The game would be monumentally better off if we just deleted melds and converted mage effects to mobile passives and balance accordingly.
So bards with staves
The deep, rumbling voice of Weiwae says from within your heart, "I am so happy to hear of your progress, and I thank you for bringing my influence over more shards of My Brother Tae."
Personally, I really like the idea of melds. I love the concept, and the interaction/impact with the environment is very cool in theory. I agree it isn't appealing to be the melder in group combat, but isn't there a way to address this without necessarily doing away with melds entirely?
My personal wishlist would be two main changes (with the first being the most important)
Allow melders to invite other mages/druids of the same nation into their link, so that they all have equal control over the demesne. - Effects wouldn't stack, and some active demesne-wide abilities would need either a shared cooldown (ie, unleash), or an exclusive lock (ie, one melder's phantomsphere blocks anyone else in the link using it)
Change protection so that it becomes a general defence that causes hostile demesne effects to be resisted based on the number of allies in your room that also have the defence active. - The exception to this rule is that instead of dissolve, a mage/druid linked to the active demesne has an active ability to focus on one enemy at a time, which causes them to get the full demesne effects and not count towards protection of any of their allies. This would have to be applied in the same room by the mage/druid, and would fade after a small amount of time if they aren't in the presence of the melder. - For example, if you are on your own in a hostile demesne with protection up, you resist one effect per tick (of the same list of effects current protection does). If you have one protected ally with you, you both resist two effects per tick. If you have two allies, you all resist three effects. If you are focused on by a melder with two protected allies, you get hit by all the demesne effects, and they resist two effects.
That probably doesn't solve the underlying issue, but I like the idea of being able to coordinate with other friendly demesne-users and possibly not being a sole target if you choose to take part using one of the meld skillsets.
So I've heard a lot of good ideas. Elryn's post is something I've heard before.
If multiple melders were able to share control of a meld, one of them dying would be far less punishing. There'd have to be caveats, of course -- like if the master melder dies, all effects drop but the rooms stay melded, things like unleash and stalkers only able to be used by the master, so on and so forth. It also alleviates that "third in line to meld" issue that Fyler mentioned. There's also that demesne focus that Falmiis mentioned a long time ago to me, which I appreciate.
If the defensive were to be implemented, I now do agree with Veyils (and Falmiis) that all effects should go dormant for the duration as a nice balance. Though my particular solution shouldn't be mixed with the above, of course.
I do agree that it's possible to stay reasonably healthy in your own meld and that you can take lots of steps to stay alive, but just like Fyler said -- it can be really fun or really terrible as far as enjoyment. For me, it's pretty lame a lot of the time.
If multiple melders were able to share control of a meld, one of them dying would be far less punishing. There'd have to be caveats, of course -- like if the master melder dies, all effects drop but the rooms stay melded, things like unleash and stalkers only able to be used by the master, so on and so forth. It also alleviates that "third in line to meld" issue that Fyler mentioned. There's also that demesne focus that Falmiis mentioned a long time ago to me, which I appreciate.
Isn't this just a huge buff to melds and the fortress meta?
So now if I want to push through an unbreakable meld point I need to kill two or maybe three people?
If multiple melders were able to share control of a meld, one of them dying would be far less punishing. There'd have to be caveats, of course -- like if the master melder dies, all effects drop but the rooms stay melded, things like unleash and stalkers only able to be used by the master, so on and so forth. It also alleviates that "third in line to meld" issue that Fyler mentioned. There's also that demesne focus that Falmiis mentioned a long time ago to me, which I appreciate.
Isn't this just a huge buff to melds and the fortress meta?
So now if I want to push through an unbreakable meld point I need to kill two or maybe three people?
I'd rather see melds become a purely defensive/supportive aspect rather than offensive ground control.
We're already nerfing the hell out of (and potentially deleting) pits, so I'd be happy to see melds become a "If you control the terrain you and your allies benefit from x/y/z" and not have the offensive capabilities they do now.
