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Monk'd
Cyndarin
used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
in Combat Logs
http://pastehtml.com/view/coso7hyg6.html
Things to notice:
Literally the same kata over and over and over until she got a lucky kick through stance, and then it was game over.
Would have died sooner but I got lucky with drink
I was completely fine 4 seconds before I was dead.
No prep work. Build momentum --> mash kill button
This **** is really stupid.
Seriously, this has been an issue for how long? Kill conditions that are entirely based on 1) how faster the killer is hitting you, 2) have literally a 4 second, no power set up and/or 3) involve mashing 1 button over and over until it works because stance isn't fool proof are really really poorly designed.
Monks are poorly designed? What a shocker.
2
(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
The simple explanation is theres a flaw in the setup for the insta. Chestpain does not lower mo (its a prep so no cost) and shatter ankle is -1, so you drop to mo4, then double boost to insta. You can stop it but you have to react immediately. I thought this was brought up on envoy news boards.
The options at the moment:
- Allheale
- Beast cure body
- Beast reflect me
- Power cure
EDIT: AH HA!
Envoy news posts 707 (problem) & 709 (for solutions)
I was asked about this and offered either:
- Remove double boost completely (who double boosts?)
or if double boost is needed
- Give the insta itself a power cost to prevent using it with double boost.
This could be hotfixed imho.
But just to clear up some misunderstandings, there IS a precondition required for this particular Tahtetso kill, which is medium wounds on head/chest. It's not 100% guarantee'd, but it becomes possible the moment medium wounds are achieved. Medium wounds are at 400, and wounds are applied before anything else (damage, wound-based affs) for both warrior and monk attacks. A single kick also gives around 160-180 wounds. This means this precondition can be satisfied at the same time as the third kick is done, assuming there are no other hand actions or healing potion applications to the bodypart. Achieving this condition also becomes easier and easier if your target is continually applying healing potions to other body parts even as you near medium wounds on their head/chest. (Ie. Why I mentioned that changing cure priorities might have helped.)
So, technically, this particular case here is a kill condition where the user has to try and build wounds on the target in order to achieve the required affs for the setup, as though they were a pseudo-warrior. Of course, as a monk, the Tahtetso have quite a few advantages over warriors, but here isn't the place to be going into a warrior vs monk debate.
HOWEVER, eventually, even after prioritizing head/chest wounds, a good Tahtetso would still have eventually been able to build the required wounds for the sprawl to work. In fact, it would only be reasonable for it to be possible to build wounds as a Tahtetso. (Ie. Why I said that changing cure priorities will not resolve Celina's complaint)
What is potentially problematic is that the "setup" form for this particular Tahtetso kill can potentially give all the affs required for the insta in a single balance, assuming medium wounds is achieved. And if it does successfully do this, because monk balance is 3s, and regen application takes 4s, once the setup form is done, the insta is 100% guarantee'd, barring the following conditions:
1) Malarious' list of allheale, beast cures/reflect and green/gedulah
2) Passive shielding
3) Passive curing (Night drink foiled it once, in the posted log)
4) Tahtetso has less than 10p available
For people without options 2 and 3, which is quite a lot of people, green/gedulah is the only really reliable way to save yourself. Beast balance and allheale balance can be unavailable, depending on usage, and either beast heal or allheale has a small chance of not curing the right affliction. Because green cures 2 afflictions, that chance is a lot lower, but if the setup form manages to successfully poison with 2 different poisons, it's also possible for a green to fail to save the victim.
The setup form costs -1mo. The insta form costs 10p and -1mo.
I personally believe that the costs for this kill strategy is a little too low. The setup form is very specific - it only leads to the instakill, and doesn't have much synergy in groups. It doesn't stop curing, and doesn't do a lot of damage. -1mo might seem reasonable for what it does. But 10p and -2mo for a pretty much 100% reliable insta spread over 2 forms would seem to be much less reasonable. Compare this with the Nekotai. The "setup" form for the Nekotai insta is the greenlock, (also pretty much requires green in order to escape it) and at its cheapest, costs 5p and -3mo. The insta costs a further 5p and -1mo, and requires the Nekotai to rebuild the 3mo used in the setup form. Meaning, to successfully perform the Nekotai insta in a similar situation to what the Tahtetso did in the log, a Nekotai has to spend 10p and -4mo spread over a minimum of 4 forms. Furthermore, after performing the Nekotai insta there is an 8s window before the insta actually kills the target, during which time (between the 4 forms and the 8s window), the greenlock has to be maintained.
