I'm not bitter, I just understand the difference between, "Let's go kill Moon Ladies!", and "Let's go kick a Moon Lady and see who shows up."
I actually prefer the second. Cyndarin running in and seeing if anyone responds is much better than Cyndarin running in, seeing no one about, lighting the Ethereal Serenwilde completely on fire and slaughtering every Daughter and Aspect. It may accomplish more, technically, but it's no fun for anyone.
One could say such things similarly about any other org Pvp group as well. Good on you.
Oh, it wasn't anything against Cyndarin. I was using her as an example as someone who is incredibly powerful and good at PK, and who could cause a great deal of grief damage if she chose to exploit that. Given the options, I rather like it when she (or anyone) tests the waters to see if there's going to be a fight instead of waiting until there's no one around and going on a rampage. But that's because I'm not a PvPer.
I apologize if it came off as an insult.
It wasn't at all. I'm just happy someone said it.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
Another thought: Can you honestly tell me that Glomdoring is fulfilling its RP destiny to spread the wyrd and dominate Serenwilde and the cities if it has no villages and aetherbubbles? I'm sorry, but you need competent PKers 90% of the time to acquire these things. Peaced villages and noncontested claims notwithstanding.
EDIT: Inb4 the "Glomdoring is biding its time" bs. Spin doctors don't really fly with me.
Did I accidentally make my wording sound like I thought PK had nothing to do with the game? Or did I say something more to the effect that PK isn't the -only- aspect of the game? Go back and read again, honey bun
You're effectively trying to call out and shut down Ciaran, so yes, you really are trying to stifle it. Maybe you should reconsider your words.
I am asking this question in good faith. It is not sarcasm, comedy, or a veiled insult. Please respond accordingly.
If people are trying to find out if the other side wants to fight, and doing this by showing up and kicking a demon or whatever is frowned upon, why don't you just set up an OOC clan for people who want to schedule fights? It seems like you could just ask and not worry about scry turning up people who are AFK and so forth.
Normally I'll ask for a farscout, and then send a tell. Sometimes if there are a ton of people around to defend, I just go.
I am asking this question in good faith. It is not sarcasm, comedy, or a veiled insult. Please respond accordingly.
If people are trying to find out if the other side wants to fight, and doing this by showing up and kicking a demon or whatever is frowned upon, why don't you just set up an OOC clan for people who want to schedule fights? It seems like you could just ask and not worry about scry turning up people who are AFK and so forth.
^
Just one other clue: When there are members of the raiding party threatening to track down and kill defenders on Prime (outside the Cave of Chance, no less!) after the raiding party is repelled, you have to start wondering what's motivating whom. As ever, I'll qualify my comment by saying this: I am more than happy* to be attacked whenever/wherever you want. That's fine. We're members of opposed factions, and the Avenger system will ensure that things never get out of hand. So go nuts. But please, call it what it is.
* (Edit: more than happy in this regard just means I'm not going to ISSUE or lose sleep over it. I don't enjoy being ganked while I hunt or scratch my goodybag itch, and I scream at my monitor and get as butthurt at times as the next player. But that's life in any MUD worth playing amirite?)
I think this is blown a little out of proportion now (fancy me saying that). No one is saying that you have to PVP to get the most out of this game - you don't. No one is saying it's wrong to be raiding - it's not. But if you're fishing for fun, you will also want to temper your awareness with the fact that the person you're fishing for might not want to bite. That includes RP stuff as well. There are times when I am not in the mood for RP, and just want to mindlessly bash. And that's fine. Just like it's perfectly fine to do what Shaddus said - ignore a raider, and tell the newbie, "let me bring you bashing instead". No, it's not making the game more boring - just like raiding in itself is not inherently a bad thing either. And no, just because the person wants to do that, and bring along a newbie to do that, doesn't make them some kind of villain that is somehow destroying the game's funness and making the PK scene worse. They're perfectly entitled to do that, because this is a game, and that is what is fun for them. I literally don't RP unless someone beats me over the head with it nowadays, and I respect that. I think it's important for everyone to respect that as well.