Then as a tradeoff put more actual active offence into the mage/druid themselves.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I think most of what needs/people want to be done with melds requires massive rewrites and let's face it They are already behind on about a hundred things (number arbitrary for exaggeration) so tackling melds might be a 2020 project.
So, again, I want to reiterate that no class is as punished as a melder for dying. I don't consider it a "huge buff" to melds -- I don't think any of the ideas presented so far constitute that. You can stack a ton of classes, but not primary melders. Bards can literally get up and go as soon as they revive and still be effective via the Music skillset. When you kill a melder, they suddenly go from "too influential" to totally useless if they can't get back up and establish themselves again.
Again, report 1329 and report 1574 already have nerfed melds pretty hard. If you have to consider it a huge buff, then understand it's coming from having a fairly large nerf.
No class is as punished, but no class also has such a stranglehold on combat as a melder does. No other class can tip the scales by one side having it and the other not, especially since the pit nerfs.
I don't see why we're trying to retain fortress meta with this at all, I don't mind melds becoming some form of friendly support but as long as they remain offensively strong and critical to bring, I don't see any reason to make mages or druids tankier. If you don't want to be primaried, tone down the effects of melds.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Make melds non-exclusive. Remove the contiguous requirement (the rooms don't have to be all connected up). Then Elryn's ideas on meld effects. Meld effects only tick on focused targets + in own room or in adjacent etc
This removes the "have to charge into a breakpoint" thing and lessens the fortress meta, hopefully.
Make melds non-exclusive. Remove the contiguous requirement (the rooms don't have to be all connected up). Then Elryn's ideas on meld effects. Meld effects only tick on focused targets + in own room or in adjacent etc
This removes the "have to charge into a breakpoint" thing and lessens the fortress meta, hopefully.
So I can hide a meld room on our ship, invite a group of our melders to join in on it, and then just have all of our meld effects active and timed wherever we chose to drop it?
Given how melds currently work, it seems like it'd be a fight of timing. With two melders you'd sync forcing and melding before your effects are due to hit. For double the lol's you could time an ally meld and have their melding team drop their effects right after yours pop. Possibly even all three if you're really good and have the numbers.
Also like, would melds be a thing? With coordination, it shouldn't be too hard to realitycheck/chop and force to clear it out without the contiguous rule reinforcing it.
Unless non-exclusive means multiple different melds can exist in the same room cause... well enjoy fighting against an aqua-aero-forest meld?
-----
A thing that might work, maybe, could be to put a limiter on the number of effects. Especially if we're getting multiple melders involved, like the meld could have all of your base effects, doldrums, embedded motes, fierceweather, and embedded runes. (sans weather for mages)
Having like... meld slots and forcing people to pick and choose the configuration of their meld could be another way to go. You could create effects that are good for solo but not so useful in group combat and vice versa(perhaps with some being exclusive). Obviously, you can't have them all at the same time, but if you've grouped up with a shaman they might be able to fierce weather for you.
If you combine it with Elryn's protection idea, the protection might work in order up the list to give the melders some control over what is going to hit.
You could make group things like buffs to your team, while solo stuff might be a damage effect that is spread among the number of people in the room when it's cast so if there's too many people it just doesn't do anything meaningful and you're wasting that slot.
Could also be neat if control was connected to squads somehow. So if two Hartstone are in the same squad, the meld is accessible to both of them.
I am aware that this is pretty much songs, but the collaborative nature and limitation of one meld per room could make things different. In theory you could allow different melder types to contribute to a single demesne, but the balancing could be horrendous
So, again, I want to reiterate that no class is as punished as a melder for dying. I don't consider it a "huge buff" to melds -- I don't think any of the ideas presented so far constitute that. You can stack a ton of classes, but not primary melders. Bards can literally get up and go as soon as they revive and still be effective via the Music skillset. When you kill a melder, they suddenly go from "too influential" to totally useless if they can't get back up and establish themselves again.
Again, report 1329 and report 1574 already have nerfed melds pretty hard. If you have to consider it a huge buff, then understand it's coming from having a fairly large nerf.
Ya its first world problems.
