My objection isn't changing the skills @lerad. What I'm saying is I'd like to implement a different kill method into the Moondancers before I take out their only reliable one. If the envoy system passes some of the above skills I'd be happy to remove sleeplock in a heart beat. However with every idea being shot down and people like @Synkarin and @CyndarinAscends pretty much saying "Not willing to add anything in until sleep is taken out" it's pretty much backs us into a corner.
You're basically saying destroy the guild for 3-6 months before anything will happen. That's great but I don't think that sounds reasonable for fair.
Yeah, it's basically the last thread all over again.
A concern I have is the comments about aeon when there's been comments from Ieptix and a pending envoy report up about it which seems to indicate aeon as well may be changing in the future. And, of course, without being able to have a complete solution in place we have the joy that after removing sleep, we might not actually get the fixes, not just whenever the envoy reports are implemented but ever.
I'm not sure why there needs to be an exclusivity to removing sleep and adding in a new strategy at the same time.
You can do that in the same report. And there actually hasn't been a report that actually did that - the closest that came to it was one that tried to make sleeplock exclusive from a new proposed kill method... although the solutions didn't actually make it exclusive. (There were other problems with that report too, but anyway)
I think it is very important to make sure that whatever is proposed is reasonable. You can't just say, "we're planning to remove sleeplock" and then propose a whole slew of problematic mechanics, just because the envoy system is slower than usual (and too slow usually anyway).
Or you can just sit back and wait till they destroy your skills like the Nihilists.
A simple fix that'll end up nerfing Dancer sleeplocks, and provide a starting point to move forward with changes, is simply change Hexes to not allow doublewhammying Sleep. That actually won't have a big impact on Nihilist sleeplock (which is better than Moondancer with darksilver demon) because the Hexen Nihilist isn't going for sleeplock pretty often without Aeon and the aforementioned darksilver.
Yes, I don't really see how you could reliably sleeplock someone without doublewhammy or aeon, but that's probably part of the problem. You are not going to fix Moondancers in one report or in one cycle with multiple reports. You have to take a stab at fixing something or just wait on the status quo and hope it doesn't bite you back.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
@Lerad the consistent message that I've seen whenever this comes up is "oh if you want to do anything then first you must remove prismatic and sleeplock", the demand is that the Moondancers nerf themselves (and potentially others) intentionally without the understanding you express that we can both do that while also getting a tangible benefit that isn't shutting up the people who are saying to remove things.
It's doubly frustrating because the main thing I see in these discussions is a group of people repeating the same thing constantly (i.e nerf yourselves and then we can talk) and the other side saying "Yes, we understand that those need to go"'
People suggest removing one kill method, while claiming it's fine because MDs have another, yet there's also talk about changing aeon which is involved in that method. Rather than actually participating in the purpose of this thread and contributing I see more than a few comments about the fact that the nerfs need to happen rather than what the moondancers might be like at the end of all of this, which would actually inform things such as what nerfs might happen.
For example, Full could end up being re-purposed into something else in the long run, this would also remove the prismatic concerns people have.
Well, let's backtrack a little. We all at least agree sleeplock needs to go, let's sketch out a design of what MDs should look like without it and figure out about how to go about reports later. If anything, I'll give up my slot some months to take on reports for you guys, provided there isn't anything pressing my guild needs, and I'm sure there's other envoys who would help out, like @Wobou, until the monk overhaul drops.
The meta has usually been debuff first. See: Night Choke, the first Pyromancy special report. Then, work from there to rebuff a kit (possibly with a new focus or mechanic). You have to let go of Full and sleeplocks first before the Moondancers can get a new edge.
The meta has usually been debuff first. See: Night Choke, the first Pyromancy special report. Then, work from there to rebuff a kit (possibly with a new focus or mechanic). You have to let go of Full and sleeplocks first before the Moondancers can get a new edge.
Usually. you've also not contributed anything whatsoever to the discussion other than a perfect example of the pointless posts that attempt to do nothing more that disrupt actual conversation regarding the issue.
