There's some notes in the Aftermath section of the histories.
The trees were grown by the first wiccans and druids, following that the pool of stars was created, then vaguely over 500 years the flame, the matrix, and then the stone of truth were created.
The commune nexii are likely naturally reflected on ethereal and tied to that. The page makes it sound like city nexii are created through planar magics which is where their link would come from.
It's possible we might find out one day how they were built, but probably only if it were necessary.
I think the difference is that the edifices were like massive generators, possibly not extraplanar and built to raise a vernal and then burn out. While the nexii are designed to gather power more slowly, to connect to other places, and to last.
Why they were on astral already feels like a story in itself, though my speculation would be that their massive extraplanar presence might be a key part of it. Could also be Kethuru trying to make it easier to breach his prison.
The power stuff, there's less knowledge one. I think essence and power are just different states, like an ice cube and water, the nexii just converting them from one state to another.
With different types being compatible with different nexii because of their influences, and non-compatible essence being bad.
As for Nexi that are still around, I believe New Celest's arena is the area containing the Pearl of Amberle, which raised Dionymus, and Castle Djarrakjahsaksgjhs and the Aslaran camp on the moors are fighting over ownership of the Claws of Shanth, which get uncovered in the Castle quest outside of the Krokani tower. I don't THINK the Throne empowered Urlachmar, but it's there, as is the Meliashmora of Imperial Secrets for Juliara or Vestera (it's been a while, She may not have even been one of the Nine). And technically the old Pool on Spectre Isle is still there and raised a Vernal Goddess, it just didn't end well.
This is some interesting stuff! Do you have sources (quests, books, etc.) for it? I have questions too!
"I believe New Celest's arena is the area containing the Pearl of Amberle, which raised Dionymus"
What do you mean by this? Was New Celest built on top of an old city that had a Nexus?
"...are fighting over ownership of the Claws of Shanth..."
Really? Is this made apparent at some point in the quest that I didn't notice? Also, is that quest an original? I don't see any mention of it in my Events export.
"Meliashmora of Imperial Secrets for Juliara or Vestera"
I assume that one hears about that while doing those quests? They're on my hit list.
Also, I can't speak to when they were "built," but we know that Gaudi "ascended" their nexus in year 45 of the Imperial Empire, and Hallifax in year 60. Check out the quest in Shallach to learn more about the circumstances and reaction of the Empire.
As for Nexi that are still around, I believe New Celest's arena is the area containing the Pearl of Amberle, which raised Dionymus, and Castle Djarrakjahsaksgjhs and the Aslaran camp on the moors are fighting over ownership of the Claws of Shanth, which get uncovered in the Castle quest outside of the Krokani tower. I don't THINK the Throne empowered Urlachmar, but it's there, as is the Meliashmora of Imperial Secrets for Juliara or Vestera (it's been a while, She may not have even been one of the Nine). And technically the old Pool on Spectre Isle is still there and raised a Vernal Goddess, it just didn't end well.
@Luce: Dionamus was from Alabellalum and raised from its construct, the White Shell. I don't know if Alabellalum is supposed to be the ancestral Celest or something, so very, very interested if you have a source saying this about the Pearl of the Amberle. It might make sense since I think Dionamus was the first to discover Celestia, but I can't remember where I learned that.
Meliashmora as far as I know didn't exist in the age of the Vernal Wars so couldn't have risen a Vernal. It was built during the Holy Celestine Empire. Juliana was raised from the whatever Needle of some icy ice in Climanti and Vestera was raised from the Bubbling Cauldron of Ghalphalshi Swamp. Not sure if that is currently in-game.
Castle Djarrakjahsaksgjhs and the Aslaran camp on the moors are fighting over ownership of the Claws of Shanth, which get uncovered in the Castle quest outside of the Krokani tower.
@Mrak Still need to do this quest (so I might contact you about starting it if that's cool), but @Luce might be confusing two different things? The Claws of Liberty raised Shanth to Vernalhood and that seems to be written as fairly clearly as an aslaran construct and there wasn't a conflict over it. The Claw of Shanth is mentioned in the Holy Celestine Empire histories as an artifact that belonged to the aslarans but was lent to Djarrakh to hold back the Taint. afaik it wasn't an edifice of power but could be wrong, like I said, haven't done the quest.
