Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Repeatedly posting the same dismissive comment about perceived value just because people responded to the thread's original request is kind of turdish.
Like Hifarae Hills, some Seren can buy the artifact and then just grief any Glom trying to do their epic quest with impunity. Talk about lame.
That's how it works now. Because the Hills don't enemy, there isn't anything realistic the Glom can do to stop a Seren griefing their epic quest cycle with (Avenger guaranteed) impunity and vicea versa. The best option is just to wait until the aggressor becomes bored and moves on or logs off. It is lame! This is actually the issue that an artifact might help to solve, in addition to a common skill.
Reading my post, it wasn't a suggestion to carte blanche ignoring Avenger in one area, or even negating Avenger at all. The core issue is that Avenger 'protects' prime griefing in some areas, as well as innocent folks minding their own business. Some mechanic that makes use of this fact is conceivable. I edited one idea into that post, well before anyone continued responding to this thread: Make a common skill that lets the user bodyguard an NPC against player attacks. If the area is Avenger protected, you (the person trying to kill the named npc) will have to declare the defender to circumvent their bodyguard. This won't prevent stopping a quest by killing NPCs, as most quests have more than one important named NPC and the quest doer can't do the quest while simultaneously bodyguarding the NPC. It does give folks a reasonable way to contest an area without bringing entire orgs down on their head by declaring (which works exactly once on any given target anyways). The artifact version of this provides a stronger effect, but one that is tied to one area in particular. Ooooor... Perhaps the skill requires some kind of area choosing too, and you can only decide to be a defender of X areas and have some limit on switching them - artifact upgrades available.
I think that would more neatly fit the aspect of the Crowns that I see in the spectacles and teleporting effects, an aspect that is at odds with the characterization of the artifacts as bashing artifacts. Is the idea that you have a crown for a place you like (with bonuses to interacting with players hunting there) or a place you don't like (with bonuses to killing the npcs there)? The messages seem to indicate the latter, which makes the teleporting and yell effects weird.
For the record, I haven't dismissed any opinions or feedback, nor do I think anyone else has. I mean if by saying that your opinion on the worth or value of this artifact is not the end-all say-all on it's actual worth, then yeah, I guess I have.
It's simply offering another alternative to your feedback. I personally won't be buying this artifact either, because I also don't think it's worth it for me. That doesn't mean I can't see the value that it's presenting or what it's offering and how others may see that as useful.
As @Lerad pointed out, there are parts of the artifacts (and artifacts writ large) that have soft value: effects that different people will rate and hold in higher personal esteem that don't directly translate to currency. These don't really have a fully objective value, beyond comparing the effects to the prices of similar effects. My sarcastic response to @Falmiis was intended to point out that it's still possible to estimate the approximate value an average player will assign to those effects though, or it would be impossible to put a price tag on purely convenience or flavor purchases. The Glamrock has purely aesthetic effects that appeal to different people differently, yet somehow it still has a price tag that adjusted to its value. You can't just throw up your hands because ~opinions~ and toss aside all discussion of value. Clearly, I don't really rate those kinds of things particularly high, especially not when you have to pay for effects you don't want to get them.
There are parts of the artifacts (The buffs) that have definitive and objective value, especially when the understanding is that the buffs aren't primarily being used for PvP. The value of a credit is set by the dollar amount assigned by IRE. The value of a credit sets up the value of gold, the fraction of a credit each bit of gold is worth. The value of a buff in terms of PvE output is in how much faster it allows you to bash, netting faster gold and faster essence. In other words, with the exception of essence - which I contend becomes nigh useless for the majority of players at a certain point - you can directly translate how many credits a PvE item costs into an (average) gold cost for that item, and compare that to the amount of bonus gold it generates. I haven't sat down and done the calculation for any of these areas (and it'll be different for each), but in general a 3/12 buff translates to less than 9% additional gold and essence per unit of time. Really quick and dirty back of the napkin math tells me that it'd take.. thousands of hours (well, clears of that area) to have that portion of the artifact pay itself back. Not to gain back the gold, but for the amount of extra gold you get (some value less than 10%) to exceed a ballpark of how much it would cost to buy those credits with that gold.