Now, I'm not saying that the Nekotai and the Tahtetso insta are the same and should be compared vis-a-vis each other. The Nekotai greenlock does much more damage and also stops all curing while it is maintained. It also has a great application in group fights. The Tahtetso setup form in the log does not have the kind of damage or cure-hindering of a Nekotai greenlock, nor does it help non-Tahtetso allies in a group fight the same way greenlocks can help non-Nekotai allies. On the other hand, in a 1v1 setting as the log illustrates, the Tahtetso setup leads to a far more reliable, immediate insta, and at a far less cost. A comparison between the two is useful in illustrating how both forms can force a green/gedulah at the risk of death, but with very different costs.
I've spoken to Xena at length on this, and she suggested (as Malarious mentioned) removing the ability to double-boost. Double-boosting isn't useful for Nekotai at all, because the only ability that needs 6mo for us is the insta, which, as you can imagine from my description above, isn't really worth double-boosting for most of the time. Another of her suggestions was to add a 1p power-cost to the Tahtetso shattered-ankle (part of the setup form) so that it cannot be spammed in the same way Celina mentioned (they'd run out of power if they tried to loop it and hope to get lucky with the affs) and also prevent a double-boost immediately following the setup form.
I'm not sure if these are the best solutions, I'm still wrapping my mind around how Tahtetso work now that I've been updated on some misunderstandings of my own (I used to think shattered-ankles did not stop standing, which was why I never saw this potential problem in the first place) and I'll need some time to think about it. It'd be nice to hear from other Tahtetso and/or envoys.
Also, it's possible for a Tahtetso to get to the amount of wounds he needs on the bodypart by the second kick, if he uses the pound and soft modifiers to boost the wounds he does. (Harmony and psymet has abilities that further boost wounds, too, if I'm not wrong.) It's probably not possible to hit medium with a single kick, so it's probably not possible for a Tahtetso to successfully do his setup form if your head/chest wounds is at zero. It's definitely not difficult to get to medium wounds, though, unless the Tahtetso is super unlucky with hitting stances/parry.
Also, just to clarify this bit of what I said for those who aren't that clear on Tahtetso's insta:
The mechanical requirements for the Tahtetso insta is just sprawl and chestpain. This setup form gives both of those as well as shattered-ankle, a regen aff that prevents standing. This makes both mechanical requirements for the Tahtetso insta to be only curable via regeneration, which takes 4s to take effect. Shattered-ankle isn't an actual mechanical requirement, but generally speaking, a regen-cured aff that prevents standing is "required" in order to prevent the target from standing up before the Tahtetso regains balance. Normally, the idea is that the Tahtetso has to stack such regen affs, and then rebuild his momentum faster than the regeneration affs can be cured. In this case, it's like a short-cut, where no stacking is needed, just 1 regen aff is needed to buy the time for a single balance recovery so that the Tahtetso can follow up with the insta immediately through double-boosting.
Well, since this has been brought up on the envoy board and the forums and given way more time than needed I think it would be fair for another guild to make a report addressing this now.
If you can figure out the best solution that should be the reports ONLY solution.
Adding a power cost on the insta itself to block double-boosting feels a little weird to me. For all intent and purposes, monk instas (save the Shofangi) all have a "power cost" as is- since they cannot be used outside of 6mo, they require at least 5p to activate. But it would serve the purpose of blocking this specific strategy well enough. On the other hand, however, this "setup" form uses 400ka weight to give the chestpain affliction. Once the Tahtetso insta is rendered impossible to be performed via a double-boost, the setup-form used for this strategy can re-allocate that 400ka weight into other afflictions.
Think about it, as it is, this form costs -1mo, and gives a sprawl + a regen-cured aff that prevents standing + 400 unallocated ka weight. Just the first 2 affs alone should ring alarm bells when you look at the cost. The sprawl is, as I have clearly outlined in my earlier posts, not entirely reliable, and dependant on wounds, but still, should this be a reason for such a low cost for what is essentially a regen-cured prone? Every single Nekotai regen-cured prone costs -2mo, with the exception of Oriama, which costs -1mo but is a grapple-ender (ie requires 2 forms and the target not writhing).