The Gray Moors quest line is not an original, I believe it came around sometime after I started. There is an arty in the castle that basically makes a shield, and you can quest to activate / deactivate it. One of the reasons you do not have much info about it is that it feels very incomplete. It seems like it is supposed to be stage 1 for a quest chain with more delving into the Castle and its mysteries, but that never actually came to fruition (and all we have is the original quest itself and a couple of rooms in the castle).
It might make sense since I think Dionamus was the first to discover Celestia, but I can't remember where I learned that.
Help! I'm trapped in a quote box! Anyway, this is in the histories, in the Dionamus section. But Luce is also correct that the Aquamancers re-discovered Celestia, and some of them became Celestines.
I love the lore in this game. Raves to @Estarra and the various divine who have made it come to life.
Yeah, I'm probably confusing a couple different things, this is all off-the-cuff information I'm trying to remember.
If you do the meliashmora quest and then stick around you learn about the Vernal whose power sustains it. It's not an edifice, just an artifact.
I KNOW the Pearl was an edifice, I just can't remember who went up through it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out there was an edifice in or around Shallach that was enbeefening the Ur'dead there.
I also always read the Moors situation as 1) Shanth is raised through the Claws of Liberty, 2) his camp is destroyed as usually happens, 3) the Aslaran and Krokani in the Moors dismantle the edifice and rename it to the Claw(s) of Shanth, and hide it away in case it's needed again, 4) everyone not from the Moors forgets it's there because holy fuck the world is ending, 5) the captain of the Krokani legions smells a rotting fish during the Fall and goes home to turn on the Claws, 6) between the Moors being shielded, the mountains, and Halifax meddling with the wind the Taint is trapped in Mag, the area that is now the blasted lands, and Gloriana forests. Sucks to be them, but the rest of the Basin is safe. 7) You're welcome.
Is the Hand an edifice or just an artifact with a boatload of power?
Pearl of the Amberle I think makes more sense for Glomborolum's city moniker, rather than its actual nexus of power, which was some black coral spire. So like, "Hallifax, the Beacon of Harmony," you'd have "Glomborolum, the Pearl of the Amberle."
Illith also destroyed Glomborolum, so would be very surprised if New Celest is built on it, as don't think Inner Sea = Amberle Sea.
Thoroughly recommend the Icewynd/Climanti quests for Vernal lore. And the Emerald Enclave is nifty too. There's also some Shanth lore available in Grey Moors that isn't part of the krokani/aslaran Djarrakh quest.
Ushaara's take on "Pearl of the Amberle" is the same as mine.
Most of the Vernal artifacts that have the name of one of the Vernal Gods on them are artifacts of power that they created in their war against the Soulless. I think the Hand of Tzaraziko is literally her hand, still fused with an eye of Illith.
As far as I know, all edifices of power have been destroyed. At least there are no known surviving edifices. Most of the cities known to raise Vernal Gods were also destroyed. The notable exception is the Piercing Needle of Transcendental Ice in Climanti that raised Juliana, even though you could argue that even that has been destroyed.
Yeah, I'm probably confusing a couple different things, this is all off-the-cuff information I'm trying to remember.
If you do the meliashmora quest and then stick around you learn about the Vernal whose power sustains it. It's not an edifice, just an artifact.
I KNOW the Pearl was an edifice, I just can't remember who went up through it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out there was an edifice in or around Shallach that was enbeefening the Ur'dead there.
I also always read the Moors situation as 1) Shanth is raised through the Claws of Liberty, 2) his camp is destroyed as usually happens, 3) the Aslaran and Krokani in the Moors dismantle the edifice and rename it to the Claw(s) of Shanth, and hide it away in case it's needed again, 4) everyone not from the Moors forgets it's there because holy fuck the world is ending, 5) the captain of the Krokani legions smells a rotting fish during the Fall and goes home to turn on the Claws, 6) between the Moors being shielded, the mountains, and Halifax meddling with the wind the Taint is trapped in Mag, the area that is now the blasted lands, and Gloriana forests. Sucks to be them, but the rest of the Basin is safe. 7) You're welcome.