You're right, other people might see it as useful in a bashing context. Those people have incorrect opinions. The bashing utility is not worth the credits in the pure sense that the value of the gold you will generate does not outpace the value of the credits you spent for a long time. Gold is also dramatically less useful than credits, so this calculation involves you gambling on credit prices remaining stable or going down, which historically just isn't a winning bet. In the context of solo play, the crown doesn't make sense as a bashing artifact. It is pretty cost efficient in relative terms compared to purchasing combat artifacts, if you do a really significant part of your combat on Prime in resource-less non-traditional conflict areas. All the folks who might do that already have capped out what buffs they want, or will look to other artifacts to improve their combat ability in all areas.
Personally, my suggestion to address these artifacts in particular would be to reduce, remove, or split the buff effects, add in more flavor utility, and lower the price point. Do some of the things @Lerad suggested, and possibly offer reskins of the artifact to represent more benign 'mastery' for folks that might be squicked out by buying crowns of dominion. I personally think it's weird to be paying credits for VIP RP 'control' over an area and would side-eye the hell out of anyone who decides to loudly declare they are master of the kepheran hives because they have a fancy crown that casts illusions on the area (and 9% max more damage/resists in that area) and zaps people.
I didn't get any numbers from Estarra when I asked, but the big thing is that it's Unblockable damage. @Estarra said something along the lines of: "It's Magic damage, but it's unblockable". That could mean that it's magic sourced (Which means.. nothing) unblockable damage, meaning that it is not modified by anything. It could also mean that it's somehow affected by magic typing buffs but not by magic defenses.
Yes, Enyalida, if you're trying to earn back the gold to make credits, you probably never will. Which is the case for most artifacts actually. It's weird that people still buy them though..... because maybe, I don't know, just maybe, they aren't buying them with the intention of making the gold back?
You're also ignoring other things, like esteem, experience, essence etc.
That crowns seem like a really cool idea! Though, I echo the concerns of others that this is a niche market. I can't really seem to justify buying just one crown, when it runs the risk that someone else who has a crown has swept through the area and completely cleared it leaving my supposed prime bashing spot barren. I would probably get more bang for my buck just stick with artifact runes to boost h/m/e and its regeneration or other misc bashing artifacts. I'd like to see the crowns expanded upon where you could TUNE them to areas designated. Like once a Lusternian year, you can swap your crown of mastery area to a new area to kind of keep it fresh, ya know?
Things I really like about the crowns are the RP elements they threw in. Cause we are in desperate need for RP!
I agree with the price point feels. I think for me it feels to be a bit much probably because I would only get the Lirangsha one and the benefits I really derive from that are one type of influencing.
Personally, I kinda wish it was a bit more like the similar artifact in Aetolia that was mentioned recently, in that I'd be happy to buy "jewels" for the crown that can be inserted and then tuned to a specific buff in a specific zone. Then I'd maybe justify getting my influence buffs in Lirangsha and the Chancel, the damage buffs for Icewynd, and then I could see picking up jewels every now and then for the enter/exit awareness etc. As a side benefit, it'd also just be one artifact in my inventory (that might end up fabulously bedazzled with jewels)
I think we're over-estimating how powerful these will be in PvP. Note, I haven't tested numbers. If the rooting is insane, or smite does 20% max HP or crazy things like that, I'm wrong. Here I'm just assuming reasonable numbers.
Crowns of Mastery: 750 credits
- Master of a specific area granting a multitude of benefits while
in the area, including:
- Universal Damage Resistance 3/12 -- useful depending on how curio'd/runed out you are. Most fighters make sure to have nice resistances to their opposing org though.
- Universal Damage Buff 3/12 -- not useful. You should be 13/13 of your damage type before thinking about buying crowns.
- Regeneration 3/12 -- negated by music boxes
- Universal Influence Buff 3/12 -- irrelevant
- Entry/exit awareness in the area -- nice, but most people have smokesense or specs
- Strong rooting ability in the area -- most useful part. Hardly game breaking. It's annoying dealing with cement socked people but it's not the end of the world
- Fast teleport to anyone in the area (stacks with other teleport
speed devices); note that only the target has to be in the area -- useful, but doesn't seem OP (unless it's reallllllly fast when stacked)
- Syntax: SMITE <target> - special attack against denizens and players,
though only usable if at full mana and costs 500 mana to cast;
also can be done remotely against players (lower damage) -- zap clone, maybe slightly stronger? No big deal
- Syntax: PROCLAIM <text> - sends a message to everyone in the area -- irrelevant
I don't see why they shouldn't be added to astral. Basically you get bonus rooting and DMP for PvP, otherwise they're really nice for bashing.
