Unvote as well. Sorry @Yarith just had to be done. So we're back at nothing again, and I don't think @Synkarin has ever once made the declaration of being Cirno, they just have a frost themed card that we've seen.
The fact remains that he has successfully declared and used Icicle Fall now. Twice. There was that oddity with also attempting to use a "Frozen Icicle" and it not working, but... yeah.
This just leaves me back to where we started. We know absolutely nothing still, so do we just go to next night and day to figure out more, or shall we lounge around a bit more and extend the day?
I don't think that's true. We have identified 2/3 of the 3rd parties and found (perhaps to their detriment) a pretty town-aligned role. You were even (finally) satisfactorily confirmed.
I'm down for a second no lynch, because, yes, it would basically be blind. Unless we want to stake and burn Ileein, based off the "most 3rd party roles hurt town"?
At this point, after giving it a lot of thought, I am honestly quite opposed to a no lynch. Such to the point, in fact, that given the stump rules and what we know about how stumping will work, I'd rather be lynched myself than see a no lynch.
I'll explain why as might be necessary, but first I'd encourage you all to think about why I would suggest this. I feel like a lot of you aren't considering the possibilities involved with stumping, and would rather challenge you to think than hand down every last detail directly.
From what I understand, stumping just means they can still talk with us, but they're eliminated from their role and basically have no point to stick around, except for opinions. Being stumped is just being flat out eliminated except with the caveat of being allowed to come back and give a sassy, "I told you!". We don't even get information upon being stumped, there's no flip. You're at the mercy of the people being stumped for them to give you any information.
What evidence are we talking about? We've already found out that with stumping, they do not flip, if they can still win. Meaning if you lynch someone and they don't flip, congrats they're either town or mafia.
Multiple people have approached me, expressing confusion as to how the stumping ruleset actually works, so I'm here to clarify how the stumping mechanic works.
When someone is eliminated by any method, they are turned into a "stump". A stump counts as dead for all intents and purposes, but they are still able to communicate as they did before. A stumped character will NOT flip their character sheet. Their alignment will remain hidden to enable further play. Alignments and sheets are only flipped if someone has decisively won or lost. Stumped individuals retain their win condition and still win if the side they are on before they were stumped wins.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, Vivet, despite having "thought about it." The stumping rules do not appear to have any impact, aside from allowing people to continue posting, and being smug and/or deceptive as appropriate.
Well, except for me, obviously, as a third party who loses if lynched, no ifs ands or buts. If y'all lynch me despite promising to investigate on town's behalf, I'm out of here.
Jadice, the Frost Queen says to you, "Constant vigilance."
Ok. Hmm. I've never played a Mafia game like this. I have nfi how we're supposed to find people if we can't analyze voting patterns, aside from relying on power roles.
The stumping mechanic definitely adds a weird and new method of thinking about mafia. We don't have access to the most definitive means of gathering information anymore, so I guess the first question we should ask is: has Kira done anything to counter that loss of reliable information, and how best can we levy it?
According to google, almost all no reveal games have a reviver to counter the heavy bias towards scum.
On that note, I think we're focusing a bit too much on the flavor and characters. Kira's using those as skins to standard mafia roles, and imo it's more important to figure out if someone is a jailor or a doctor, versus figuring out their names. Those who know more about the Touhou universe, can you summarize a little bit about the names we do know, to help give more context so we can make better guesses at which roles they may be?
I think that's the thing, standard mafia roles aren't just picked based on the name. We know mine, and the closest we get is Miko has the ability to listen to ten different conversations. Whereas my power is nothing like that. Plus we've already gone over that we can't base anything off names, because there really is no alignment, such as good and bad characters.
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
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I honestly don't know where this leaves us regarding who we ought to vote or not. But something has got to give, somewhere. We can't find out how Kira's game responds to lynched stumps without having, well, someone stumped.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I'm not saying that the roles are picked based on the names. I'm saying we have the roles, with characters added to them for flavor. The roles come first, so, working backwards, we may be able to deduce who some people are.