Is the Hand an edifice or just an artifact with a boatload of power?
The Hand of Tzariko? (Super mispelled) it's an artifact, her hand with an eye of Illith I think. Been awhile.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
The Meliashmora does not contain an edifice. It was set up by the Holy Celestine Empire to house artifacts that they found. Some of these artifacts were of Vernal origin. One of those was the Marvelous Motley Cap, made by Menestre, who was raised in the Czigany Coast. The Cap is what has kept the Meliashmora under a spell.
I cannot find it at the moment, but I could have sworn that there was some event post describing the emergence of Nexus Worlds.
Off-hand, they are manifestations of their respective nexus that were produced when the nexii housed a glut of power that was actually threatening the stability of the nexii (or something like that?). Outside causing the problems of nexus stability again, I don't think much would happen if the nexus worlds are nuked.
Halifax and Gaudi wouldn't be able to do it power quests, and Halifax couldn't do our epic (not sure about Gaudi). And Halifax's cosmic empowering thing requires the Grid.
I've heard it said that the onion model is woefully inaccurate for representing the planes, is there a better model? I know it goes Spirit+Nexus>Prime>Ethereal>Elemental>Cosmic+Domoth>Astral, but treating those as layers on top of/surrounding one another is incorrect?
Hnnngh, does anyone remember what Edifice Il'garala & Il'vania rose through offhand?
Il'garala was raised through the Weeping Tree of Molneredir. I don't have a record of what the Il'vania's edifice was called but she was raised in the city of Culneredir
Hnnngh, does anyone remember what Edifice Il'garala & Il'vania rose through offhand?
I kept missing the beginning of the re-enactment that told the full story so I'm missing stuff on Il'vania (was in that haunted house event), but Il'garala was from Molneredir and was raised from its Weeping Tree. And the Mornhai quest was broken when I tried to do it last, don't know if that quest would have more info.
- Are some of the original edifices of power still used? If not, where did our nexii come from?
- Did the city/commune nexii always exist? --- If not, how are they intricately intertwined with the other planes? --- If not, how were they built? --- If not, how are they different from the vernal era's edifices of power? Can they do less than the OG versions? Why? --- Also, if they didn't just inherently exist, how did a reflection already exist on astral when Ladantine's expedition arrived? --- If they did always exist, why didn't the people during the vernal era use them?
As people mentioned before, edifices came first. They were just a totally different kind of animal, in that they stored a ton more power gathered from the Prime (and Ethereal, I suppose) planes to imbue a mortal with Godlike powers (something our nexuses (that's their plural in the histories, don't get angery) cannot do). The reason being is that I'm pretty sure it's heavily hinted that the edifices have exhausted all the power that they can find on Prime and Ethereal to accomplish creating a Vernal god.
That's where nexuses come in. They pierce planes because that's what they were designed to do -- to gather more power! You've seen how much elemental essence a person can rake in daily. Still, that wasn't enough. So expeditions were made, and nexuses began piercing the cosmic planes. Aquamancer-researchers found Celestia, became Celestines, etc. Tending to the angels and receiving boons from the Supernals was a huge motivator to just keep going. So finally, Cosmic Hope. The astral plane was speculated to be atop the cosmic. So they used the Stone of Truth and started from Shallamar to pierce up to astral...and that's when everything went to shit. But even so -- there is power on Astral. Tons of it. As you can see with the nodes. So mission basically accomplished.
That's why you see a dried up pool on Cancer, and the pan of iron filings on Capricorn. It's the tip of their nexus's reach. There's nothing more to pierce (as far as we know).
As I recall, the difference is that Edifices were insanely efficient for raising Vernals; that was their entire point. It took far less power to do so through an Edifice, but we lost the knowledge of their creation during the Vernal Wars (and never really needed it again, we have not been needing to spam-raise to fight the Soulless.