Or, I've provided hard evidence to support the first issue in reworking MDs: that its strengths need to be brought in line first, before alternative routes to its kill condition can be explored. Now that that's been established, we can now talk about what the kit can give up in order to obtain new toys.
The biggest issue is probably Full. As most people, even Moondancers and Moon Serenguards, seem to be okay with reworking Full, the process becomes much easier. Would it be preferrable to scale back the ability's effects, or to simpy raise its costs? We'd have to keep in mind that counters to prismatic are probably more accessible now, with the Axelord changes.
Silvanus's suggestion re: no double sleep may be good; it has the bonus of basically nerfing sleeplocks across the board.
I also can use an envoy report or two if you need it. I am awaiting on a few Ecology reports (1366, 1372, 1470) but have nothing really on the agenda outside of an obscure octave report.
I am on the outside looking in and I actually enjoy the aeon mechanic, the only problem is when it becomes a group crutch mechanic similar to high strength/shieldstun became. I can understand the desire to move away from it, but I still think it'll be the best way to go for a toading solution, which I am sure is still the desired end goal of all Dancers.
Throwaway ideas to still use Toadcurse.
1. Figuring out a way to make Moon toadcurse to be an Ego requirement and invade Synkarin's turf, if possible
2. Change the way Full works to help you get a toadcurse by making the power requirement cheaper or something, removing the prismatic, perhaps adding some eq/bal bonus like Cosmic quicken but not as good since it still cures affs?
3. Change Waning entirely, I got nothing.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
In 1v1 with a decent curing system Aeonlock wouldn't work- so it's not a viable kill method. Even with anorexia/asthma. Wanings eq recovery time is 4 seconds. By the time you hit with aeon (to remove quicksilver), anoreixa/asthma, Aeon it's easily curable. So I completely disagree with your above statement.
It also comes in that without hexes- you can't fight as an MD
Astrology is still a thing.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Eh, you don't always have to nerf first and rebuild later, like I said, you can rework and do both at once. It gets more difficult the more complex it is, for good reason - large scale changes that affect more than one aspect is much harder to quantify and is not always a good idea. You can easily overbuff, or underbuff, or do something you never intended to in the first place. Many envoys, and non-envoys, are apprehensive of such approaches, and that's perfectly reasonable.
Doesn't mean you can't try, nor does it mean that the more cautious approach is invalid and disruptive. It is perfectly valid a stance to take.
Making toadcurse be an ego kill for MDs is not impossible - just need an ego-to-mana damage ability. Everything in the kit does ego damage, then something in the kit does something as simple as a mana/ego swap. Tada, ego toadcurse. I'm personally still not sure we really need to go this route, but hey, it's perfectly valid an idea. You could do some fun things with it beyond just mana/ego swapping, could even be a health/mana/ego roundrobin or something. Of course, simpler is probably better.
How to get to that stage is harder to figure out - my suggestion has been listed already: aff-unlocked mana (or ego) burst, and the need to work toward it by balancing mana (or ego) active drains with aff active bursts or something along those lines. Nerfing sleep can be something as simple as what Silvanus suggested: removing doublewhammy for sleep, or using Rivius' previous list of sleeplock requirements and repurposing those to something that helps the new strategy.
For example:
1) You have a beast with sleepcloud
2) You have a pixie timed
3) You double sleep and hope for a long wake timer <--- target this
4) You stuck aeon on the target <--- target this
5) You stick affs to block aeon curing
Change waning to an ability that costs no power, gives a random mental affliction from the mental pool, ramping up based on the target's current ego: 100%-85% = 1 aff, 65%-84% = 2 affs, <65% = 4 affs. Smart afflicting (doesn't give what they already have) optional.
Change doublewhammy to not be usable with sleep.
Change succumb to a ego burst active that does ego damage based on how many mental affs are on the target when cast: 0-1 = identical to Lash in Night (but ego damage instead of mana), 2-4 = double, >4 = quadruple.