Melders are so powerful, useful and needed for group combat and still will be after these nerfs. I mean even with no meld active melders are still vitally important to group combat even if for no other reason than to start breaking an enemy meld to counter unleash and stuff. So melders who die and come back to a fight are still really really super useful to a group fight.
Its a case of either change melds and how vital they are too group combat or not.
You cant just be asking for buffs to individual melders or to the concept of melds as a whole because you died in ten seconds in a fight.
I mean I totally would get you asking for more buffs to a mages direct in the room offense. But asking for a super duper you cant kill me or drop my meld buff is just a bit mental if your not willing to give up the power of the meld in a group fight. Unless you want to super buff the fortress meta which I thought is something basically every envoy has been trying to move away from for like forever.
Thanks, Veyils. I do love being accused of a kneejerk reaction even though I've been playing as a melder for over a year now. It's also "mental" to say it's a super duper you can't kill me or drop my meld buff, imo. This isn't about "super buffing" the fortress meta, as much as introducing a mechanic that you see in plenty of other games -- if you see someone do x, and you continue to attack them, you're going to have a bad time, while also making melders actually fun and satisfying to play again to most people instead of a niche group of masochists, essentially. (That is a joke).
EDIT: You see this kind of mechanic already in the form of prismatics. It's generally not a good idea to focus someone you know has Serpent on a hair trigger (or maybe it's actually a great idea (edit2: it's good if it's a small/medium skirmish but a deadly mistake in large combat). Or if you focus a Celestine, they're going to trueheal while your own team gets whittled down because the enemies use their time more wisely. There was also Static, but it lasted way too long and contributed absolutely 0 to an Aerochemantic's kit.
Ultimately the idea I put forth is obviously flexible, tweak something here and remove something there.
So, again, I want to reiterate that no class is as punished as a melder for dying. I don't consider it a "huge buff" to melds -- I don't think any of the ideas presented so far constitute that. You can stack a ton of classes, but not primary melders. Bards can literally get up and go as soon as they revive and still be effective via the Music skillset. When you kill a melder, they suddenly go from "too influential" to totally useless if they can't get back up and establish themselves again.
Again, report 1329 and report 1574 already have nerfed melds pretty hard. If you have to consider it a huge buff, then understand it's coming from having a fairly large nerf.
Ya its first world problems.
Melders are so powerful, useful and needed for group combat and still will be after these nerfs. I mean even with no meld active melders are still vitally important to group combat even if for no other reason than to start breaking an enemy meld to counter unleash and stuff. So melders who die and come back to a fight are still really really super useful to a group fight.
Its a case of either change melds and how vital they are too group combat or not.
You cant just be asking for buffs to individual melders or to the concept of melds as a whole because you died in ten seconds in a fight.
I mean I totally would get you asking for more buffs to a mages direct in the room offense. But asking for a super duper you cant kill me or drop my meld buff is just a bit mental if your not willing to give up the power of the meld in a group fight. Unless you want to super buff the fortress meta which I thought is something basically every envoy has been trying to move away from for like forever.
I mean... you have protection scrolls that prevent what... half of the meld effects from hitting and drop the unleash damage? So if you happen to be in the room or adjacent then a druid meld will hit with treelife, thorns, and swarm?
The impact they will have on group combat is being reduced, the ability to remove a meld through killing the melder is being increased because of the need to be in the same room.
And so dying ten seconds into the fight is entirely a concern. Also, rebuilding and retiming your meld does actually take time, potentially a couple minutes at least which the enemy team can undo by killing you.
Like... you're demanding melds be changed and they have been?
He
posts he wants a super huge buff to his defense right after he posts
a complaining log about dying in ten seconds. Sorry for putting two and two together. But your right its not relevant to the conversation. It does remind me of that dreamweaver post a few months ago though.
Basically
everyone recognizes how super strong and important melds are and how
they still will be strong and important after the protection changes.
And
how by buffing melds or melders survivability you'll entrench the
fortress meta.
So
your basically asking to be one of the most important classes in the
game for group combat and also the hardest to kill.
First
world problems.
EDIT: I mean perhaps the protection nerf will make melds as relevant(or less so) to group combat as every other class is. I doubt it and from the sounds of it most of the envoys posting here are on the same page. But if it does then yea we can look at buffing mages but well until then why not prove that melds are no longer such a powerful part of group combat.
He
posts he wants a super huge buff to his defense right after he posts
a complaining log about dying in ten seconds. Sorry for putting two and two together. But your right its not relevant to the conversation. It does remind me of that dreamweaver post a few months ago though.
Basically
everyone recognizes how super strong and important melds are and how
they still will be strong and important after the protection changes.
And
how by buffing melds or melders survivability you'll entrench the
fortress meta.
So
your basically asking to be one of the most important classes in the
game for group combat and also the hardest to kill.
First
world problems.
EDIT: I mean perhaps the protection nerf will make melds as relevant(or less so) to group combat as every other class is. I doubt it and from the sounds of it most of the envoys posting here are on the same page. But if it does then yea we can look at buffing mages but well until then why not prove that melds are no longer such a powerful part of group combat.
So, a player has a negative experience with their class and then makes a post looking to improve it, particularly in light of oncoming changes that will make the situation worse? Will we invalidate envoy reports because they're based on experiences in the game?
I mean, it seems like you're really just opposed to melds. Rather than posting about changes which would get them to a state that you would prefer, you're just complaining and demanding nebulous "nerfs".
Is there any actual state that melders can get into that will satisfy your complaints? It really doesn't seem so. Even the full defense/support rework without changing their core mechanics seems like it would draw complaints because it would basically empower everyone inside the fortress.
Are any of the other ideas something that you're actually going to not hate?
So, a player has a negative experience with their class and then makes a post looking to improve it, particularly in light of oncoming changes that will make the situation worse? Will we invalidate envoy reports because they're based on experiences in the game?
I mean, it seems like you're really just opposed to melds. Rather than posting about changes which would get them to a state that you would prefer, you're just complaining and demanding nebulous "nerfs".
Is there any actual state that melders can get into that will satisfy your complaints? It really doesn't seem so. Even the full defense/support rework without changing their core mechanics seems like it would draw complaints because it would basically empower everyone inside the fortress.
Are any of the other ideas something that you're actually going to not hate?
Paragraph one. Your being a bit silly. Feelings and opinions are great and everyone should have them and I'm not going too invalidate someone because of their opinions and experience. I am going to invalidate it for other reasons such as logic and balance.
Paragraph two. I kinda of like melds but we have a thing in the game called balance. You want a super crazy damage shield and static effect or to make it harder to break melds you need to give up some of your existing power to get that. You don't just ask for big big buffs to a mechanic that is already fairly powerful.
Paragraph three. Yep Melds are powerful now and in an okish balance state and still will be with the protection nerf I think(Need to see the change in practice to be 100% sure). They may not be fun but thats a difference issue to address. Which is a good point to bring up but we'll we cant just give people a super tanky damage shield and static effect because it sounds fun we need to reffer back to the balance concept.
And last question sure I've heard some great ideas but you have to balance them out. Like letting multi people hold a meld sounds like a fun concept but if you did it without balancing the effects you'd just be giving a huge buff to the meld and fortress meta. Please refer back to Paragraph two in how we need to work for this thing called balance.
So, again, I want to reiterate that no class is as punished as a melder for dying. I don't consider it a "huge buff" to melds -- I don't think any of the ideas presented so far constitute that. You can stack a ton of classes, but not primary melders. Bards can literally get up and go as soon as they revive and still be effective via the Music skillset. When you kill a melder, they suddenly go from "too influential" to totally useless if they can't get back up and establish themselves again.
Again, report 1329 and report 1574 already have nerfed melds pretty hard. If you have to consider it a huge buff, then understand it's coming from having a fairly large nerf.
Ya its first world problems.
Melders are so powerful, useful and needed for group combat and still will be after these nerfs. I mean even with no meld active melders are still vitally important to group combat even if for no other reason than to start breaking an enemy meld to counter unleash and stuff. So melders who die and come back to a fight are still really really super useful to a group fight.
Its a case of either change melds and how vital they are too group combat or not.
You cant just be asking for buffs to individual melders or to the concept of melds as a whole because you died in ten seconds in a fight.
I mean I totally would get you asking for more buffs to a mages direct in the room offense. But asking for a super duper you cant kill me or drop my meld buff is just a bit mental if your not willing to give up the power of the meld in a group fight. Unless you want to super buff the fortress meta which I thought is something basically every envoy has been trying to move away from for like forever.
I mean... you have protection scrolls that prevent what... half of the meld effects from hitting and drop the unleash damage? So if you happen to be in the room or adjacent then a druid meld will hit with treelife, thorns, and swarm?
The impact they will have on group combat is being reduced, the ability to remove a meld through killing the melder is being increased because of the need to be in the same room.
And so dying ten seconds into the fight is entirely a concern. Also, rebuilding and retiming your meld does actually take time, potentially a couple minutes at least which the enemy team can undo by killing you.
Like... you're demanding melds be changed and they have been?
Yes, Veyils, you put two and two together. You caught me! I haven't been playing melder for over a year and had many successes and failures with it, and can't make educated conclusions about it during my time. You also claim to be arguing on the side of logic and balance, right after saying I had a "kneejerk reaction". Really, I have felt this way about melding for a while now. Maybe you could say that that log was something that tipped me off that I needed to post about it, but it's not like I haven't been wondering about how to fix melder for months prior.
Retributive defenses aren't the end of the world. I never once suggested bringing the old static effect back, merely to reference it as a concept.
We've all seen your idea of balance, bud. P A R I T Y and all that.
As Saran said, you seem to just really not like melds.
This 'fortress meta' thing comes up a lot, but I'm not sure I quite understand the core issue. Is it that large groups of players stack too well, so going into a room with lots of opponents and their prepared attacks/effects isn't fun?
I assume that it isn't any better to have a 'steamroll meta', where passive/support effects are tuned way down, and instead large groups become mobile death squads where they can move in and pick off targets in seconds and then move off again?
I'd argue that resolving the stacking effect thing is probably better accomplished by penalizing large groups themselves, rather than homogenising archetypes excessively.
For example, I've always wanted to have some sort of 'chaos of battle' or close quarters penalty, where beyond a certain number of people in a room, active and passive effects have a chance of hitting random other people instead of their intended target, or splash damage onto allies/enemies alike in the room, or cause too many attacks against a single target to fail (the don't be so hasty equivalent of zerging!). But then maybe I'm not understanding the underlying problem.
Fights often boil down to both sides standing one room from another in their own meld/pits/passives aka fortresses, picking people off from the other side using skills like rad/beckon/chainyank etc until enough of one side has been depleted for the other side to feel they can push in. That's what the fortress meta is. It's not very fun and most of the fight is just trying to make sure that you have all of the necessary precautions to prevent you from being picked off, because you know the moment you get pulled into the enemy room you are dead.
This 'fortress meta' thing comes up a lot, but I'm not sure I quite understand the core issue. Is it that large groups of players stack too well, so going into a room with lots of opponents and their prepared attacks/effects isn't fun?
I assume that it isn't any better to have a 'steamroll meta', where passive/support effects are tuned way down, and instead large groups become mobile death squads where they can move in and pick off targets in seconds and then move off again?
I'd argue that resolving the stacking effect thing is probably better accomplished by penalizing large groups themselves, rather than homogenising archetypes excessively.
For example, I've always wanted to have some sort of 'chaos of battle' or close quarters penalty, where beyond a certain number of people in a room, active and passive effects have a chance of hitting random other people instead of their intended target, or splash damage onto allies/enemies alike in the room, or cause too many attacks against a single target to fail (the don't be so hasty equivalent of zerging!). But then maybe I'm not understanding the underlying problem.
Part of it is also that many of the conflict mechanics are single room based. Domoths being a chief example of this. If you're contesting in stage 1 but don't have control of the throne then you've lost, and if you're contesting in stage 2 and don't have control over the object you've lost. As long as melds help enable that control they will be necessary for these types of fights, and as long as they have that impact melders will be high on the target list.
All of that being said I'm totally in favor of adding some sort of diminishing returns to discourage the damage-stack/fortress meta. I think lusternian fights are best at around 3 people (which makes sense when you look at how war is set up), if you had some sort of diminishing returns after 3 people hitting someone I think that would open up combat quite a bit but would also be a fairly large universal change. You could also have passive effects have diminishing returns after 3 people effected as well (either positive or negative). So for example if you have more than 3 enemies in a room it selects 3 random enemies each tick. That would essentially make a melder into more of a bard but I think you're going to need a change like that if you want melders to not be priority #1.
I think if we did add diminishing returns we would be in a position of dealing with some other problems, namely that some people cannot be killed even by 3 people focusing them, and that running is too easy in most situations.
What if the conflict mechanics themselves were also adjusted? Like change domoth stage 2 to a rotating spawn ala KOTH hills or have multiple spawns that require secondary teams to help clear? That would help undercut the single room necessity and introduce some more tactical options.
Yes, Veyils, you put two and two together. You caught me! I haven't been playing melder for over a year and had many successes and failures with it, and can't make educated conclusions about it during my time. You also claim to be arguing on the side of logic and balance, right after saying I had a "kneejerk reaction". Really, I have felt this way about melding for a while now. Maybe you could say that that log was something that tipped me off that I needed to post about it, but it's not like I haven't been wondering about how to fix melder for months prior.
Retributive defenses aren't the end of the world. I never once suggested bringing the old static effect back, merely to reference it as a concept.
We've all seen your idea of balance, bud. P A R I T Y and all that.
As Saran said, you seem to just really not like melds.
Sorry sounds like I have have touched a nerve here. I should not have brought up your kneejerk reaction your right.
Comments
My personal wishlist would be two main changes (with the first being the most important)
- Allow melders to invite other mages/druids of the same nation into their link, so that they all have equal control over the demesne.
- Change protection so that it becomes a general defence that causes hostile demesne effects to be resisted based on the number of allies in your room that also have the defence active.
That probably doesn't solve the underlying issue, but I like the idea of being able to coordinate with other friendly demesne-users and possibly not being a sole target if you choose to take part using one of the meld skillsets.- Effects wouldn't stack, and some active demesne-wide abilities would need either a shared cooldown (ie, unleash), or an exclusive lock (ie, one melder's phantomsphere blocks anyone else in the link using it)
- The exception to this rule is that instead of dissolve, a mage/druid linked to the active demesne has an active ability to focus on one enemy at a time, which causes them to get the full demesne effects and not count towards protection of any of their allies. This would have to be applied in the same room by the mage/druid, and would fade after a small amount of time if they aren't in the presence of the melder.
- For example, if you are on your own in a hostile demesne with protection up, you resist one effect per tick (of the same list of effects current protection does). If you have one protected ally with you, you both resist two effects per tick. If you have two allies, you all resist three effects. If you are focused on by a melder with two protected allies, you get hit by all the demesne effects, and they resist two effects.
If multiple melders were able to share control of a meld, one of them dying would be far less punishing. There'd have to be caveats, of course -- like if the master melder dies, all effects drop but the rooms stay melded, things like unleash and stalkers only able to be used by the master, so on and so forth. It also alleviates that "third in line to meld" issue that Fyler mentioned. There's also that demesne focus that Falmiis mentioned a long time ago to me, which I appreciate.
If the defensive were to be implemented, I now do agree with Veyils (and Falmiis) that all effects should go dormant for the duration as a nice balance. Though my particular solution shouldn't be mixed with the above, of course.
I do agree that it's possible to stay reasonably healthy in your own meld and that you can take lots of steps to stay alive, but just like Fyler said -- it can be really fun or really terrible as far as enjoyment. For me, it's pretty lame a lot of the time.
Isn't this just a huge buff to melds and the fortress meta?
So now if I want to push through an unbreakable meld point I need to kill two or maybe three people?