The Nexus thing has nothing to do with not raising new Divine. That is the Threshold Abyss. Without that, we would be raising Vernal Gods instead of Ascendants.
Now it is possible that Edifices sucked up some kind of natural power as part of their efficiency per the hints-- I have not seen any explicit acknowledgement of how they did what they did! But the actual God-part is affected by the Threshold Abyss created by Ayridion.
The first Aquamancers were were merian inhabitants of the Crystal Sea who, upon seeing how great Druidry was working to heal the damage to the Forests, decided to attempt the same thing in the Oceans. They weren't Lakedancers, though, they were merian scholars. After Water was reached (presumably through Faethorn?), the Aquamancers were founded and they erected the Pool of Stars as a Water-analog to the Great Trees, ie. a nexus of power which could exist on multiple planes at once, allowing a greater flow of power and people between the two. From there, they reached Celestia and founded a religious order worshiping the Supernals. Supernal-followers built the City of Celest on the biggest island in the Crystal Sea (the one the Pool of Stars was built on) and all was well. Then the Paladins were founded as an order of Light-infused super-warriors to defend the Pool of Stars against naughty pilgrims. But the Emperor also had them do a bunch of land grabs, promptly annexing the then-nations of Shallach, Balach and Djarrakh. Gaudiguch built the Eternal Flame and got conquered by the ur'Guard auxiliary from Shallach, Hallifax build the Matrix and got diplomatically vassalized, and Magnagora was founded as part of the Empire in the first place for the express purpose of building the Stone of Truth in accordance with prophesy.
The Pearl of Amberle is based off the lost city of Glomborolum, which was called the Pearl of Amberle. You can see a model of the Nexus in the arena, the giant black coral spire in the middle. The Edifice you're thinking of is the White Shell of Alabellalum, which was a giant clam with an equally giant pearl in the middle. It ascended Dionamus. It's pretty certain that Celest's Arena doesn't contain an actual city, though just a model - New Celest wasn't built on the ruins of another place as far was we know.
E: Additional lore fun facts: Shallach was Urlach's outpost in the Basin of Life, and started life as a ur'Guard military camp. Balach was a Mugwump-run scientific institute founded atop the Aegis of Vestera and the prison of the Great Muud. And Djarrakh was originally a Goloth encampment with mind-controlled Krokani and Aslaran slaves. The Rashaala and Krydin Valik Aslaran tribes are actually both descended from said slaves, while the Paaviks are descended from the Krokani masters.
The book of Elfenehoala talks about ethereal being linked to the forests. I had assumed when I read it that meant through the Moonhart and Ravenwood. It seems these trees came later though? Or were they later transformed into nexii? If they grew later, what was the original link to ethereal? Or is that Maeve?
Ellindel and Glinshari Treeheart were given seeds from the Tree of Trees as thanks for healing the Forests. These grew into the Great Trees. Or, at least, the Prime Material instance of the Great Trees, since the Elders built the Ethereal versions during the Elder Wars.
@Luce To visualize the planes, imagine a lumpy, beat up, sculpture made out of welded together cans that have all been stabbed a few times. The biggest can was actually a soup can at one point and lost its lid and bottom and has a giant dent in one side and a gaping hole where all the soup is leaking out on the other (Daath Sequence Hole). That's Prime. Welded on top of Prime's label is the bottom of a soda can. That's Ethereal. Clockwise from Prime is Elemental and Cosmic - four soda can poptops made into a chain and then welded on - Elemetal is the side of the poptop that would attach to the soda can, while Cosmic is the arching bit. Clockwise even further, until you're back by Prime, is the jangled lid of the can - Astral. There's other weird beads and stuff glued on as well - aetherbubbles - including some attached to the Spirit World (the inside of the can) called Nexus Worlds. And then there's Limbo, the giant cobweb strung together on the inside of the can itself.
E: We don't know. It's entirely possible there's an entire second layer to Faethorn full of lakes and jungles, sorta like how Continuum is arranged. Or they might be attached on the east and west, surrounding the Baths and the Vinter's Realm.
