Ok, Lavinya makes a good point about Sylandra's self-watching. Identifying investigators etc. actually seems quite scummy in that light, and it is useless as a means to identify traitors/soulless without immunity to night actions.
But I am also now even less inclined to believe the 'vanishing' immunity power Sylandra marked for herself every night in the Night action summary a few pages back. While Silvanus does like to include a hell of a lot of immunities, I simply do not believe she was vanishing every night. I'd hazard a guess at Selenity having the most immunities with a probable 3-shot.
Shaddus' action also didn't fail. The flavour wasn't "You try to follow Sylandra but she vanishes on a forest breeze" or whatever. He followed her avatar to the Northern Wastes, which is not a forest of the First World. He said himself that he did not believe the Hoaracle claim.
I've looked back to the "have Breandryn target me to confirm me" plan, and Breandryn 'liked' the plan which makes me inclined to believe she
was going to follow it. She said Breandryn never got to deliver the
package, but getting killed shouldn't have stopped the delivery. It's usually, you go
do your thing, you get stabbed in the back on your way home, etc. That Breandryn died before being able to confirm is now seeming even more suspect.
So
barring someone else saying that they got Breandryn's gift instead, I'm
now very wary of what a Soulless' extra power could be.
Soulless One: You are a Herald of Magnora and you only have only ever known one thing in life, and you will not stop until you have consumed all else. You must kill everyone outside of the other Soulless, if you attack another Soulless, you will both be repulsed and blocked. If you fail to kill three nights in a row, you will no longer be known as the Almighty.
The Almighty: You are the Kethuru the Almighty, you can either withstand any death one time or kill someone through protection one time.
The Soulless One part of Portius' reveal I think confirms that the Soulless aren't going around blocking, resetting days, or investigating etc. So Illith's likely own 'the Leviathan' power, with the potential of a bonus power from Breandryn, and the potential inheritance of Kethuru's Almighty power makes her the priority lynch for me.
I don't think Lavinya's off the hook yet, but if she's bluffing having powers that aren't omnomnom she's playing it very cool.
But I'm heading off for the
weekend bright and early and not sure how readily I'll be able
to keep up, so to mark my updated priority.
Unvote Vote Sylandra
(I am 100% expecting a sneaky lynch surprise!)
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
My role is being played to the best of its ability, for the record. Throwing myself under the axe to prove my role is half the story. I'll say it for the 100th time, you guys just don't have line of sight to some things yet.
Okay, that's good to know and actually makes me less suspicious of your actions re: daykill.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
My guardian power is also one shot. How awkward would it be to intercept a jailing? Or armour delivery? Hindsight is great and all but I was hardly deliberately sucking at being a hero.
I was reading being a guardian as this kind of power. Is that wrong? Or are you more of a one-off self-targeting bus driver?
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
It works more like a self-targeting bus driver I guess because it just intercepts the power used on the person and directs it to me. It doesn't give them what is directed at me and if they are killed, I die instead. An expansion on bodyguard I guess where it applies to all powers. That double-edged sword.
I can get behind Sylsndra lynch, she's essentially claimed to be a self watching commuter. I want to force Lavi on her reset power first though. And before that I want to see how the mod post for Dylara vs Ushaara plays out, so holding onto my vote for now.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
(I'm in the middle of grading, looked at the thread, and I realize if I'm lynched in the middle of these essays I will never forgive myself for not posting. So please forgive the length of this post, as I wanted to be sure I laid out all my thoughts in my defense before any traction takes place, especially if it occurs while I'm MIA.)
-----
So this is interesting to me for a few reasons.
Let's recap my claim so far: Hoaracle. Self-watching commuter. Town.
N1 we know that @Shaddus, now verified as the tracker, targeted me. He saw me vanish into the night. When he asked me on Day 2, "What did you do last night, Sylandra?" I replied "You're the only person in the game who knows." Upon prodding from @Fyler, he disclosed I vanished when investigated, and the fact that I saw him led him to believe I had self-watching powers. I confirmed this was true and claimed Hoaracle. No one has counter claimed that role.
I have claimed that no one has targeted me any night since. No one has counter claimed this.
My ability's pros and cons as a townie: Pros: A commuter power prevents conversion & death to Soulless. It guarantees a consistent townie stays in play as long as I don't get caught in a mislynch. The self-watching is designed to catch a potential cult recruiter or Soulless in the act. Excellent custom role for a game with cults in play, and combines two traditionally town roles into one.