The fact that this can be done and still have 400 unallocated ka-weight means 2 things, firstly that it can be done during 4mo, and secondly that if done during 5mo, it can add other inhibiting afflictions in the Tahtetso repertoire. And all at the cost of -1mo.
Fast, reliable regen affs are the anchoring advantage of monk abilities, but they should be balanced with appropriate costs. The Tahtetso are already rather decent with this aspect, with several afflictions that are wound based (the sprawl I mentioned, their kneecapping move etc). The Shofangi have access to kneecaps and elbows that have effectively no cost when used at 5mo, and allows them to effectively bypass both stance and parry (because these are regen-cured affs) from as early as 3mo, assuming their hits land. That's an example of what we don't want. And if we're serious about fixing some monk issues, adding a power cost to the Tahtetso shattered ankle can be a good way of balancing the effect of their ability to keep someone prone until they regain balance for their next form.
Of course, it will certainly have repercussions beyond just this strategy, but I believe it will be good for the overall balance of the guild, if not for the entire archetype.
And if we're serious about fixing some monk issues, adding a power cost to the Tahtetso shattered ankle can be a good way of balancing the effect of their ability to keep someone prone until they regain balance for their next form.
Are there more issues presently than just their insta?
In effect, however, most of the regeneration-cured afflictions monks do give are balanced with appropriate momentum costs, which deny them the ability to afflict with them over and over the same way warriors may be able to if they build wounds to a certain level. That mechanic also exacerbates the burst-based style of monk combat, where performing multiple regen-cured afflictions will greatly reduce the affliction capacity of the monk in the immediate aftermath (dropping their momentum multiple levels). Generally speaking, I personally feel this mechanic is sufficient to make up for the reliability of monk affliction ability (most monks give their affs without needing to struggle with the RNG from wounds).
There are a few remaining regen-cured afflictions that some monks have access to that do not seem to have an appropriate cost. I'll avoid talking about the Shofangi here, because my bias will certainly become obvious, but in this particular case, shattered-ankle serves as a regen-cured prone for the Tahtetso. If the cost is only -1mo, it would seem to be a little too low. While shattered-ankle does not sprawl on its own, the Tahtetso starkick is also really low in ka cost and has a chance to prone once medium wounds are unlocked, making shattered ankle far more dangerous than if it was to be given in isolation. Whether this combination should incur a higher momentum or power cost is up to debate, of course. But this debate itself highlights that there's a potential "issue" that we might want to consider as well.
A hotfix of just disabling double-boost or adding a power cost to the Tahtetso insta will work for the purposes of addressing Celina's (probably valid) complaint about this specific strategy, of course. I was simply pointing out another potential problem that I noticed.
Of course it will have farther reaching implications, especially for the people who don't think they have to try to do well at combat. I would only agree to this change as a 1 power cost though as it solves a lot of problems but doesn't drain so much power you never have power for the boost or tahtai (bypass rebounding).
As for the rest, Shuyin was so kind as to post on the envoy news board for me back in October or November. No idea what the post number is, but it addresses this setup.
As for this:
Required for the kill: Momentum 5 when you do the setup. Wounds on chest or head for the kick to even have a chance to prone. You were not fine 4 seconds before, you had a monk with momentum 5 against you and had wounds on body parts that are critical for the setup. Now you can complain about momentum being uncurable, but I think that will be a hard position to maintain as someone who uses the shadowtwist mechanism.
How many hits does it take you to build the required medium wounds?
Please do not use false equivilencies to justify broken mechanics. Shadowtwist and momentum are not comparable, nor are wiccans and monks. You are wasting everyone's time with that line of pseudo logic.
Just to clarify, being in a room with a monk at five momentum does not default to the target not being "fine." I was, in fact, quite alright. What you have inadvertantly done is highlight the main issue with monks, that momentum is a direct result of what the monk does rather than what status the target is in. What momentum does is remove adaptive and strategic thinking from combat. They just have to race to the finish line, and once there it's on the target to run the hell away or game over. It's the only archetype that goes from point a to b with little regard for everything in between beyond survival.
As a note: having medium wounds is barely a requirement. That's about as low of a bar as you can set. Considering monks hit faster than health applications, all you'd need to do is hit once or the wounds then again before application balance was regained. It's not rocket science.