I'm not saying that the roles are picked based on the names. I'm saying we have the roles, with characters added to them for flavor. The roles come first, so, working backwards, we may be able to deduce who some people are.
This logic works for my character, I think. Some of the Touhou savy people could probably guess at least part of my power based on my character.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, Vivet, despite having "thought about it." The stumping rules do not appear to have any impact, aside from allowing people to continue posting, and being smug and/or deceptive as appropriate.
Well, except for me, obviously, as a third party who loses if lynched, no ifs ands or buts. If y'all lynch me despite promising to investigate on town's behalf, I'm out of here.
In a game with experienced players, stumping would make a colossal difference. Especially when it is on this scale.
Being able to post is the single most important thing you can do, really. Let's say, for example, you are an investigator. You can learn everything about a player's role by investigating them in the night, but you literally can do nothing during the day phase other than vote, with zero explanation to back up that vote.
Would you rather have that, or the ability to do nothing other than talk?
An important thing to note - someone earlier asked Kiradawea if a stump could be investigated. Instead of responding with "no", Kiradawea said that would only be possible with a coroner power.
This doesn't necessarily mean there is a coroner, but this difference in potential response seems to infer that there may be.
Now, do we have any reason to assume that there is a town investigator? You might go about operating under that assumption, but there is no reason to do so. What if Ileein is the only investigative role outside of a coroner? What happens then, if you can't convince yourselves to trust Ileein? Would you feel like you cheated yourselves if you cast too many no lynches in a row early in the game?
We must also account for something both Siam and I have observed - that some of town, if not all of town, "starts" as town. What does that mean, exactly? Can something happen to trigger various people to no longer be town? Will it be obvious when it happens, or will it be hidden? It's hard to say, but it is a subtle wording that seems to hint at something.
We also know that stumped individuals retain their win condition, and still win if the side they are on before they are stumped wins. This has been confirmed to us.
Stumped individuals, therefore, still have incentive to participate and be an active presence in the game, even if it is only to point out inconsistencies and sway how others vote. And if there is a coroner-type, then you can know decisively how that individual is attempting to contribute to the game without worry of an alignment flip.
Depending on the abilities a given individual has, being stumped isn't all that problematic to them.
And as you might recall, I already revealed that I have a limited number of night actions. I have four, which each can only be used once ever. And I already burned one on night zero. Since they are all different, it is difficult to judge when and where they might be most valuable, and operate with them under any consistency.
If I get stumped, I lose access to those, but can remain active in the game, AND get locked into town alignment. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.
Out of interest, do you mind sharing the action you burned on Night 1, @Vivet?
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
#bringShikariback
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Man, we are learning so much information and yet we are nowhere closer to knowing who to lynch today. It's really something.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I think the stumping rule has manged to generate more info out of people's self-preservation instincts than Metrenome ever did. Well played, Kira, well played.
Out of interest, do you mind sharing the action you burned on Night 1, @Vivet?
Actually... sure. I sent out one of my animal friends to scan from the skies. They watched me, and also tracked a target of my choice. I can say that nobody visited me on night zero, and my tracking target targetted nobody as well.
I will not share who my tracking target is, however. This is to ensure that all the individuals who did nothing on night zero are forced to be truthful, lest they risk my being able to out them.
Not so sure it's the stumping rule that is causing self-preservation. If anything stumping is causing questions to be asked. When you get used to someone dying revealing who they are/were and then that's taken from you, is what we're trying to figure out. If there's a coroner that investigates stumps and reports, that's fine and dandy. But then what? We going to protect that individual so that mafia can't target them to keep stumps quiet? Even then, what stops a correct blind lynch hitting mafia, and the stump going, "You all suck, I'm town." While true they are then depending on mafia to win...nothing is going to be able to answer for them -except- a specific role. Even then if they stay hidden for a few days, who's to say we're not going to get multiple claims? And who's going to even -verify- those claims?