Secondly, the comments that Lusternia can't survive without a thriving, vibrant PVP scene is very dubious at best. That idea that PVP is the thing central to IRE muds IS just as narrow-minded as the idea that RP is somehow more superior to PK. In fact, if you're trying to argue for the latter, you probably have a sturdier box to stand on. Anyone that knows the history of MUDs (and MUSHes) can tell you that 100% PK-based, mechanics-only text-games are niche to the point of nearly non-existence. (Hint: PvE is overwhelmingly more "mainstream" than PK in MUDs.) Case in point: the most populous telnet based text game out there is a MUSH with literally no mechanical combat. IRE uses a formula for the underlying mechanical infrastructure that has a heavier emphasis on PvP than PvE, and as a result, it's actually an outlier. We are basically niche players in the MUD universe. Wanting to see the part of Lusternia that is fun for you vibrant is well and good. Expecting everyone to contribute to making it so regardless of whether it is fun for them is... misplaced sentiment, to put it nicely. You don't expect someone to participate in shopkeeping RP if it's not fun for them, even though there may be people who make their entire player existence to be nothing more than a shopkeeper. Similarly, you don't do the same for PvP. If anything, the fact that PvP permeates so much of the Lusternian game world is even more reason to be far more restrained than when you're trying to get a customer in your shop to engage with you as a shop-keeper.
Another thought: Can you honestly tell me that Glomdoring is fulfilling its RP destiny to spread the wyrd and dominate Serenwilde and the cities if it has no villages and aetherbubbles? I'm sorry, but you need competent PKers 90% of the time to acquire these things. Peaced villages and noncontested claims notwithstanding.
EDIT: Inb4 the "Glomdoring is biding its time" bs. Spin doctors don't really fly with me.
Did I accidentally make my wording sound like I thought PK had nothing to do with the game? Or did I say something more to the effect that PK isn't the -only- aspect of the game? Go back and read again, honey bun
You're effectively trying to call out and shut down Ciaran, so yes, you really are trying to stifle it. Maybe you should reconsider your words.
Ciaran and yourself are blowing this out of proportion. I shall ask super nicely, and re-read the last few threads concerning this conversation.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
For the team that was bragging about fighting 4v7 in Etherglom 'despite' numbers and all that bullshit - you waited until you had 10 people ready to fight 4 of us sitting on Faethorn (we were joined by 2 others, making it 6v10). You literally sat on the other side of your archway waiting until the people showed up. This group included people who complain about numbers when it's stacked against them.
This is in addition to a certain someone (who was 'raving' earlier) -asking- us to fight on faethorn, then running away from a 7v5 (us 7) situation a few days ago.
Here's a question for you - why do you fight in Glom with discretionaries and fewer people, but will run and/or won't come out until you have superior numbers/experience against Celina and me?
Huh, I went into you guys alone. By the time I was deffed up and ready to go (delayed by the damned forum wars) they had already jumped back in. I didn't know how many north fighters there were.
Another thought: Can you honestly tell me that Glomdoring is fulfilling its RP destiny to spread the wyrd and dominate Serenwilde and the cities if it has no villages and aetherbubbles? I'm sorry, but you need competent PKers 90% of the time to acquire these things. Peaced villages and noncontested claims notwithstanding.
EDIT: Inb4 the "Glomdoring is biding its time" bs. Spin doctors don't really fly with me.
Did I accidentally make my wording sound like I thought PK had nothing to do with the game? Or did I say something more to the effect that PK isn't the -only- aspect of the game? Go back and read again, honey bun
You're effectively trying to call out and shut down Ciaran, so yes, you really are trying to stifle it. Maybe you should reconsider your words.
Honey, if I were trying to stifle PK, I wouldn't participate and offer pointers to those who ask me for PK advice. However, I'm getting a bit tired of hammering at this particular chunk of adamantium, so I'm done.
Raves for all the Glomdoring newbies. You're all awesome so far!
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
Why would I come into ethereal from Air without telling anyone?
Edit: When the group was in EthSeren.
Also, I could have hopped back into Air but I flew around to see if you could catch me.
But ok, I guess you know my motivations better than I do.
I'm straight up asking your motivations because they aren't adding up. Do you want to fight because it's fun or do you want to fight because you'll win? Because in Faethorn today and several days ago when you -asked- to fight, you only came out when you had the numbers/experience on your side.