What is limbo? If it's in the middle of the world, did some of the sleeper gods end up there when they sunk into the earth? Is there a chance there are still some who slept through....everything?
Sorry for all the questions. Writing a few things IG and I've been curious about a ton of stuff. The more I learn, I swear, the more questions I have!
Comments
The trees were grown by the first wiccans and druids, following that the pool of stars was created, then vaguely over 500 years the flame, the matrix, and then the stone of truth were created.
The commune nexii are likely naturally reflected on ethereal and tied to that. The page makes it sound like city nexii are created through planar magics which is where their link would come from.
It's possible we might find out one day how they were built, but probably only if it were necessary.
I think the difference is that the edifices were like massive generators, possibly not extraplanar and built to raise a vernal and then burn out.
While the nexii are designed to gather power more slowly, to connect to other places, and to last.
Why they were on astral already feels like a story in itself, though my speculation would be that their massive extraplanar presence might be a key part of it. Could also be Kethuru trying to make it easier to breach his prison.
The power stuff, there's less knowledge one. I think essence and power are just different states, like an ice cube and water, the nexii just converting them from one state to another.
With different types being compatible with different nexii because of their influences, and non-compatible essence being bad.
"I believe New Celest's arena is the area containing the Pearl of Amberle, which raised Dionymus"
What do you mean by this? Was New Celest built on top of an old city that had a Nexus?
"...are fighting over ownership of the Claws of Shanth..."
Really? Is this made apparent at some point in the quest that I didn't notice? Also, is that quest an original? I don't see any mention of it in my Events export.
"Meliashmora of Imperial Secrets for Juliara or Vestera"
I assume that one hears about that while doing those quests? They're on my hit list.
Meliashmora as far as I know didn't exist in the age of the Vernal Wars so couldn't have risen a Vernal. It was built during the Holy Celestine Empire. Juliana was raised from the whatever Needle of some icy ice in Climanti and Vestera was raised from the Bubbling Cauldron of Ghalphalshi Swamp. Not sure if that is currently in-game.
If you do the meliashmora quest and then stick around you learn about the Vernal whose power sustains it. It's not an edifice, just an artifact.
I KNOW the Pearl was an edifice, I just can't remember who went up through it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out there was an edifice in or around Shallach that was enbeefening the Ur'dead there.
I also always read the Moors situation as 1) Shanth is raised through the Claws of Liberty, 2) his camp is destroyed as usually happens, 3) the Aslaran and Krokani in the Moors dismantle the edifice and rename it to the Claw(s) of Shanth, and hide it away in case it's needed again, 4) everyone not from the Moors forgets it's there because holy fuck the world is ending, 5) the captain of the Krokani legions smells a rotting fish during the Fall and goes home to turn on the Claws, 6) between the Moors being shielded, the mountains, and Halifax meddling with the wind the Taint is trapped in Mag, the area that is now the blasted lands, and Gloriana forests. Sucks to be them, but the rest of the Basin is safe. 7) You're welcome.
Is the Hand an edifice or just an artifact with a boatload of power?
Illith also destroyed Glomborolum, so would be very surprised if New Celest is built on it, as don't think Inner Sea = Amberle Sea.
Thoroughly recommend the Icewynd/Climanti quests for Vernal lore. And the Emerald Enclave is nifty too. There's also some Shanth lore available in Grey Moors that isn't part of the krokani/aslaran Djarrakh quest.
Most of the Vernal artifacts that have the name of one of the Vernal Gods on them are artifacts of power that they created in their war against the Soulless. I think the Hand of Tzaraziko is literally her hand, still fused with an eye of Illith.
As far as I know, all edifices of power have been destroyed. At least there are no known surviving edifices. Most of the cities known to raise Vernal Gods were also destroyed. The notable exception is the Piercing Needle of Transcendental Ice in Climanti that raised Juliana, even though you could argue that even that has been destroyed.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Off-hand, they are manifestations of their respective nexus that were produced when the nexii housed a glut of power that was actually threatening the stability of the nexii (or something like that?). Outside causing the problems of nexus stability again, I don't think much would happen if the nexus worlds are nuked.