Just realised I was challenged and missed it. That wasn't actually on purpose, oops.
I really have no idea where to lean at the moment. Applying pressure in other places seems logical, but where? I don't know. Nothing is leaping out at me as overly suspicious that wasn't pretty well explained.
@Vivet heck with that, let's just ask everyone if they took a night action or not. Though I suppose I'm not sure how much good that would do, since I'm just going to guess that the person you tracked either doesn't have a night action, or just didn't take it. The only way I can think of that you're forcing someone to stay honest is if they claim they did something. EXAMPLE: I blocked so and so!. You'd be able to call that one person. But I feel the person you tracked is town sided at the very least.
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I'm down for a second no lynch, because, yes, it would basically be blind. Unless we want to stake and burn Ileein, based off the "most 3rd party roles hurt town"?
I'll explain why as might be necessary, but first I'd encourage you all to think about why I would suggest this. I feel like a lot of you aren't considering the possibilities involved with stumping, and would rather challenge you to think than hand down every last detail directly.
Well, except for me, obviously, as a third party who loses if lynched, no ifs ands or buts. If y'all lynch me despite promising to investigate on town's behalf, I'm out of here.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
"How best can we utilize it if it exists"
On that note, I think we're focusing a bit too much on the flavor and characters. Kira's using those as skins to standard mafia roles, and imo it's more important to figure out if someone is a jailor or a doctor, versus figuring out their names. Those who know more about the Touhou universe, can you summarize a little bit about the names we do know, to help give more context so we can make better guesses at which roles they may be?
I honestly don't know where this leaves us regarding who we ought to vote or not. But something has got to give, somewhere. We can't find out how Kira's game responds to lynched stumps without having, well, someone stumped.
Being able to post is the single most important thing you can do, really. Let's say, for example, you are an investigator. You can learn everything about a player's role by investigating them in the night, but you literally can do nothing during the day phase other than vote, with zero explanation to back up that vote.
Would you rather have that, or the ability to do nothing other than talk?
An important thing to note - someone earlier asked Kiradawea if a stump could be investigated. Instead of responding with "no", Kiradawea said that would only be possible with a coroner power.
This doesn't necessarily mean there is a coroner, but this difference in potential response seems to infer that there may be.
Now, do we have any reason to assume that there is a town investigator? You might go about operating under that assumption, but there is no reason to do so. What if Ileein is the only investigative role outside of a coroner? What happens then, if you can't convince yourselves to trust Ileein? Would you feel like you cheated yourselves if you cast too many no lynches in a row early in the game?
We must also account for something both Siam and I have observed - that some of town, if not all of town, "starts" as town. What does that mean, exactly? Can something happen to trigger various people to no longer be town? Will it be obvious when it happens, or will it be hidden? It's hard to say, but it is a subtle wording that seems to hint at something.
We also know that stumped individuals retain their win condition, and still win if the side they are on before they are stumped wins. This has been confirmed to us.
Stumped individuals, therefore, still have incentive to participate and be an active presence in the game, even if it is only to point out inconsistencies and sway how others vote. And if there is a coroner-type, then you can know decisively how that individual is attempting to contribute to the game without worry of an alignment flip.
Depending on the abilities a given individual has, being stumped isn't all that problematic to them.
And as you might recall, I already revealed that I have a limited number of night actions. I have four, which each can only be used once ever. And I already burned one on night zero. Since they are all different, it is difficult to judge when and where they might be most valuable, and operate with them under any consistency.
If I get stumped, I lose access to those, but can remain active in the game, AND get locked into town alignment. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.
#totallygoingtogetyounexttime
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
I will not share who my tracking target is, however. This is to ensure that all the individuals who did nothing on night zero are forced to be truthful, lest they risk my being able to out them.
I really have no idea where to lean at the moment. Applying pressure in other places seems logical, but where? I don't know. Nothing is leaping out at me as overly suspicious that wasn't pretty well explained.