Change Moon Full into the health/mana/ego roundrobin I suggested: no power cost, switches the current value of health to ego, ego to mana, mana to health. 1s eq cooldown, but can only be used on a target once every 15s (target immunity).
You get exponential scaling that is powerless, but which you can't do both at once. Supplements hexen, because their doublewhammies = 2 affs even when the target is >85% mana, once you get their mana low enough, waning becomes superior because of randomness and no power cost. Synergizes with moon dark and the passive mental affs. Punishes blind mashing without proper vitals/aff tracking because you end up not knowing which to use. Two MDs won't be able to instantkill a target because waning and succumb ramps up based on each other, so it takes time, so even if you have one do a waning and the other do a succumb, it won't do anything until they have had time to build up their offensive momentum.
Target can react because they can cure, hinder, fight defensively, or go full on offense race.
Sleeplock is dead because you lose aeon and you lose double sleep. Full is removed, toadcurse is ego. Has the additional effect of synergizing with other mana burst classes because Full will wipe their health if they have low mana too.
Checklist of followup:
- Tweak aff rate to be viable, adding or removing power costs and ego thresholds of waning/succumb as needed based on logs.
- Repurpose wiccan passive ents to support ego kill by changing mana pressure to ego pressure
- Repurpose wiccan passive ents to support mental affs by changing aff types
- Insert ego-centric or aff-centric synergies in astrology and healing
Generally, suggesting upgrades that create tradeoffs will be the next step to diversify and introduce strategies into the skillset. Could make crone convert the target's physical affs into mental affs, for example, allowing synergy with friendly warriors at the cost of curing their afflictions on the target and not doing anything when there are no warriors on your side.
On the same lines, you could create a healing ability that cures a target's bleed/bruise but drains their ego. Or petition/lobby whoever is working with the admin on the healing overhaul to put in consideration such measures which ties into your kill method.
Alternatively, keep the mana-centric abilities in moon or wiccan, and insert synergies in astro or healing that converts them into ego or mental aff pressure. For example, keep banshee doing mana damage, but add an astro skill that deals mental affs based on mana instead of ego. Has the additional aspect of adding astro synergy to SDs as well, which they will welcome. These will make it easier to justify picking up those skillsets in lieu of hexen.
Astrology already has basic support for ego pressure. Or any vital pressure, really. It just depends on the time For example, a negative Lion sphere can bring down ego by 3/10. A Papaxi ray can further push that down by another 5/10. (Can't remember the numbers exactly, I could be off by 1). Astrology is nice like that.
@Saran - the only one being unconstructive is you. If you don't want to contribute other than to complain about having to work within the confines of the envoy system and what kind of changes it's going to take, then don't post. This discussion has literally zero impact on you because you don't ever fight and thus will not be affected one way or the other by the changes that are introduced.
Changes can be introduced the same time, but it's going to need to come with the removal of sleeplock as well. And it's going to need to be incremental changes. Asking for mechanics that lead up to a 60% mana drain (or whatever that was) is just nuts. Make a report, remove sleeplock, and add in lunacy. When that gets coded in, play with it for awhile, see what more is needed, and then make another report. This isn't rocket science, this is pragmatism.
Look, I get it. Bitching at me for not going along with your demands is futile, but that doesn't mean I don't empathize with the issue
I personally don't get all this rage directed at me over my positions on MDs, as I have been the most visible PKer advocating for changes to Wiccans in the past 5 RL years or more. As I said, there's a post floating around forums with the response from different administrators regarding the (former) state of Wiccans and their dated mechanics.
As the active SD envoy at the time, twist was forced on me for better or for worse. It's 5 throw away levels, limited aeon access, and 1 good final burst. It's not my design, it's not how I would have addressed SDs after choke, but it's what I had to work with and I made the best of it (it's not a bad skill, it's just a lot of bland filler for the sake of being filler).