I've heard it said that the onion model is woefully inaccurate for representing the planes, is there a better model? I know it goes Spirit+Nexus>Prime>Ethereal>Elemental>Cosmic+Domoth>Astral, but treating those as layers on top of/surrounding one another is incorrect?
Both filled with lots of tasty lore goodness but neither had the Edifices. But haunted house story, yep. Thanks.
That's where nexuses come in. They pierce planes because that's what they were designed to do -- to gather more power! You've seen how much elemental essence a person can rake in daily. Still, that wasn't enough. So expeditions were made, and nexuses began piercing the cosmic planes. Aquamancer-researchers found Celestia, became Celestines, etc. Tending to the angels and receiving boons from the Supernals was a huge motivator to just keep going. So finally, Cosmic Hope. The astral plane was speculated to be atop the cosmic. So they used the Stone of Truth and started from Shallamar to pierce up to astral...and that's when everything went to shit. But even so -- there is power on Astral. Tons of it. As you can see with the nodes. So mission basically accomplished.
That's why you see a dried up pool on Cancer, and the pan of iron filings on Capricorn. It's the tip of their nexus's reach. There's nothing more to pierce (as far as we know).
Hope this helps/is accurate.
The Nexus thing has nothing to do with not raising new Divine. That is the Threshold Abyss. Without that, we would be raising Vernal Gods instead of Ascendants.
Now it is possible that Edifices sucked up some kind of natural power as part of their efficiency per the hints-- I have not seen any explicit acknowledgement of how they did what they did! But the actual God-part is affected by the Threshold Abyss created by Ayridion.
The first Aquamancers were were merian inhabitants of the Crystal Sea who, upon seeing how great Druidry was working to heal the damage to the Forests, decided to attempt the same thing in the Oceans. They weren't Lakedancers, though, they were merian scholars. After Water was reached (presumably through Faethorn?), the Aquamancers were founded and they erected the Pool of Stars as a Water-analog to the Great Trees, ie. a nexus of power which could exist on multiple planes at once, allowing a greater flow of power and people between the two. From there, they reached Celestia and founded a religious order worshiping the Supernals. Supernal-followers built the City of Celest on the biggest island in the Crystal Sea (the one the Pool of Stars was built on) and all was well. Then the Paladins were founded as an order of Light-infused super-warriors to defend the Pool of Stars against naughty pilgrims. But the Emperor also had them do a bunch of land grabs, promptly annexing the then-nations of Shallach, Balach and Djarrakh. Gaudiguch built the Eternal Flame and got conquered by the ur'Guard auxiliary from Shallach, Hallifax build the Matrix and got diplomatically vassalized, and Magnagora was founded as part of the Empire in the first place for the express purpose of building the Stone of Truth in accordance with prophesy.
The Pearl of Amberle is based off the lost city of Glomborolum, which was called the Pearl of Amberle. You can see a model of the Nexus in the arena, the giant black coral spire in the middle. The Edifice you're thinking of is the White Shell of Alabellalum, which was a giant clam with an equally giant pearl in the middle. It ascended Dionamus. It's pretty certain that Celest's Arena doesn't contain an actual city, though just a model - New Celest wasn't built on the ruins of another place as far was we know.
E: Additional lore fun facts: Shallach was Urlach's outpost in the Basin of Life, and started life as a ur'Guard military camp. Balach was a Mugwump-run scientific institute founded atop the Aegis of Vestera and the prison of the Great Muud. And Djarrakh was originally a Goloth encampment with mind-controlled Krokani and Aslaran slaves. The Rashaala and Krydin Valik Aslaran tribes are actually both descended from said slaves, while the Paaviks are descended from the Krokani masters.
E: We don't know. It's entirely possible there's an entire second layer to Faethorn full of lakes and jungles, sorta like how Continuum is arranged. Or they might be attached on the east and west, surrounding the Baths and the Vinter's Realm.
Sorry for all the questions. Writing a few things IG and I've been curious about a ton of stuff. The more I learn, I swear, the more questions I have!