Not even sure why people are going back and forth. Not even sure why Glom showed up to such a pitiful raid. All you're doing is encouraging the people who raid to have a meaningful reason to play Lusternia. Just tell them that you're busy and don't have time to play. They don't have the numbers to do any meaningful damage
All you're really doing is giving them mental encouragement to raid more because people may show up. If you're ignore them, they take their ball and go home after a while.
I just think this deserves another quote. I absolutely thought you were being sarcastic, but you were dead serious.
Why would I come into ethereal from Air without telling anyone?
Edit: When the group was in EthSeren.
Also, I could have hopped back into Air but I flew around to see if you could catch me.
But ok, I guess you know my motivations better than I do.
I'm straight up asking your motivations because they aren't adding up. Do you want to fight because it's fun or do you want to fight because you'll win? Because in Faethorn today and several days ago when you -asked- to fight, you only came out when you had the numbers/experience on your side.
Umm, what? I've been trying to work out the bugs with escaping p5 etc. I've had a lot of troubles when I'm trying to fly and escape. I keep getting loops. Hence flying etc.
It's really pathetic that you're trying to paint me in this negative light as someone who only takes winning fights, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Yeah, I asked you for a fight on Faethorn. I wish I had a log because I think we brought maybe 4 people, but then a bunch of alliance members jumped up also (after we already went in).
Do you have a log?
I just wish you could appreciate how extremely frustrating it is to intentionally sit out of fights often so as not to zerg (despite loving PvP), ask before raiding, check if people are done/want to fight more etc. etc. etc. just to get accused of doing the exact opposite. What more am I supposed to do!?
I've pointed out situations where you wanted to fight, but waited until the numbers evened up/surpassed what we had before engaging.
What more you're suppose to do is be consistent. Why are you ok fighting underhanded against Glom w/ discretionaries, but not against 7 of us in Faethorn? This was after you asked us to fight.
We easily could have left today when the group finally entered Faethorn, but we stuck it out and fought. We picked a fight after all.
Not even sure why people are going back and forth. Not even sure why Glom showed up to such a pitiful raid. All you're doing is encouraging the people who raid to have a meaningful reason to play Lusternia. Just tell them that you're busy and don't have time to play. They don't have the numbers to do any meaningful damage
All you're really doing is giving them mental encouragement to raid more because people may show up. If you're ignore them, they take their ball and go home after a while.
I just think this deserves another quote. I absolutely thought you were being sarcastic, but you were dead serious.
Amazing.
I've played this game for a long time, and one thing that tends to really impress me is the mindsets of various gods. One that really impressed me was Shikari.
Near the entrance to His godrealm is a book He wrote. The history and backstory itself is pretty wonderful, but near the front is a quote which I don't actually have the ability to cut and paste right now. Heavily paraphrasing, it said that you should never allow the enemy to goad you into attacking them. Attack them when you are assured of a victory, attack them when you have the high ground. A taunting tell or yell does little to prove superiority.
When you show up to raid, the people in that org don't owe you a response. If they want to defend, they'll defend. If they don't, they won't. Just like you don't "make them come defend", they don't make you leave if they don't show up to give you what you want.
If you want something but have to try and guilt someone into giving it to you, you don't deserve it in the first place.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Late to the party, so I'll just reply to a few key posts:
@Shaddus Fire Lords were last raided by me and Ciaran less than a week ago, during the weekend probably when we were on at the same time as @Cyndarin and @Synkarin. Had a pretty big fight that spilled out into Faethorn, too.
Which brings me to the next point: most fights happen on Ethereal because it's just so accessible to everyone. Godrealm mobs are usually influenced out, Cosmic and Elemental planes are a pain to get into/out of. Hence the eternal battleground that is Faethorn.
@Rancoura I actually recall a fairly recent forum post by Sarapis in Achaea (founder and head honcho). He originally made Achaea as a PvP MUD and jusr slapped on the RP afterwards. That's why there are some first players who were named Dragonknight etc. and were allowed to keep the name. So, IRE really is a PK MUD company from the get go.
