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What is the idea behind raiding?
Aeldra
, using cake powered flight
Hey,
I wanted to ask this for a long while, to both sides equally, for I truly do not understand it. Those in my org/alliance surely got frustrated at me sometimes being all like 'I'm helping chasing them off, but am not going to raid them'. The reason behind this is, that I can not, in the slightest, wrap my head around it. Granted, I'm probably more a non-com then a com, but, what I observed so far:
- many times it's high class, out-artied powerful pkers on either side slaughtering the people who feel pressured by crying loyals to come and defend ( if they're a little like me, those cries really sting and you'll go up there ) instead of fighting people that are actually a challenge or who even -want- to fight.
- I've had countless times when even only one or two 'newb-ish' fighters or a single 'high-level' fighter shows up on either side, the attacker dodges and runs.
- I've heard "wanting to have PK" for most of the justifications on either side, but... from what I understand, it's not really getting you that. It's not pitting people of comparable skilllevel or of halfway interesting odds against each other. 90% of all raids I see or notice are slaughter fests for either the attacks or the defenders and that not by being outskilled or outnumbered, but by design.
So, my question is, why do people do it?
And before you answer, this is a non-nonsense question, I really am serious. I do not understand the point behind how the raids are held and why they're held both for the attacker and the defender. I mean, the fun's in defeating a group of equally or better skilled opponents, but that's not what I see happening.
If would love to hear answers that have and maybe from that, we could even spring something that's getting people more what they want, instead of something that's more frustrating people who feel obliged to react, then actually being fun? :-)
I wanted to ask this for a long while, to both sides equally, for I truly do not understand it. Those in my org/alliance surely got frustrated at me sometimes being all like 'I'm helping chasing them off, but am not going to raid them'. The reason behind this is, that I can not, in the slightest, wrap my head around it. Granted, I'm probably more a non-com then a com, but, what I observed so far:
- many times it's high class, out-artied powerful pkers on either side slaughtering the people who feel pressured by crying loyals to come and defend ( if they're a little like me, those cries really sting and you'll go up there ) instead of fighting people that are actually a challenge or who even -want- to fight.
- I've had countless times when even only one or two 'newb-ish' fighters or a single 'high-level' fighter shows up on either side, the attacker dodges and runs.
- I've heard "wanting to have PK" for most of the justifications on either side, but... from what I understand, it's not really getting you that. It's not pitting people of comparable skilllevel or of halfway interesting odds against each other. 90% of all raids I see or notice are slaughter fests for either the attacks or the defenders and that not by being outskilled or outnumbered, but by design.
So, my question is, why do people do it?
And before you answer, this is a non-nonsense question, I really am serious. I do not understand the point behind how the raids are held and why they're held both for the attacker and the defender. I mean, the fun's in defeating a group of equally or better skilled opponents, but that's not what I see happening.
If would love to hear answers that have and maybe from that, we could even spring something that's getting people more what they want, instead of something that's more frustrating people who feel obliged to react, then actually being fun? :-)
Avatar / Picture done by the lovely Gurashi.
1
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Comments
From what I can see, people raid because PVP is fun for them and raids are encouraged mechanically to foster PVP. Those raids actually give IC benefits, hence they reward you for PVPing. Not all raiding areas are made equal though (hence why people target Spheres and Vortex more than, say, the Supernals and the Demonlords). Since we use a lot of alliances, the idea is that no matter where you strike, the interested PVPers will (ideally) come out to play. Some people are less interested in getting an even fight though and more interested in winning a raid, so they strike intentionally when less people are around to have an advantage.
You also have to keep in mind that PVP is hard to get into, so the most talented people with the most artis etc are the people who've stuck around a long time and generally speaking are friends with the other people who've stuck around a long time. So unintentionally some of the best PVPers get in the same org, arguably imbalancing the competition. But those people still enjoy combat and still enjoy raiding, and the truth is that a Demonlord raid etc is actually still really hard to do without the right amount of numbers. When you get the numbers it's exciting and you want to give the raid a go while you can.
Further, if you spend time always waiting for people to step up and defend, even when your competition has numbers online, those defenders sometimes give up when they perceive they will lose, as some people only enjoy PVP when they perceive a chance of winning. Which makes it tougher to play the 'do I wait for people to fight me' game. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, just outside looking in.
The problems you're describing look to be 1) Small population, 2) High learning curve as well as high burnout rates for PVPers, and 3) Like-minded people grouping together, which is normal. I don't know how to solve those things, though.
The problem is bringing 2 people to raid often seems like more than the number of people that are willing to defend. Which is depressing. #Emptysternia
I don't do it for mechanical benefits, I don't do it to win. It's just that small group fighting is the part of Lusternia that I enjoy the most, and two-man raids are the best way to get that. I also try to encourage people to join queue for wargames when I feel like there are enough people around, but I rarely get the 7 needed.