We're already nerfing the hell out of (and potentially deleting) pits, so I'd be happy to see melds become a "If you control the terrain you and your allies benefit from x/y/z" and not have the offensive capabilities they do now.
Then as a tradeoff put more actual active offence into the mage/druid themselves.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Again, report 1329 and report 1574 already have nerfed melds pretty hard. If you have to consider it a huge buff, then understand it's coming from having a fairly large nerf.
I don't see why we're trying to retain fortress meta with this at all, I don't mind melds becoming some form of friendly support but as long as they remain offensively strong and critical to bring, I don't see any reason to make mages or druids tankier. If you don't want to be primaried, tone down the effects of melds.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
This removes the "have to charge into a breakpoint" thing and lessens the fortress meta, hopefully.
Accountability is necessary.
Given how melds currently work, it seems like it'd be a fight of timing. With two melders you'd sync forcing and melding before your effects are due to hit.
For double the lol's you could time an ally meld and have their melding team drop their effects right after yours pop. Possibly even all three if you're really good and have the numbers.
Also like, would melds be a thing? With coordination, it shouldn't be too hard to realitycheck/chop and force to clear it out without the contiguous rule reinforcing it.
Unless non-exclusive means multiple different melds can exist in the same room cause... well enjoy fighting against an aqua-aero-forest meld?
-----
A thing that might work, maybe, could be to put a limiter on the number of effects.
Especially if we're getting multiple melders involved, like the meld could have all of your base effects, doldrums, embedded motes, fierceweather, and embedded runes. (sans weather for mages)
Having like... meld slots and forcing people to pick and choose the configuration of their meld could be another way to go.
You could create effects that are good for solo but not so useful in group combat and vice versa(perhaps with some being exclusive).
Obviously, you can't have them all at the same time, but if you've grouped up with a shaman they might be able to fierce weather for you.
If you combine it with Elryn's protection idea, the protection might work in order up the list to give the melders some control over what is going to hit.
You could make group things like buffs to your team, while solo stuff might be a damage effect that is spread among the number of people in the room when it's cast so if there's too many people it just doesn't do anything meaningful and you're wasting that slot.
Could also be neat if control was connected to squads somehow. So if two Hartstone are in the same squad, the meld is accessible to both of them.
I am aware that this is pretty much songs, but the collaborative nature and limitation of one meld per room could make things different. In theory you could allow different melder types to contribute to a single demesne, but the balancing could be horrendous
Ya its first world problems.
Melders are so powerful, useful and needed for group combat and still will be after these nerfs. I mean even with no meld active melders are still vitally important to group combat even if for no other reason than to start breaking an enemy meld to counter unleash and stuff. So melders who die and come back to a fight are still really really super useful to a group fight.
Its a case of either change melds and how vital they are too group combat or not.
You cant just be asking for buffs to individual melders or to the concept of melds as a whole because you died in ten seconds in a fight.
I mean I totally would get you asking for more buffs to a mages direct in the room offense. But asking for a super duper you cant kill me or drop my meld buff is just a bit mental if your not willing to give up the power of the meld in a group fight. Unless you want to super buff the fortress meta which I thought is something basically every envoy has been trying to move away from for like forever.
EDIT: You see this kind of mechanic already in the form of prismatics. It's generally not a good idea to focus someone you know has Serpent on a hair trigger (or maybe it's actually a great idea (edit2: it's good if it's a small/medium skirmish but a deadly mistake in large combat). Or if you focus a Celestine, they're going to trueheal while your own team gets whittled down because the enemies use their time more wisely. There was also Static, but it lasted way too long and contributed absolutely 0 to an Aerochemantic's kit.
Ultimately the idea I put forth is obviously flexible, tweak something here and remove something there.
I mean... you have protection scrolls that prevent what... half of the meld effects from hitting and drop the unleash damage? So if you happen to be in the room or adjacent then a druid meld will hit with treelife, thorns, and swarm?
The impact they will have on group combat is being reduced, the ability to remove a meld through killing the melder is being increased because of the need to be in the same room.
