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Cross planar who lists?
I'm certain this has been suggested before (I know I did in the Simple Ideas thread once last year), but I want to give this another shot!
Could we improve the 'feel' of how many players are actually in Lusternia by making most of the who lists work cross-plane? Currently it can feel as though the world is pretty empty most of the time. Even though many of the who lists seem to indicate there are other players "on other planes", I don't think this really conveys how populated and reachable most people are at any one time. Especially for guild and city populations - particularly lower ranked players trying to catch specific leaders online - I think changing this would have a significant positive effect on the game. This is despite how much I desperately love being able to hide completely in-game!
Anyway, my suggested take on this would be as follows:
So some examples of what this might look like below.
Could we improve the 'feel' of how many players are actually in Lusternia by making most of the who lists work cross-plane? Currently it can feel as though the world is pretty empty most of the time. Even though many of the who lists seem to indicate there are other players "on other planes", I don't think this really conveys how populated and reachable most people are at any one time. Especially for guild and city populations - particularly lower ranked players trying to catch specific leaders online - I think changing this would have a significant positive effect on the game. This is despite how much I desperately love being able to hide completely in-game!
Anyway, my suggested take on this would be as follows:
- Alter the Planar skills Shortwave, Farwave, Aetherwave and Astrowave so that they allow channel communication while not in the prime material plane.
- By default, messages sent from Prime (regardless of sender skill) will be received by all players on other planes.
- By default, messages sent by off-plane players (with sufficient planar skill) will be received by all players on Prime.
- This way, newer players shouldn't be cut off from friendly allies unless they choose to go off-plane.
- Alter friendly who lists (eg. GWHO, CWHO, OWHO, CGWHO) and channels so that you can see and communicate with all players on any plane, or in manses, regardless of skill.
- You would be able to see players flying in the aetherways or on aetherbubbles in the friendly *WHO list, but not communicate with them.
- (Optional) Further alter the Planar skills Shortwave, Farwave, Aetherwave and Astrowave so that they also grant the ability to see player names and titles at the relevant planar distance on the main WHO and QWHO lists.
- Add a column to WHO, and multilines to QWHO, which indicate on which plane the person can been sensed.
- Thirdeye location sense would continue to function with its current limitations, only showing location of targets in your current plane, or adjacent planes with the Planar Cosmicsense ability.
- (Optional) Add a low-level ability in Aethercraft that grants the ability to see player names and titles on WHO and QWHO for those in other manses or flying in aetherspace. Room locations of these players can never be seen on these lists.
- Shrouded defence: Hides location from WHO list, but not friendly *WHO lists. (Does this happen now? If not, please ignore!)
- Gem of cloaking: Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list unless you are allies, adds counter to a new bucket for 'Cloaked presences'. Does not affect friendly *WHO lists at all.
- Standing in manse/ship room (no privacy effect): Removes location only from main WHO/QWHO list. Does not affect friendly *WHO lists at all.
- Standing in manse/ship room (with privacy effect): Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list, adds counter to a new bucket for 'Cloaked presences'. Also removes name from any friendly *WHO list to 'flagged for privacy' list.
- Standing in same-continent but not manse/ship room (with privacy effect): Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list, adds counter to a new bucket for 'Cloaked presences'. Does not hide name on any friendly *WHO list - however maybe it should? I'm not really sure what privacy rooms are used for in non-manse areas.
- Standing in off-continent room/aetherbubble: Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list, adds to a new bucket for 'beyond your senses'. Can still be seen on friendly *WHO lists, but with all channels flagged as off.
- Not sure if there are others to take into account - let me know if I've missed something!
So some examples of what this might look like below.
<div> <b>WHO</b> You sense 2 Lusternians on this plane (Prime) and 20 cloaked presences: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elryn - Elryn Greythane, Pure Chime (Atropos Way) Shroudee - The shrouded Shroudee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You sense 4 Lusternians on other planes and 10 cloaked presences: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Ethereal) Vorjel - Chaote Vorjel (amid flowering green) (Cosmic) Syrian - Syrian (Cosmic) Spindle - Mister Spindle, a Fate Guide (Aetherways) Someone - Someone With A Long Title ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (*) Currently there are 36 Lusternians within range and 10 beyond your senses. <b>QWHO</b> This plane: Elryn, Shroudee. Other planes: Vorjel, Syrian, Someone. (*) Currently, there are 5 Lusternians visible, 30 cloaked within range, and 10 beyond your senses. <b>GWHO</b> **************************[ THE SPIRITSINGERS GUILD ]************************** Guildmember Rank Plane Position GT GNT CGT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elryn 1 On On On Bob 20 (Cosmic) Guildmaster On On On Spindle 12 (Aetherways) Security Off Off On Pinky 9 (Undervault) On On On Vorjel 1 (Aetherspace) Off* Off* Off* ******************************************************************************* (*) Currently, there is 1 member on this Plane and 4 on other Planes. (*) There are also 2 online members hidden from this list for privacy. </div>I'm open to other suggestions - the WHO list format in particular might be a bit unwieldy, so I'd welcome better ideas!