Cons: Can't be verified by investigation. Can't be tracked or jailed. If outed early game, as it was via @Shaddus, the self-watching ability becomes fundamentally useless as no Soulless or cult recruiter would dare risk converting/killing someone who could potentially catch them red-handed (Particularly since so many of you are claiming no night abilities, I'll add!).
With that in mind,
1) Let's say I started the game town, which I did.
Pretend you're @Vivet and you tried to convert me on Night 1. If you targeted me the same night that Shaddus did, wouldn't it follow that 1) the action wouldn't complete just as Shaddus's didn't complete (ie, I'd "vanish"), and 2) I'd have seen her target me? It's highly unlikely a commuter ability designed like mine would arbitrarily allow conversion but not tracking.
So let's say it's Night 2 onward. Would you try to convert me as a cult recruiter, knowing that I had seen Shaddus approach me and he had confirmed I was correct? Would the risk, as a cult recruiter (sans Fain), be worth it? I've already proven that I saw Shaddus at night. He himself confirmed he targeted me. Arguments like @Othero's "I think Sylandra was converted last night" are severely underestimating the intelligence of the scum team.
Why would you put yourself in that much risk to recruit me, particularly when the alternative - an unverifiable lynch scapegoat - is on the table?
2) Let's say I started the game as a Soulless, which I didn't.
We already saw Portius's role sheet. Portius had one major ability: "Almighty" which could be either an immunity or a strongarm kill. The only other Soulless we feel confident is in play is Illith, and we don't feasibly know her abilities.
But really, why would I get a blanket night AND investigative immunity, when Portius was limited to one kill immunity (which, I'll add, was possible for him to lose)? Is Illith that much more powerful than Kethuru? It seems rather overpowered for a scum ability, especially if I can self-watch, commute, AND kill all at once.
And I have to ask. What is the point of Illith having a self-watch ability, if she can learn who Soulless are just from accidentally targeting them in the first place? Is it not enough for her to be investigatively immune? Does she have to know who the townie powerhouses are, too? Like, damn.
You're all giving me a great deal of credit here for being a nefarious villain, but traditionally speaking, scum roles aren't as OP as this. Fain and Kethuru certainly weren't this OP.
And what are the odds of correctly guessing no one would be Hoaracle on Day 2, and that Triumvirate wasn't a mason group? Hot damn, am I clairvoyant or what? We have no evidence of safe-claims so far, and it's frankly ballsy to pick a Triumvirate when no one else has claimed one so early on. Especially when people were pretty convinced Shaddus was Jadice for a bit.
But perhaps I'm an investigative immune/safe-claim holding/nightproof/self-watching/Soulless killing superstar. That works, too!
3) Let's admit the main reason you want to lynch me is because I'm not verifiable.
Neither are any of you, frankly. Aside from Weiwae, who Luce confirmed before dying, and Phoebus, who claimed Lisaera when we knew she was in play, everyone else is one giant unverifiable question mark. And don't you damn well pretend otherwise. Throw in cults, and it's a whole circus of who-is-what.
Our investigator, @Luce? Dead. Our tracker, @Shaddus? Also dead! @Breandryn, who was the closest I had to salvation? Dead to my great dismay, rip.
All we have now is two jailers. But even if we jail a Soulless, all that means is the person who was jailed was either a target of an attack OR an attacker. It's not a guarantee by any means of what someone is or isn't, unless you believe @Yomoigu's claim, which I'm not really sure I do yet.
I'd also like to add that anyone who says "How interesting that @Breandryn died when she was going to target you!" is, well, ignoring the fact that Breandryn dying would also be really excellent for anyone who felt like framing townie!me today. Or framing me ever! I limit the kills a Soulless can do at night, and I limit who a cult recruiter can target, just by existing.
That makes killing me sound really good to all anti-town factions. So if you gain anything from lynching me, it's a lynch train that I hope you investigate the absolute hell out of.
----
tldr; I claimed a big Elder Wars character on Day 2 and have had my power verified. Lavinya was one of the last to claim, has powers that are difficult to prove, and a role that has all of two sentences in the Elder Wars. You can't verify either of our alignments at this point in the game.
I don't really think me wanting to lynch her is unreasonable.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Am I the unverifiable lynch scapegoat? I think that's probably why I haven't been converted to date. I face a lynch every time there's no clear suspect.
You're using an absurdist argument in point 2 to try and ridicule some of the suspicion, but no one is accusing you of being all that. You weren't tracker immune, and likely weren't investigation immune.
Odds of no one else being Hoaracle? Quite good. From what was already revealed of the roles, looked like most were going to be 'bookname Elders.'