However, what always seems to be the argument is that it's supppsed to be PK vs RP. It doesn't. They are not mutually exclusive, and in fact it's amazing when they go together. Both are necessary to Lusternia. It's just that PK is almost completely beholden to mechanics while RP can be facilitated by just SAYs and EMOTEs. There was a point here. Basically, don't make it seem like PK and RP are somehow opposite camps in battle.
Also, yes, we wait for bigger numbers when facing @Synkarin / @CyndarinAscends . Why not? They're a powerful, well-oiled, artifacted tandem. But we definitely don't always go into a fight with bigger numbers. I feel like this is a fact that the South constantly seeks to drown out, and quite frankly it's terribly annoying.
Kudos to you for giving Gaudi some raid love, @ Twytch
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Also, yes, we wait for bigger numbers when facing @Synkarin / @CyndarinAscends . Why not? They're a powerful, well-oiled, artifacted tandem. But we definitely don't always go into a fight with bigger numbers. I feel like this is a fact that the South constantly seeks to drown out, and quite frankly it's terribly annoying.
Thanks for answering my question and proving the point.
I would like to add something that I think is very important. The behavior that is exhibited in the last 2 or 3 pages of this thread is the kind of behavior that pushes people away from the game. I'm not planning on quitting or anything, but I went from having a fun time playing to being angry and frustrated. People suggest that raiding and griefing makes people want to quit, but I have yet to see anyone quit because their org got raided. In fact, just a few moments ago a player reached out to me and said that I motivated him to stick with the game when he was considering quitting, a southern player. After we fought I reached out to them and made light of the situation on an OOC level. ICly we're enemies, but OOCly we're fine. There are plenty of people that I regularly fight against and we have this sort of relationship.
Having a positive attitude and being helpful makes a healthy community. Having negative and bitter attitudes make a poisonous and unfun community. I walked into this thread on a high note, wanting to rave (even though I died many times!) and I am now leaving the thread bitter. It had nothing to do with what happened in the game. If I had died 100 times and people were laughing about it, I would be happier with Lusternia right now. Instead people have been bitter, negative, and accusative, which is contagious.
Please take a look in the mirror. I will.
Edit: Sorry Hoaracle, I missed that post, despite how obvious it is
Also, yes, we wait for bigger numbers when facing @Synkarin / @CyndarinAscends . Why not? They're a powerful, well-oiled, artifacted tandem. But we definitely don't always go into a fight with bigger numbers. I feel like this is a fact that the South constantly seeks to drown out, and quite frankly it's terribly annoying.
Thanks for answering my question and proving the point.
And again, drawing focus away from the fact that Team North does, in fact, participate in fights that is numerically less favourable to us.
Comments
Just one other clue: When there are members of the raiding party threatening to track down and kill defenders on Prime (outside the Cave of Chance, no less!) after the raiding party is repelled, you have to start wondering what's motivating whom. As ever, I'll qualify my comment by saying this: I am more than happy* to be attacked whenever/wherever you want. That's fine. We're members of opposed factions, and the Avenger system will ensure that things never get out of hand. So go nuts. But please, call it what it is.
* (Edit: more than happy in this regard just means I'm not going to ISSUE or lose sleep over it. I don't enjoy being ganked while I hunt or scratch my goodybag itch, and I scream at my monitor and get as butthurt at times as the next player. But that's life in any MUD worth playing amirite?)
Secondly, the comments that Lusternia can't survive without a thriving, vibrant PVP scene is very dubious at best. That idea that PVP is the thing central to IRE muds IS just as narrow-minded as the idea that RP is somehow more superior to PK. In fact, if you're trying to argue for the latter, you probably have a sturdier box to stand on. Anyone that knows the history of MUDs (and MUSHes) can tell you that 100% PK-based, mechanics-only text-games are niche to the point of nearly non-existence. (Hint: PvE is overwhelmingly more "mainstream" than PK in MUDs.) Case in point: the most populous telnet based text game out there is a MUSH with literally no mechanical combat. IRE uses a formula for the underlying mechanical infrastructure that has a heavier emphasis on PvP than PvE, and as a result, it's actually an outlier. We are basically niche players in the MUD universe. Wanting to see the part of Lusternia that is fun for you vibrant is well and good. Expecting everyone to contribute to making it so regardless of whether it is fun for them is... misplaced sentiment, to put it nicely. You don't expect someone to participate in shopkeeping RP if it's not fun for them, even though there may be people who make their entire player existence to be nothing more than a shopkeeper. Similarly, you don't do the same for PvP. If anything, the fact that PvP permeates so much of the Lusternian game world is even more reason to be far more restrained than when you're trying to get a customer in your shop to engage with you as a shop-keeper.