And so dying ten seconds into the fight is entirely a concern. Also, rebuilding and retiming your meld does actually take time, potentially a couple minutes at least which the enemy team can undo by killing you.
Like... you're demanding melds be changed and they have been?
He posts he wants a super huge buff to his defense right after he posts a complaining log about dying in ten seconds. Sorry for putting two and two together. But your right its not relevant to the conversation. It does remind me of that dreamweaver post a few months ago though.
Basically everyone recognizes how super strong and important melds are and how they still will be strong and important after the protection changes.
And how by buffing melds or melders survivability you'll entrench the fortress meta.
So your basically asking to be one of the most important classes in the game for group combat and also the hardest to kill.
First world problems.
EDIT: I mean perhaps the protection nerf will make melds as relevant(or less so) to group combat as every other class is. I doubt it and from the sounds of it most of the envoys posting here are on the same page. But if it does then yea we can look at buffing mages but well until then why not prove that melds are no longer such a powerful part of group combat.
I mean, it seems like you're really just opposed to melds.
Rather than posting about changes which would get them to a state that you would prefer, you're just complaining and demanding nebulous "nerfs".
Is there any actual state that melders can get into that will satisfy your complaints? It really doesn't seem so. Even the full defense/support rework without changing their core mechanics seems like it would draw complaints because it would basically empower everyone inside the fortress.
Are any of the other ideas something that you're actually going to not hate?
Paragraph one. Your being a bit silly. Feelings and opinions are great and everyone should have them and I'm not going too invalidate someone because of their opinions and experience. I am going to invalidate it for other reasons such as logic and balance.
Paragraph two. I kinda of like melds but we have a thing in the game called balance. You want a super crazy damage shield and static effect or to make it harder to break melds you need to give up some of your existing power to get that. You don't just ask for big big buffs to a mechanic that is already fairly powerful.
Paragraph three. Yep Melds are powerful now and in an okish balance state and still will be with the protection nerf I think(Need to see the change in practice to be 100% sure). They may not be fun but thats a difference issue to address. Which is a good point to bring up but we'll we cant just give people a super tanky damage shield and static effect because it sounds fun we need to reffer back to the balance concept.
And last question sure I've heard some great ideas but you have to balance them out. Like letting multi people hold a meld sounds like a fun concept but if you did it without balancing the effects you'd just be giving a huge buff to the meld and fortress meta. Please refer back to Paragraph two in how we need to work for this thing called balance.
Retributive defenses aren't the end of the world. I never once suggested bringing the old static effect back, merely to reference it as a concept.
We've all seen your idea of balance, bud. P A R I T Y and all that.
As Saran said, you seem to just really not like melds.
I assume that it isn't any better to have a 'steamroll meta', where passive/support effects are tuned way down, and instead large groups become mobile death squads where they can move in and pick off targets in seconds and then move off again?
I'd argue that resolving the stacking effect thing is probably better accomplished by penalizing large groups themselves, rather than homogenising archetypes excessively.
For example, I've always wanted to have some sort of 'chaos of battle' or close quarters penalty, where beyond a certain number of people in a room, active and passive effects have a chance of hitting random other people instead of their intended target, or splash damage onto allies/enemies alike in the room, or cause too many attacks against a single target to fail (the don't be so hasty equivalent of zerging!). But then maybe I'm not understanding the underlying problem.
All of that being said I'm totally in favor of adding some sort of diminishing returns to discourage the damage-stack/fortress meta. I think lusternian fights are best at around 3 people (which makes sense when you look at how war is set up), if you had some sort of diminishing returns after 3 people hitting someone I think that would open up combat quite a bit but would also be a fairly large universal change. You could also have passive effects have diminishing returns after 3 people effected as well (either positive or negative). So for example if you have more than 3 enemies in a room it selects 3 random enemies each tick. That would essentially make a melder into more of a bard but I think you're going to need a change like that if you want melders to not be priority #1.
I think if we did add diminishing returns we would be in a position of dealing with some other problems, namely that some people cannot be killed even by 3 people focusing them, and that running is too easy in most situations.