The short answer is killing people is fun. Lighting up deathsight, collecting essence, adding names to your KILLS list, people react in more entertaining ways than mobs, testing a new strategy, just trying to piss off so and so, etc. Different people have different motivations. Ultimately it's a conflict oriented game, and these players are playing the game as it was designed to be played.
You can't define "fun" for the PKing community based on your own opinions about PK. Sometimes the fun is fighting a tougher group, sometimes it's in blowing up a bunch of people you've blown up 100 times before, sometimes fighting a big zerg is so challenging it's actually impossible and not fun at all, sometimes people just want the fat gold drops from the Moon Ladies. I've done a thousand meldbombs, and I still get a kick out of watching 5 Northerns explode at once. I also get a kick out of raiding 10 v 1 as a druid on Celestia. I also get a kick out of taking big risks and diving into a Seren with every discretionary power up to see if we can gank Demartel or Ryboi or whoever before they zerg can respond (and sometimes we lose that gamble).
Generally speaking, it's often just the constantly changing dynamics of raids and Pk that make it entertaining.
Though I'd argue that raiding isn't the -only- way the game or conflicts were meant to be played
You and your pits deserve 1000 deaths.
It takes a high level of dedication and a lot of practice to git gud, though, and I've never really had the time or competitive drive to really become more than 'barely competent' (and most of the time even that was up for debate), so grain of salt with my view, but when I raided, it was always so that I could try to feel important to the team.
It also added depth to roleplay, reasons more than historical lore ones to develop grudges/rp conflict, people my character was genuinely afraid of and having to deal with that, finding ways to twist the recent exasperating raid into a different narrative ic. For sadly short-lived period of time while leveling a character I developed a nemesis I could spar regularly in the arena/send rage-filled propaganda letters to. PvP doesn't always lend itself easily to this. I've definitely suffered unwilling defender burnout before. But I've also dealt with "oh look, another new novice who I am going to invest a good hour of rp into because I have to because of my position and then never see again" burnout. And burnout from general bureaucratic red tape rp that some people really enjoy, more power to them.
Also, just because people complain a lot about the frustrations they are encountering with their chosen playstyle in a way that makes you wonder why on earth they are doing this thing that they are clearly not having fun with it... well, see me griping whenever I'm trying to put a new stage thing together. There can be a lot of minor frustrations on the way to a big awesome payoff of fun.
I have had it a lot (there's neary every day that seren's ladies cry for help ) that a raider dodged as soon as they got sight of me. I really wondered why someone was doing that? Maybe they were getting a kick out of it, I was really interested what drives them to attack enemy territory but run as soon as they see combatants. I hear the same amount of 'our' people on nil/etherglom, not sure if they run or not.
I get the kick behind group fights and I know that raiding is a popular way to start that, and I think that's cool and those fights usually are fun. I'm mostly way to sleepy by then to actually join them, but I see them happen.
But for me, it was most interesting what's the motivation behind these smaller raids that I couldn't really fathom. For example, I wasn't really aware of mechanical benefits (such as huge gold drops) aside of a little power that can be gained.
So far, the thread has mostly accomplished what I wanted it to, it has broadened my horizon on different player perspectives. It's what I wanted an am glad I got it :-) Thank you all!
As for the 'change' question, I mostly added it as I recently saw something on the twitter thread, but probably shouldn't have added it in hindsight.
I'm glad you feel like you got the answers you were looking for from the thread.
I do this all the time, I kill a Lady and sit in Faethorn or the Seren arch to see who pops up. It's a mixed bag, and I, personally, know I will get a multiple org reaction just because they see my name as opposed to Stevie the new raider. So part of it is just figuring out what you're getting into before diving head first. Look before you leap, etc etc.
Not saying that's what you do. But having thought about why I hate PvP so much, I think I've figured out that this is often my instinctive reaction to solo raiders.
I won't name and shame on the forums and I hope nobody from the North is doing the same thing. If they are, let me know and I will have words with them.
I can see why it would be annoying, but I wouldn't call them(or me) trolls.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I raid Ethereal Serenwilde because Moon is an affront to Night, and Moon's Ladies are killable - game mechanics don't allow Moon to actually be hurt, so this is really the only physical way of affecting her. I join raids on Celestia because a decent number of Celestians participate in killing Daughters or fighting our forces in Faethorn. I will especially initiate confrontation in retaliation to enemy raids (which don't really bother me on an OOC level unless they happen right before I need to go to bed, but they're definitely an RP reason to retaliate).
Admittedly, again as a relatively new PK'er, there is definitely the enjoyment of winning duels or group battles on an OOC level - to this day I'm still surprised that I can compete with the seasoned fighters. I also swell with pride when Glomdoring pulls off a victory, especially against overwhelming odds, as well as myself if I happen to be alone. It's a high that's hard to find elsewhere, and I enjoy the sheer challenge of trying to "battle" in a text game.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight