a semblance of balance to being a part of such organization, you always cut away different things in favour of your city's thing.

Falaeron

Okay let's just say your idea is the best thing ever and it fit in the design of the game (note: it doesn't - people are very clearly meant to pick a side and develop their characters' RP accordingly). Now it's time to implement it. We're currently trying to cut down the number of guilds we have because most of them are underpopulated. I think one of the admins said at one point that deleting one or two orgs was actually discussed and they chose to go for the guilds as the less disruptive option. How do you propose we add an entirely new organisation without nuking at least one of the others?

Faeie

If Estarra is the only one that apparently realizes and enjoys everything being shades of grey then why can't I join Estarra's Order or something? How else am I supposed to pick a side when they're all equally as viable and equally unsuited for me? How is it that when I understand things as Estarra does I don't have an organization that supports these views?

Lord @Weiwae 's Order is the closest thing and he still is on New Celest, which means I have to deal with genocidal zealots and hypocritical Supernals.

Shedrin

Faeie said:

If Estarra is the only one that apparently realizes and enjoys everything being shades of grey then why can't I join Estarra's Order or something? How else am I supposed to pick a side when they're all equally as viable and equally unsuited for me? How is it that when I understand things as Estarra does I don't have an organization that supports these views?

Lord @Weiwae 's Order is the closest thing and he still is on New Celest, which means I have to deal with genocidal zealots and hypocritical Supernals.

Dealing with zealots, hypocrites and warmongers and the pressures they impose is part of complex rp, though. Even if you were rogue or part of a 'neutral city' you'd have to deal with them. Though if there were any neutral org with skillsets that were equivalent in power to the other orgs, I don't think it'd make sense for them to stay neutral for long, both from a meta perspective and an IC perspective.

Faeie

Falaeron said:

Okay let's just say your idea is the best thing ever and it fit in the design of the game (note: it doesn't - people are very clearly meant to pick a side and develop their characters' RP accordingly).

Well if the design IS meant for people to pick a side and develop RP accordingly I find that extremely limiting. If it doesn't fit one of these six wildly arbitrary shades of grey I just go fuck myself I guess?

Falaeron said:

Now it's time to implement it. We're currently trying to cut down the number of guilds we have because most of them are underpopulated. I think one of the admins said at one point that deleting one or two orgs was actually discussed and they chose to go for the guilds as the less disruptive option. How do you propose we add an entirely new organisation without nuking at least one of the others?

I've nothing to say against that, I agree. That's a separate issue completely though and I don't think it invalidates the point I'm trying to make at all.

Maligorn

You're blowing this up into an extreme.

My solution to you: Raziela's dogma includes love for every single being, ever, even those that are Tainted. While not perfect, you can use that as a springboard of IC justification to tolerate and interact with other people of every single org. The only thing stopping you isn't Celest, or the Celestines, and especially not the Supernals. It's you. Modify your character's beliefs if they're so restrictive. You're allowed to do that. It's your character.

EDIT: Or ---join Gaudiguch---. They literally will not care who you associate with. However, the people you try to associate with -- it's their prerogative regardless of org to respond to you. You aren't going to change that.

Faeie

Shedrin said:

Dealing with zealots, hypocrites and warmongers and the pressures they impose is part of complex rp, though. Even if you were rogue or part of a 'neutral city' you'd have to deal with them. Though if there were any neutral org with skillsets that were equivalent in power to the other orgs, I don't think it'd make sense for them to stay neutral for long, both from a meta perspective and an IC perspective.

Honestly zealots were one thing but when the Gods or Supernals you follow stop being who they claimed to be you can't "deal" with it. That's when you just stop. You don't keep following. Sure you can't debate and change minds with equals but not with the very embodiment of what you preach.

Falaeron

Also I keep reading that the problem is that you, the player, can't decide which organisation is right or wrong. That's great, because that was the intention. It is not what we, as players, necessarily think about the ideals promoted by each organisation but what our characters think that is most important. The best thing is that we decide how we want to develop our characters so that they fit within the bounds of the game's design rules.

Falaeron

Faeie said:

Falaeron said:

Okay let's just say your idea is the best thing ever and it fit in the design of the game (note: it doesn't - people are very clearly meant to pick a side and develop their characters' RP accordingly).

Well if the design IS meant for people to pick a side and develop RP accordingly I find that extremely limiting. If it doesn't fit one of these six wildly arbitrary shades of grey I just go fuck myself I guess?

I don't know how to put this politely but... yeah?

At least if you are going to choose to take such a narrow view on the organisations, anyway.

Daraius

Faeie said:

Honestly zealots were one thing but when the Gods or Supernals you follow stop being who they claimed to be you can't "deal" with it. That's when you just stop. You don't keep following. Sure you can't debate and change minds with equals but not with the very embodiment of what you preach.

That's something people struggle with IRL too. You are getting a pretty genuine experience, it sounds like!

Faeie

Maligorn said:

You're blowing this up into an extreme.

My solution to you: Raziela's dogma includes love for every single being, ever, even those that are Tainted. While not perfect, you can use that as a springboard of IC justification to tolerate and interact with other people of every single org. The only thing stopping you isn't Celest, or the Celestines, and especially not the Supernals. It's you. Modify your character's beliefs if they're so restrictive. You're allowed to do that. It's your character.

I can't do that though, because Raziela is only one of five. The whole point of the org is to follow all five of them. And if Methrenton can do whatever he wants and call for Genocide whenever without any of the other four getting in the way then what's the point of being part of that org?

Yes I understand a lot of what I'm saying is a personal issue. I realize this. It comes from a profound need to be true to myself and so it makes me incredibly uncomfortable to represent a cause that doesn't represent me. What you're telling me to "adjust" from my character is to be more zealous about it, that's what you're telling me. Stop doubting, just close your eyes and keep following your org without questioning. And they're terrified this is gonna get them kicked from any organization they might join because they're all so goddamn single-minded.

Anita

I would just like to point out that there a great many people who don't do PVP and interact with whoever they want. And they're not rogue.

EDIT: Also, I understand that as a player it doesn't sit with you right, but..you're playing a character. It's meant to be roleplay. I would be lying if I said Anita is nothing like me, she is in some way, but there are other parts of her that are 100% a character and a lot of the RP/decisions I made with Anita would have been purely RP - I wouldn't make those decisions IRL and sometimes I'm sitting here saying 'WTF - did I just do that? Did I say that? IS this happening?" Sometimes you gotta take everything with a pinch of salt and suck it up. Serenwilde isn't perfect, but you're not berated for not getting into combat or wanting to do other things with your time.

Maligorn

So actually it's not a personal issue, but your rather limited view on other Celestians and their roleplay tendencies (are you really trying to say they're all zealots and singleminded, lol). Methrenton doesn't have some authority over the other Supernals. Where are you even getting all of this from, because it sounds like you're speculating on what may be instead of what has actually happened.

Follow all 5 Supernals, sure. But there's --literally-- a skill in Celestialism that allows you to deepbond to a particular Supernal, which sets the stage for the one you hold in the highest esteem and follow most closely.