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(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
On friendly lists though, if location/name information cross-plane is being sent via GMCP that's even better - if it's already being sent to clients, I'd argue it should be readily displayed to players without them having to implement a custom parser.
If Factions are an attempt to make the world seem less empty, by making guilds feel less empty, I think we should make the world seem less empty on a noticeable level.
For example:
I started the game with a few other people, some mutual friends who wanted to try a new role-playing game together and heard good things about this one. Of the three of us, I'm the only one that will still play. For one of us, it was simply the plane system and who list that was his reason for quitting.
You've intentionally gated basic information about who's playing your game behind a $170.00 investment. I only see 6 of the 26 people online using the information available to me for free, or 23% of the players including myself. I might instead, for up to $105.00 depending on plane, find out that someone is online by sending them a tell. I could, in that instance, set up an alias to spam unsolicited tells toward everyone that I'm curious about and use that information to know who I can interact with. Both of these options are absurd.
The plane system here is the most frustratingly pigheadedly stupid design decision I can think of in basically my entire MUD career.
You take your newest players, the one you want to get invested in your game, and you completely isolate them from the vast majority of the people in their organizations. You don't let them see the people who are offplane. You don't let them communicate with the people offplane. You might have a dozen people on in your org but that doesn't matter in the slightest because you CAN'T SEE THEM.
How can I tell if my friends are online when I'm leveling? My who list doesn't help, all I see is this:
(p) 4012h, 7390m, 4860e, 10p, 20160en, 20160w Bek-qw
I could try sending them blind tells, but the ability to do that is gated behind a ~$100 investment into a tertiary skillset.
It is like you are TRYING to isolate me from everybody I could talk to and make my playing experience suck. If that's the case, I have good news for you.
IT IS WORKING.
But I most certainly don't think the planar system here sucks. The sense of being isolated when you're exploring a non-prime plane is something I like. It actually makes you feel like you're floating out there in space. You want to radio back home? Yeah, you need some special equipment. And you do feel some measure of jealousy for those who can do that effortlessly. A person jumping you while you're offplane and without the means to communicate? That's an adrenaline rush you can't get from elsewhere. Your friends are happily whittling away in a safe spot at home, and you're fighting for your life in a realm that is really out of reach. It doubly creates that sense of home in your prime org territory that makes it feel safe and welcoming.
As it is, if you're a newbie and you need help, CGT and the newbie channel ignores planar restrictions. The only thing left to do is to make sure newbies who need help can see the people who can help them - via cwho and gwho.
On general who lists? If you just want to do OOC chatter while taking the bluntness off grinding? Yeah, no. I don't really think we need to make the planar system cater to that.
Especially not when I think it does have a very tangible effect on how much you are inclined to interact with fellow players - within your org or not. There are so many times that talking on city/clan channels is like speaking into the wind - you never know who is actually listening, or which people are going to hear you. And I do think that hiding players of other nations in particular detracts from the vibrancy of a fleshed out world, because it seems like there's only ever a handful of people online other than those who made similar choices to yourself.
Having said all that, I'd suggest preserving some of the planar communication troubles, but limiting it to *when you actually go off-plane*, as posited above. That way the main world itself should always feel populated and alive, but using the planar system does involve some element of isolation (well, at least until you can afford otherwise).
We already do have at least a few stuff to mitigate it, but it's not helpful if people don't learn it exists.
I don't think the issue is about a lack of understanding, it's about the perception given by removing 80% of the playerbase from visible lists. That, and not being able to tell *who* you are interacting with - asking a question on newbie is fine, but at some point you want to get to know and engage with other characters, not just throw out questions into the aether.
I also don't mean to imply the current situation is abysmal, though I'm very sorry to hear we lost you, Karsav! I just think it's an easy win - for very little effort (I hope!) and inconvenience to established players, we dramatically improve the visible population of the game and its organisations. Seems beneficial to me!
Ways to communicate do exist, even when some of us are out in aspace without omniscience (gated beyond even a paywall, that).
I'm also not at all saying your idea is a bad one; only adding another little idea that might help, for things that already exist.
Sure, the combat artifacts are cheaper, but they charge you $170 to use qwho and another $100 to send tells to people. Oh, and you need to learn that tertiary skill to get to Lusternian Azdun. What's the skill do? Well, nothing, really. It's just a way of charging you credits to experience basic gameplay.
What if you don't want to pay it? Well, you can sit on prime and not talk to anybody, but that's okay because you won't know that anybody is around to talk to.
For the sake of game balance, planar travel to even Elemental and Cosmic is unlocked easily and readily, without much of the "cash grabbing" that is being accused of here. Which brings me to my next point. I've largely refrained from participating in the fuss about the cash-grabbiness of Lusternia. When I first started playing, it certainly felt like a lot of extra skills to learn compared to the IRE I came from. But it's been said by a few individuals, that Lusternia has a host of freebie ways to get access to credits or cash items, that the other games may not have in as much abundance. Naturally, the other games also have other avenues of earning credits Lusternia does not have. A direct comparison is hardly fair to either Lusternia or the other IRE game being compared, and usually highly inaccurate.
And almost entirely irrelevant to this thread.
But just to entertain the thought a little. Specifically about Lusternia planar mechanics as being "just a way of charging you credits to experience basic gameplay." Getting into any bashing area on Prime, regardless of continent, requires EtherGate in Planar. Anywhere on Prime can be reached as long as there is a planar gate from a location in Ethereal that leads to that area on Prime, and you only need EtherGate to access to-and-fro. Where is EtherGate in Planar? Two skills before LiquidRift. Which is THIRTY-FIVE lessons (which also gets you access to Elemental, too).
Of which, twenty-five lessons will be refunded if you do the "Some Personal Space" newbie achievement.
In other words, 10 lesson investment to unlock access to every single location on Prime and Ethereal - subject to other players helping to set up the planar gates, of course. I do not know of any bashing areas in Elemental or Cosmic. Maybe the Shattered Earth plane thingy? Never visited there, never bashed there on my way to Demigod, nope. Astral is an end-game, or at least, Level 80+ area for groups bashing. Most of the lucrative bashing areas, from 80 to 100 and beyond, are on Prime (and to a lesser extent, Ethereal, specifically the catacombs). A few lucrative exceptions exist, like Muud and Astral, but between the Undervault, Lirang'sha, the Iceplains, there is no lack of anything to bash from 80 and up. Everything a lower-than-level-80 character can bash is on Prime, usually in the main continent.
Charging you credits to experience basic gameplay? Really? As a newbie? Or even as an IRE migrant?
Yeah, just to reiterate - I fully support expanding cwho/gwho for making newbies feel more aware of their city members and that there are people around to ask for help, or even to approach for RP/introductions. I also can understand concerns that the idea of higher planes being difficult to access and being isolated when you access it, can be off-putting to some people. I will advocate that we keep the status quo for the higher planes at least - changing Prime WHO is an argument that has some valid points - but I'm not saying it would be a problem to change higher planes being isolated - just that I would feel it would lessen some of Lusternia's draws.
But to pull this thread, and planar mechanics, into part of the accusation of the cash-grabby thing? I'm not even going to talk about that comment of $170 for qw, or $100 for sending tells. Seriously. At best, this is a skewed perspective from genuinely mistaken information. At worst, this is blind entitlement and patent falsehood.
Also, I'd just like to point something out -- everyone defending the status quo has been playing Lusternia for months, maybe even years. Sure, from that perspective, one can argue that everything's fine and dandy. But to a relative Lusternian newbie dipping a toe or two into this particular IRE? It may not be as rosy as you adamantly think it is.
My point, I suppose, is whether Lusternia would like to cater mainly to its veteran players who have gotten used to the way things are, or open its doors to embrace a larger, more diverse, base. Both have merits and both have drawbacks.
Accountability is necessary.
With all the overtures that the admin make towards wanting to retain novices, the fact that new players still get that cash-grab feeling is a problem. I don't think the actual situation is problematic, it's just that novices don't recognize the difference between Lusternia and other IREs, and they think that Lusternia is trying to dig into their pocketbook from the outset.
Lusternia gives away tons of free credits for all sorts of achievements, leveling up, competitions, promotions, etc. They've moved important skills low down in the common skillsets so they are easy to obtain. They've made it so novices can communicate across all planes. Etc. Can more be done? Of course, but the admin have gone specifically out of their way to make it so that new players can play the fully featured game without having to invest anything more than a bit of time.
What they've failed to do however, is change this cash-grab perception. Maybe a little help file/guide is in order that outlines a plan of attack for novices to work towards being a full standing shard.
It would look more or less like:
Recommended ways for novice to generate lessons/credits:
<list>
Recommended skills to obtain with credits:
<list>
Then people could quibble over how long it takes to do said tasks before they have all of the basic skills they would like.
This thread is about planar mechanics, and for all the problems with Lusternia's economy and the cash-grab nature of its artifacts and QoL stuff, planar mechanics are quite possibly one of the least important, non-issues in terms of cashgrabbing for gameplay. Planar mechanics here are certainly not perfect - but I'm arguing for the status quo on the basis of a roleplay, ambient argument, not because "everything's fine and dandy".
There certainly is a valid argument that not being able to hear people while you're off-plane makes you feel isolated and makes your experience a lot quieter (while you're off-plane). I'm not arguing against that. This isn't an argument to "cater mainly to... veteran players". I have access to every form of communication except omniscience - making this change affects me absolutely zilch.
I am, however, disputing the mistaken assertion that planar mechanics, of all the things in Lusternia, are a cash-grab. You can, as a true newbie, get access to literally all of Prime and Ethereal and Elemental with 10 lessons. Sure, that's 10 more than the 0 lessons of other IREs. Wow, mucho cash grab there. (As a digression, I'm pretty sure you can get around sewers requirement with planar rifts too. And that's something the other IREs certainly don't have. Shall we raise the pitchforks against Achaea/Aetolia/Imperian for that, huh?) I am putting forth the assertion that the inconvenience (for the higher planes) is part of the charm - though I've also acknowledged that my version of charming might not be the same as the other person.
I don't see why this is being characterised as a "oldie-versus-newbie" thing. This has nothing to do with protecting privilege, or being unsympathetic to newbies. I'm not sure which part of my arguments even imply that. Or even a comparison-between-IREs thing. Literally no other IRE has 5 planes of existence that players can zip back and forth on. That very mechanic is what sets Lusternia apart. It's not like Lusternia's Prime plane is significantly smaller than the other IREs' Prime planes either - though I haven't counted. Someone probably could set the record straight on that. I also won't go as far as to say that something like putting out names on cwho/gwho will dilute our uniqueness, no, but I do feel like keeping some aspects of that differentiation and inconvenience contributes to keeping our unique mechanic an interesting experience beyond "oh, it's just another area that you enter a special command to access instead of walking to".
And I feel like that is also an important consideration when looking at making changes to the way planar mechanics work.
One of the big things that discourage me going to aether bubbles is that I can't come and help people who need it or answer new people's questions on CT.
3) This also comes up again and again, and really, 10 lessons is an "incredibly irritating extra expense"? Really?
4) The Undervault is a different continent. This is a mechanic that exists in other IREs, and I'm pretty sure Aetolia also does not allow communication or qw across continents, at the very least. Not sure about the other IREs. But anyway, if the only reason why we're discussing changing planar communication mechanics is so that people can chat while grinding... If you want to grind with a social aspect, invite people, group up, grind together. Sure, the newbie can't see when someone logs in - so yeah, make the off-plane people show up on cwho/gwho as well, and newbies can then invite them to join if it happens that they noticed a friend appear while bashing.
5) New players who don't know anybody, and would like to get to know more would, you know, stay in the Prime org areas, getting to know more people. They could probably bash AND chat with people anyway, because most of the newbie bashing areas are not even off-continent, and when they DO go to an off-continent area, hey, there's a real difference here. The quality of silence is different, because people actually can't hear! I think that experience, where going somewhere different actually means something, is valuable.
Look, I'll repeat one last time. I'm not opposed to making things a better experience for new players. By all means, show new players who are off-plane on their cwho/gwho, so they can get the help the need, when they need it. But if all we're doing here is trying to make things eas(ier) for people who want to chat while grinding, then I'm questioning the need to give up an aspect which I feel makes the planar system more interesting in return.
That anyone can't spot you from the comfort of their nexus is a positive.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
- I don't think it's fair to say that Lusternia is a 'cash grab', certainly not over something as little as this. Yes, the sense of isolation is mitigated by a combination of skills and purchasable artifacts, but that's not inherently a problem - paying for a little bit of convenience is usually a great idea!
- This isn't an oldie vs newbie argument. Personally, I am in a pretty fortunate position after the years here (despite many long periods of inactivity) where I can choose both to control my visibility to others and overcome most of these restrictions if I choose for my own character anyway. I probably don't count as a veteran anymore (and to be honest, probably never did!), but I'm hardly a newbie either :P
- The planar system is freaking brilliant (as is aetherspace). It is a unique selling point for the game, provides oodles of roleplay value and interesting mechanics in theory, and I definitely don't want to 'flatten' it out (actually, I hope we find more planar areas!). You'll see in the original suggestion I wanted to preserve the limits when someone goes off-plane (with the potential to reduce this via planar skill, as currently), but change the way it works for those who remain on prime. I hope this lends to the feeling of adventure when you venture off-plane, but doesn't mean you disappear for everyone else with a more stable vantage point.
If this isn't the right way to improve that sense of a vibrant, full and diversely populated game - then I'm more than open to alternative suggestions. I think that the current player lists actually do Lusternia a disservice, because it looks far less thriving than it really is (maybe only in the oceanic hours when I play, to be fair).We're looking at consolidating guilds to assist with that sense of emptiness in organisations, this is just a suggestion along the same vein, but on a broader world scale.
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
You then at least know that they are there and can be reached via message if nothing else.