OPINION:I agree that credit-for-credit these seem underwhelming. But my (limited) experience of Lusty artefacts is that counting credits in and out of an artefact often doesn't capture its Awesome:
Harvesting Gloves: twice as many herbs... whack. Half the astral exposure to get sparkleberries... Awesome.
For me, it's often these secondary benefits of artefacts which are a) unquantifiable and b) most attractive. So I guess what I'm saying is that, as others have stated, if you're expecting this artefact to pay for itself at any point in your Lusty career, you're going to be disappointed. But if it pimps your RP, gives you a midbie leg-up, or otherwise gives you a secondary mechanical boost that isn't clearly explicit in the text, then it'll likely be worth every penny. TL;DR - I think it is too early to judge one way or the other. Let's get some feedback from people with Crowns before we decide that they're the worst thing ever to grace IRE, or the best invention since the Wheel.
IDEA: Would it be out of the question to add a little more e-peen to this? So I buy the Crown of Cool Place, that makes me the master right? But what if Twytch also has the crown? How can we both be masters? The idea is to add a little ranking system within like Crowns, such that your crown accrues Mastery points as you bash, influence, or PK others with the crown within the area of mastery. Accruing points could power up the crown, and maybe the people in the top two places could get some macdaddy buffs to stuff. There would have to be a decent level of mastery point decay; top dogs don't get to cool their heels.
@Versalean I think my issue with the crowns is that I could not justify encouraging a midbie to buy them. If you have even a lowbie who wants to get some artifacts, for influencing they can just buy runes for ego regen, charity, and empowering.
At the levels the crown offers that's 450 credits and it's available to them across the game and useful both in areas applicable to them as well as areas they'll venture into later on, they also have 300 credits left with which they could upgrade the purchased runes or invest in others such as their damage runes which again will maintain usefulness to them.
This would also mean that if their favoured location is taken, they can just go elsewhere without a drop in their available buffs.
@Saran - yeah I do totally see what you mean - and I agree that mechanically the Crowns do not add up - which is why I'm just reiterating that the 'Awesome' side of the crown might be what makes up the 300 credit shortfall for people who are so inclined.
The other thing I want to state is that I love that most of Lusty's artefacts are mechanically underwhelming. I've come over from a MUD where 2/3 forum 'discussions' degenerate to "You only won because you're a credit card whore" within about two pages, and I think Lusty's doing it better.
Feedback: I would've been tempted if the prices for these things were not that high. 750cr is a lot and thus will not be something I would personally be buying simply because it's price is that high and I only get -one- area out of it. I still think the idea is a good one and I think that people who have different credit margins then me will feel drawn to them. If they were changed that you could add additonal areas through a cheaper route on your existing crown... well that may be something, that makes them more interesting.
The only thing I really do have a gripe witch is the 'fast teleport', esp. as you don't have to be -in- the area to teleport to someone, depending on how fast the teleport really is. I guess we'll have to see.
Heh, yeah I can appreciate that artifacts aren't always a necessity.
But at the same time, I don't really like paying money for something that's not really useful to me. Which is why I suggested using the building mechanic already used by Aetolia/Wonderitems in combination with a tuning option so that its a crown reflecting your mastery over aspects of the world. This way, I could get the influencing benefits in Lirangsha where I'd use them, potential bashing buffs in other places where I'd use those, and if i'm feeling nervous in an area I can tune the specs benefit in that area. (I'm of course suggesting that tuning would be a permanent option.) Kinda like a really customisable wonder item, using a more easily obtained currency.
A couple of other comments on the actual mechanics of the artifacts:
-Rooting is a strictly pvp mechanic. Some of these areas are enemy territory, and the only PK concern you generally have is getting ganked in these. Rooting isn't all that useful if you are getting jumped. Outside of preventing empress into death rooms, a ganker doesn't really have a reason to force movement.
-Smite requires full mana which makes it a weird mechanic. Consider places like the kepheran hives that do a little bleeding, so you're rarely at max mana, but they also don't sip/sparkle/scroll for it because regen tics will handle the low bleeding. Smite will require you to sip/scroll/sparkle before each attack if below max mana, and if this is aimed at midbies and the not-credit-wealthy, that's an extra cost that'll really add up over time. I think it's okay to just make it cost 500 mana an attack and not require full mana.
I guess the max mana requirement was added as some sort of PK limiter, but these things have virtually no PK application in the areas they exist for.
-They should have the ability to instantly teleport to the area they are aligned with! I think that'd be a useful addition.
-Maybe some squad buffs? Like if the leader of the squad has a crown, it acts as the artifact standard (available via goop) and also gives 5% more xp/gold/whatever to all squad members.
Why isn't there a Lirangsha crown, or did I miss something?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Sorry, can't quote on this tablet, but ref @CyndarinAscends ideas to improve the artefact, +1 to every point, but on the issue of instant teleport to the area, can anybody comment on why the pound of flesh (teleport to Prison) was discontinued?
Why isn't there a Lirangsha crown, or did I miss something?
We were told no during the discussion.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Sorry, can't quote on this tablet, but ref @CyndarinAscends ideas to improve the artefact, +1 to every point, but on the issue of instant teleport to the area, can anybody comment on why the pound of flesh (teleport to Prison) was discontinued?
Can't be bought anymore, but is still available as (rare) prizes in RNG presents.
Oh, somehow, I read that as "whether the pound of flesh was discontinued". Need to get my eyes checked.
You'll need Estarra to tell you the reasoning, I'm afraid. Best we can do is offer guesses about why. It's possible that they were just meant to be limited edition, like some dolls are - sold for a while, then never again, to encourage people to buy these when they come out. Though we've not seen limited edition stuff much lately.
Proprietor: Trader Bob. --------(Item)-------(Description)----------------------------(Stock)-(Price)- [Wearable Wonders] crown268278: the Crown of the Kephera Hives 12 750cr crown268283: the Crown of the Emanations 12 750cr crown268290: the Crown of Flesh and Blood 12 750cr crown268293: the Crown of the Icewynd 12 750cr crown268295: the Crown of the Gutter 12 750cr crown268304: the Crown of Lirangsha 12 750cr crown268305: the Crown of the Chancel 12 750cr crown268467: the Crown of Dionamus 12 750cr crown268558: the Crown of the Illithoid Prison 12 750cr crown268637: the Crown of the Catacombs 12 750cr
Why isn't there a Lirangsha crown, or did I miss something?
We were told no during the discussion.
Interesting. According to the announcement...
- Crowns Available:
- Crown of the Kephera Hives (all kepheran hives)
- Crown of the Emanations (Shallamurine Cathedral)
- Crown of Flesh and Blood (Land of Flesh & Blood/Muud)
- Crown of the Icewynd (Icewynd Plains)
- Crown of the Gutter (Waste Storage Facility)
- Crown of Lirangsha (Lirangsha Retreat)
- Crown of the Chancel (Chancel of Clangoran Mysteries)
- Crown of Dionamus (Mount Dio)
- Crown of the Illithoid Prison (Illithoid Prison)
- Crown of the Catacombs (Shallach Catacombs)
Was it removed again at some point, or was the announcement simply incorrect?
I mixed up Nirvana with Lirangsha! #:-S
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
How about a Crown of Chaos? Works like the other crowns, but can be tuned to any area on prime. Lasts 20 minutes, activatable once per Lusternian day, three times per month. Doesn't function in commune/city limits, doesn't work during revolts, or during seal events. 1250 credits.
I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
Comments
Reading my post, it wasn't a suggestion to carte blanche ignoring Avenger in one area, or even negating Avenger at all. The core issue is that Avenger 'protects' prime griefing in some areas, as well as innocent folks minding their own business. Some mechanic that makes use of this fact is conceivable. I edited one idea into that post, well before anyone continued responding to this thread: Make a common skill that lets the user bodyguard an NPC against player attacks. If the area is Avenger protected, you (the person trying to kill the named npc) will have to declare the defender to circumvent their bodyguard. This won't prevent stopping a quest by killing NPCs, as most quests have more than one important named NPC and the quest doer can't do the quest while simultaneously bodyguarding the NPC. It does give folks a reasonable way to contest an area without bringing entire orgs down on their head by declaring (which works exactly once on any given target anyways). The artifact version of this provides a stronger effect, but one that is tied to one area in particular. Ooooor... Perhaps the skill requires some kind of area choosing too, and you can only decide to be a defender of X areas and have some limit on switching them - artifact upgrades available.
I think that would more neatly fit the aspect of the Crowns that I see in the spectacles and teleporting effects, an aspect that is at odds with the characterization of the artifacts as bashing artifacts. Is the idea that you have a crown for a place you like (with bonuses to interacting with players hunting there) or a place you don't like (with bonuses to killing the npcs there)? The messages seem to indicate the latter, which makes the teleporting and yell effects weird.
As @Lerad pointed out, there are parts of the artifacts (and artifacts writ large) that have soft value: effects that different people will rate and hold in higher personal esteem that don't directly translate to currency. These don't really have a fully objective value, beyond comparing the effects to the prices of similar effects. My sarcastic response to @Falmiis was intended to point out that it's still possible to estimate the approximate value an average player will assign to those effects though, or it would be impossible to put a price tag on purely convenience or flavor purchases. The Glamrock has purely aesthetic effects that appeal to different people differently, yet somehow it still has a price tag that adjusted to its value. You can't just throw up your hands because ~opinions~ and toss aside all discussion of value. Clearly, I don't really rate those kinds of things particularly high, especially not when you have to pay for effects you don't want to get them.
You're right, other people might see it as useful in a bashing context. Those people have incorrect opinions. The bashing utility is not worth the credits in the pure sense that the value of the gold you will generate does not outpace the value of the credits you spent for a long time. Gold is also dramatically less useful than credits, so this calculation involves you gambling on credit prices remaining stable or going down, which historically just isn't a winning bet. In the context of solo play, the crown doesn't make sense as a bashing artifact. It is pretty cost efficient in relative terms compared to purchasing combat artifacts, if you do a really significant part of your combat on Prime in resource-less non-traditional conflict areas. All the folks who might do that already have capped out what buffs they want, or will look to other artifacts to improve their combat ability in all areas.
Personally, my suggestion to address these artifacts in particular would be to reduce, remove, or split the buff effects, add in more flavor utility, and lower the price point. Do some of the things @Lerad suggested, and possibly offer reskins of the artifact to represent more benign 'mastery' for folks that might be squicked out by buying crowns of dominion. I personally think it's weird to be paying credits for VIP RP 'control' over an area and would side-eye the hell out of anyone who decides to loudly declare they are master of the kepheran hives because they have a fancy crown that casts illusions on the area (and 9% max more damage/resists in that area) and zaps people.
Things I really like about the crowns are the RP elements they threw in. Cause we are in desperate need for RP!
Personally, I kinda wish it was a bit more like the similar artifact in Aetolia that was mentioned recently, in that I'd be happy to buy "jewels" for the crown that can be inserted and then tuned to a specific buff in a specific zone.
Then I'd maybe justify getting my influence buffs in Lirangsha and the Chancel, the damage buffs for Icewynd, and then I could see picking up jewels every now and then for the enter/exit awareness etc. As a side benefit, it'd also just be one artifact in my inventory (that might end up fabulously bedazzled with jewels)
At the levels the crown offers that's 450 credits and it's available to them across the game and useful both in areas applicable to them as well as areas they'll venture into later on, they also have 300 credits left with which they could upgrade the purchased runes or invest in others such as their damage runes which again will maintain usefulness to them.
This would also mean that if their favoured location is taken, they can just go elsewhere without a drop in their available buffs.
The only thing I really do have a gripe witch is the 'fast teleport', esp. as you don't have to be -in- the area to teleport to someone, depending on how fast the teleport really is. I guess we'll have to see.
But at the same time, I don't really like paying money for something that's not really useful to me. Which is why I suggested using the building mechanic already used by Aetolia/Wonderitems in combination with a tuning option so that its a crown reflecting your mastery over aspects of the world. This way, I could get the influencing benefits in Lirangsha where I'd use them, potential bashing buffs in other places where I'd use those, and if i'm feeling nervous in an area I can tune the specs benefit in that area. (I'm of course suggesting that tuning would be a permanent option.) Kinda like a really customisable wonder item, using a more easily obtained currency.
We were told no during the discussion.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
--------(Item)-------(Description)----------------------------(Stock)-(Price)-
[Wearable Wonders]
crown268278: the Crown of the Kephera Hives 12 750cr
crown268283: the Crown of the Emanations 12 750cr
crown268290: the Crown of Flesh and Blood 12 750cr
crown268293: the Crown of the Icewynd 12 750cr
crown268295: the Crown of the Gutter 12 750cr
crown268304: the Crown of Lirangsha 12 750cr
crown268305: the Crown of the Chancel 12 750cr
crown268467: the Crown of Dionamus 12 750cr
crown268558: the Crown of the Illithoid Prison 12 750cr
crown268637: the Crown of the Catacombs 12 750cr
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.