I'd potentially buy commuter if Shaddus' action failed (it didn't), or if you didn't use it as your alibi for every night.
For me your suspicion of your claim came down to it all hinging on selfwatching, which is notoriously mod-dependent.
I was waiting for the actual post about the used day abilities before doing anything, but it's been a bit and we should probably get this to twilight to see that power get used sooner rather than later.
Vote: Lavinya
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Am I the unverifiable lynch scapegoat? I think that's probably why I haven't been converted to date. I face a lynch every time there's no clear suspect.
You're using an absurdist argument in point 2 to try and ridicule some of the suspicion, but no one is accusing you of being all that. You weren't tracker immune, and likely weren't investigation immune.
Odds of no one else being Hoaracle? Quite good. From what was already revealed of the roles, looked like most were going to be 'bookname Elders.'
I'd potentially buy commuter if Shaddus' action failed (it didn't), or if you didn't use it as your alibi for every night.
For me your suspicion of your claim came down to it all hinging on selfwatching, which is notoriously mod-dependent.
It's entirely possible you and I are both town, and both scapegoats. I think your design, if town, was made to be a miller scapegoat. Mine just turned out that way because of the way in which my powers unfolded. Potato, potahto.
I've said my piece regarding myself. Whether or not you believe it is your prerogative, but I am self-watching and I am commuting, and I can't control the flavor Silvanus makes regarding that. All I can tell you is that's what in practice occurred when Shaddus targeted me, no matter how he himself interpreted it.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I think we're at it, if not past it? I don't quite recall and it's been very hard to follow the last day or so because the forums being so broken. Barely works on my phone.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Apologies for the tardiness, but votes don't matter anymore:
The last of the Elders gather together along Mount Dynara, focusing their efforts on the Soulless menace and how best to stop them. Ushaara continues to bring up some various points, tying threads from seemingly nowhere together, rambling on until he is about to reach the point. Dylara, hearing enough, executes Ushaara, hacking his form until only a mutilitiated husk remains.
The Third Circle gather up Ushaara's remains when they notice that the life force still lives inside Ushaara, and together with some of the Third Circle's most recent developments, they are able to reform Ushaara into some resemblance of who he once was.
Ushaara lives.
The Circles continue to argue amongst themselves, this next time turning their gaze to Lavinya. How can such a person exist like her? Some argue, some question their own powers against such overwhelming apparent forces. The Elders circle around her, knives in hand as they prod her into the Exile portal. You are all sure that Lavinya had disappeared and fell into the portal, but here she is.
Lavinya resets the day.
I think the day was set to end soon but I will extend the timeline by 48 hours. I am sorry again.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
3
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Yeah that doesn't read to me as Zvoltz defending anyone at all so Vote Lavinya.
(Also @Ushaara's text is not what I expected. He was rebuilt by the Third Circle, not protected? Kind of wonder if this is like a Reign Lavinya situation where alignment flips on death.)
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Ah here, you've gone from an absurdist argument to just absurd with my alignment now flipping on death theory. I said the Third Circle would swoop in to keep me alive. If my wounds were so bad I had to be essentially reformed, blame the extent of Dylara's brutalizing.
Nice try to paint me as even more suspicious though!
Vote Sylandra
(Do agree Lavinya's reset day text is very ambiguous and no clear Zvoltz identity from it, but simply think you're the greater threat.)
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Just voicing my thoughts, bro! Being rebuilt is kind of sketchy!
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Ok, well I had no say in the flavour of the attack, or in the flavour of how the Third Circle would save me.
So from my point of view, you using that argument against me is right-back-atcha sketchy!
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Funny how you're pointing at me for flavor Shaddus received that I can't control, but when I do the same back with your mod kill-safe text, suddenly I'm the sketchy one for playing that game? Okay.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
@Ushaara while you are being selective in which fluff is listened to, you're hardly alone in that regard (looking at you @Sylandra). I could go either way on this one honestly, and the fact that two of the most controversial people in the game are leading the charge isn't making the choice easy.
Well when i was forced to use it to save myself, how on earth could it possibly look like me defending myself? Sylandra picks and chooses at fluff to suit herself but frankly I think she just wants me gone because I have her number now and she doesn't want me to convince anyone else. I prove myself where she is conveniently unverifiable but oh that fluff didn't say what I wanted it to do let's lynch her. "I have no idea why my fluff would say I disappear into the wastes rather than a forest or something but hey it's fluff don't read into it OMG LAVINYA FLUFF DID NOT EXPLICITLY OUT HER AS ZVOLTZ KILL KILL."
Sylandra is a very very good player making it more likely people will ignore what she glosses over regarding herself and focus on what she highlights instead. She's pretty amazing at this redirection business.
Comments
But I am also now even less inclined to believe the 'vanishing' immunity power Sylandra marked for herself every night in the Night action summary a few pages back. While Silvanus does like to include a hell of a lot of immunities, I simply do not believe she was vanishing every night. I'd hazard a guess at Selenity having the most immunities with a probable 3-shot.
Shaddus' action also didn't fail. The flavour wasn't "You try to follow Sylandra but she vanishes on a forest breeze" or whatever. He followed her avatar to the Northern Wastes, which is not a forest of the First World. He said himself that he did not believe the Hoaracle claim.
I've looked back to the "have Breandryn target me to confirm me" plan, and Breandryn 'liked' the plan which makes me inclined to believe she was going to follow it. She said Breandryn never got to deliver the package, but getting killed shouldn't have stopped the delivery. It's usually, you go do your thing, you get stabbed in the back on your way home, etc. That Breandryn died before being able to confirm is now seeming even more suspect.
So barring someone else saying that they got Breandryn's gift instead, I'm now very wary of what a Soulless' extra power could be.
The Soulless One part of Portius' reveal I think confirms that the Soulless aren't going around blocking, resetting days, or investigating etc. So Illith's likely own 'the Leviathan' power, with the potential of a bonus power from Breandryn, and the potential inheritance of Kethuru's Almighty power makes her the priority lynch for me.
I don't think Lavinya's off the hook yet, but if she's bluffing having powers that aren't omnomnom she's playing it very cool.
But I'm heading off for the weekend bright and early and not sure how readily I'll be able to keep up, so to mark my updated priority.
Unvote
Vote Sylandra
(I am 100% expecting a sneaky lynch surprise!)
-----
So this is interesting to me for a few reasons.
Let's recap my claim so far: Hoaracle. Self-watching commuter. Town.
N1 we know that @Shaddus, now verified as the tracker, targeted me. He saw me vanish into the night. When he asked me on Day 2, "What did you do last night, Sylandra?" I replied "You're the only person in the game who knows." Upon prodding from @Fyler, he disclosed I vanished when investigated, and the fact that I saw him led him to believe I had self-watching powers. I confirmed this was true and claimed Hoaracle. No one has counter claimed that role.
I have claimed that no one has targeted me any night since. No one has counter claimed this.
My ability's pros and cons as a townie:
Pros: A commuter power prevents conversion & death to Soulless. It guarantees a consistent townie stays in play as long as I don't get caught in a mislynch. The self-watching is designed to catch a potential cult recruiter or Soulless in the act. Excellent custom role for a game with cults in play, and combines two traditionally town roles into one.
Cons: Can't be verified by investigation. Can't be tracked or jailed. If outed early game, as it was via @Shaddus, the self-watching ability becomes fundamentally useless as no Soulless or cult recruiter would dare risk converting/killing someone who could potentially catch them red-handed (Particularly since so many of you are claiming no night abilities, I'll add!).
With that in mind,
1) Let's say I started the game town, which I did.
Pretend you're @Vivet and you tried to convert me on Night 1. If you targeted me the same night that Shaddus did, wouldn't it follow that 1) the action wouldn't complete just as Shaddus's didn't complete (ie, I'd "vanish"), and 2) I'd have seen her target me? It's highly unlikely a commuter ability designed like mine would arbitrarily allow conversion but not tracking.
So let's say it's Night 2 onward. Would you try to convert me as a cult recruiter, knowing that I had seen Shaddus approach me and he had confirmed I was correct? Would the risk, as a cult recruiter (sans Fain), be worth it? I've already proven that I saw Shaddus at night. He himself confirmed he targeted me. Arguments like @Othero's "I think Sylandra was converted last night" are severely underestimating the intelligence of the scum team.
Why would you put yourself in that much risk to recruit me, particularly when the alternative - an unverifiable lynch scapegoat - is on the table?
2) Let's say I started the game as a Soulless, which I didn't.
We already saw Portius's role sheet. Portius had one major ability: "Almighty" which could be either an immunity or a strongarm kill. The only other Soulless we feel confident is in play is Illith, and we don't feasibly know her abilities.
But really, why would I get a blanket night AND investigative immunity, when Portius was limited to one kill immunity (which, I'll add, was possible for him to lose)? Is Illith that much more powerful than Kethuru? It seems rather overpowered for a scum ability, especially if I can self-watch, commute, AND kill all at once.
And I have to ask. What is the point of Illith having a self-watch ability, if she can learn who Soulless are just from accidentally targeting them in the first place? Is it not enough for her to be investigatively immune? Does she have to know who the townie powerhouses are, too? Like, damn.
You're all giving me a great deal of credit here for being a nefarious villain, but traditionally speaking, scum roles aren't as OP as this. Fain and Kethuru certainly weren't this OP.
And what are the odds of correctly guessing no one would be Hoaracle on Day 2, and that Triumvirate wasn't a mason group? Hot damn, am I clairvoyant or what? We have no evidence of safe-claims so far, and it's frankly ballsy to pick a Triumvirate when no one else has claimed one so early on. Especially when people were pretty convinced Shaddus was Jadice for a bit.
But perhaps I'm an investigative immune/safe-claim holding/nightproof/self-watching/Soulless killing superstar. That works, too!
3) Let's admit the main reason you want to lynch me is because I'm not verifiable.
Neither are any of you, frankly. Aside from Weiwae, who Luce confirmed before dying, and Phoebus, who claimed Lisaera when we knew she was in play, everyone else is one giant unverifiable question mark. And don't you damn well pretend otherwise. Throw in cults, and it's a whole circus of who-is-what.
Our investigator, @Luce? Dead. Our tracker, @Shaddus? Also dead! @Breandryn, who was the closest I had to salvation? Dead to my great dismay, rip.
All we have now is two jailers. But even if we jail a Soulless, all that means is the person who was jailed was either a target of an attack OR an attacker. It's not a guarantee by any means of what someone is or isn't, unless you believe @Yomoigu's claim, which I'm not really sure I do yet.
I'd also like to add that anyone who says "How interesting that @Breandryn died when she was going to target you!" is, well, ignoring the fact that Breandryn dying would also be really excellent for anyone who felt like framing townie!me today. Or framing me ever! I limit the kills a Soulless can do at night, and I limit who a cult recruiter can target, just by existing.
That makes killing me sound really good to all anti-town factions. So if you gain anything from lynching me, it's a lynch train that I hope you investigate the absolute hell out of.
----
tldr; I claimed a big Elder Wars character on Day 2 and have had my power verified. Lavinya was one of the last to claim, has powers that are difficult to prove, and a role that has all of two sentences in the Elder Wars. You can't verify either of our alignments at this point in the game.
I don't really think me wanting to lynch her is unreasonable.
You're using an absurdist argument in point 2 to try and ridicule some of the suspicion, but no one is accusing you of being all that. You weren't tracker immune, and likely weren't investigation immune.
Odds of no one else being Hoaracle? Quite good. From what was already revealed of the roles, looked like most were going to be 'bookname Elders.'
I'd potentially buy commuter if Shaddus' action failed (it didn't), or if you didn't use it as your alibi for every night.
For me your suspicion of your claim came down to it all hinging on selfwatching, which is notoriously mod-dependent.
Vote Lavinya
Vote: Lavinya
I've said my piece regarding myself. Whether or not you believe it is your prerogative, but I am self-watching and I am commuting, and I can't control the flavor Silvanus makes regarding that. All I can tell you is that's what in practice occurred when Shaddus targeted me, no matter how he himself interpreted it.
Curious to see how Lavinya's power turns out.
let's see how this goes.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
(Also @Ushaara's text is not what I expected. He was rebuilt by the Third Circle, not protected? Kind of wonder if this is like a Reign Lavinya situation where alignment flips on death.)
Nice try to paint me as even more suspicious though!
Vote Sylandra
(Do agree Lavinya's reset day text is very ambiguous and no clear Zvoltz identity from it, but simply think you're the greater threat.)
So from my point of view, you using that argument against me is right-back-atcha sketchy!
Anyway chill out girl, I voted Lavinya not you.
Vote: Lavinya
Whatever the flavour of my Third Circle message was, it did what I said it would do. It saved me.
You are claiming commuter, which takes you out of the game for the night. You're also claiming you commuted every night.
If you were telling the truth, whatever Shaddus' flavour message was, it should have indicated failure.
The crux is that he successfully followed you -> You're not a commuter.
If you do flip town, then oops, and I'll have another "precision of language" message for Silvanus.
But anyhoo, time for others to decide for themselves.
Full disclosure: I don't buy the Zvoltz claim and honestly just wanted that power used up.
Vote: Lavinya.
Sylandra is a very very good player making it more likely people will ignore what she glosses over regarding herself and focus on what she highlights instead. She's pretty amazing at this redirection business.