Don't even start.
Raves for all the Glomdoring newbies. You're all awesome so far!
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
I'm just pointing out inconsistencies in your story.
btw 10v6 was the start, that didn't include Mnemosyne or Auriella who came later.
Edit: When the group was in EthSeren.
Also, I could have hopped back into Air but I flew around to see if you could catch me.
But ok, I guess you know my motivations better than I do.
Amazing.
It's really pathetic that you're trying to paint me in this negative light as someone who only takes winning fights, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Yeah, I asked you for a fight on Faethorn. I wish I had a log because I think we brought maybe 4 people, but then a bunch of alliance members jumped up also (after we already went in).
Do you have a log?
I just wish you could appreciate how extremely frustrating it is to intentionally sit out of fights often so as not to zerg (despite loving PvP), ask before raiding, check if people are done/want to fight more etc. etc. etc. just to get accused of doing the exact opposite. What more am I supposed to do!?
What more you're suppose to do is be consistent. Why are you ok fighting underhanded against Glom w/ discretionaries, but not against 7 of us in Faethorn? This was after you asked us to fight.
We easily could have left today when the group finally entered Faethorn, but we stuck it out and fought. We picked a fight after all.
Near the entrance to His godrealm is a book He wrote. The history and backstory itself is pretty wonderful, but near the front is a quote which I don't actually have the ability to cut and paste right now. Heavily paraphrasing, it said that you should never allow the enemy to goad you into attacking them. Attack them when you are assured of a victory, attack them when you have the high ground. A taunting tell or yell does little to prove superiority.
When you show up to raid, the people in that org don't owe you a response. If they want to defend, they'll defend. If they don't, they won't. Just like you don't "make them come defend", they don't make you leave if they don't show up to give you what you want.
If you want something but have to try and guilt someone into giving it to you, you don't deserve it in the first place.
@Shaddus
Fire Lords were last raided by me and Ciaran less than a week ago, during the weekend probably when we were on at the same time as @Cyndarin and @Synkarin. Had a pretty big fight that spilled out into Faethorn, too.
Which brings me to the next point: most fights happen on Ethereal because it's just so accessible to everyone. Godrealm mobs are usually influenced out, Cosmic and Elemental planes are a pain to get into/out of. Hence the eternal battleground that is Faethorn.
@Rancoura
I actually recall a fairly recent forum post by Sarapis in Achaea (founder and head honcho). He originally made Achaea as a PvP MUD and jusr slapped on the RP afterwards. That's why there are some first players who were named Dragonknight etc. and were allowed to keep the name. So, IRE really is a PK MUD company from the get go.
However, what always seems to be the argument is that it's supppsed to be PK vs RP. It doesn't. They are not mutually exclusive, and in fact it's amazing when they go together. Both are necessary to Lusternia. It's just that PK is almost completely beholden to mechanics while RP can be facilitated by just SAYs and EMOTEs. There was a point here. Basically, don't make it seem like PK and RP are somehow opposite camps in battle.
Also, yes, we wait for bigger numbers when facing @Synkarin / @CyndarinAscends . Why not? They're a powerful, well-oiled, artifacted tandem. But we definitely don't always go into a fight with bigger numbers. I feel like this is a fact that the South constantly seeks to drown out, and quite frankly it's terribly annoying.
Having a positive attitude and being helpful makes a healthy community. Having negative and bitter attitudes make a poisonous and unfun community. I walked into this thread on a high note, wanting to rave (even though I died many times!) and I am now leaving the thread bitter. It had nothing to do with what happened in the game. If I had died 100 times and people were laughing about it, I would be happier with Lusternia right now. Instead people have been bitter, negative, and accusative, which is contagious.
Please take a look in the mirror. I will.
Edit: Sorry Hoaracle, I missed that post, despite how obvious it is