Following the twist change, I initiated several reports to introduce incremental changes to the SDs to accommodate the void left behind in the absence of choke. Small bleeding upgrades to barghest and the redcap to pressure mana where as previously bleed was simply an attrition method to be used with choke. Scourge was given a mechanic outside of blind since blind outside of choke was a now defunct mechanic. I even addressed the champ pet and took out things like blacklung that did nothing outside of choke and added in bleeds and blackouts that brought him in line with the Grim Horror, Handmaiden, etc.
I've also initiated reports that directly benefit the MDs, such as reducing the fae tic from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. You're welcome.
For better or for worse (Shuyin gave SDs a good skill to work with overall), you don't have a third party special envoy creating mechanics for your class and handing it off to you to address every other skill in their kit affected by it. This is your reality. The admin have bigger fish to fry than an MD special report. Rail against it as much as you like, but in the end, this remains your reality.
As a general rule of thumb, it is better to underbuff than overbuff. Overbuffing potentially punishes every player you come into PK contact with, underbuffing affects only you and your guild. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few etc etc etc. This is not just a philosophy I preach, it is one I try to practice. Do you think MDs are the only ones in a crappy 1v1 state right now? I challenge you to kill as a pyromancer 1v1 against an equally buffed opponent. Telepathy/psychicvampirism has been trashed into uselessness, TK has never really found its equilibrium since the burst math changes many months back, and burns/cremate haven't been possible since the overhaul. Don't even get me started on the chems mechanics. Yet this is still better for the health of the game than roving PK monsters with broken mechanics murdering people into frustrated rage qq's, and I'm happy to introduce reports and receive feedback on these issues month over month. I've got a pending TK report to try and address bursts, and worked with Ieptix, Rivius, and other envoys to resolve the burns thing that will hopefully be released in the next round of overhaul changes (if it hasn't been already, I haven't checked). Part of that was pyromancers specifically taking a nerf that didn't previously exist, in that burns and wounds will cure simultaneously. So the nerf/buff thing is 100% possible.
So...welcome to the club, you'll get your fruit basket in 5-7 business days.
In this case, the mechanics I've seen proposed can stack with sleeplocks, and I'm not comfortable with them coexisting. Period. If you can suggest something that cannot be used with sleeplocks (like every actions does 50 damage and wakes you up. IDK) then I could probably be persuaded to let it co exist with sleeplocks. I don't think that will get you the best long term results, but that's ultimately up to you if your minimum requirement is not deleting sleep lock until you have an alternative.
As an envoy, I do not accept IOUs. I do not think that benefits the game, I do not think that is in the best interests of the process or the players.
Finally....
Moving forward, I don't have any ideas for you. I'm not hyper creative in this department. If you want to complain at me and about me over not offering you solutions, that's your prerogative, but I will continue to not have a good idea until I have a good idea. When that happens, I'll let you know. Ultimately, envoying for the MDs is not my job. My job is to envoy for the Pyromancers, and to give feedback on reports provided by other envoys in the context of the greater game. In this, both Synkarin and I have done our jobs. The MD envoy has provided reports, we have offered feedback based on our own perspective and within the context of the larger game. Disagreeing with our positions, even though I specifically have given robust answers for my reasoning in every report, is not license to take shots at us over forums for just doing what we are supposed to be doing.
I make no apologies for doing what I think is best within the envoy system. For all of its flaws, it has been shown to work in the long run when allowed to function as intended. By consensus and debate with neutral oversight and final decisions.
My plan with making this post was to get those people who -feel like- coming up with ideas and -like- coming up with ideas and trying to get a rough concept together to get a mechanic out of the game that many people seem to dislike ( I've heard prominent names on both sides complain on anything relating aeon/sleeplock combinations ). Once we had something that sounded actually good, I would've tried to make a separate post to try to see what we need to do so we could get those things into envoy reports and how to combine them so our envoy ( if he also liked it ) would have something to work with for the big picture.
Why did I go for this? For a while now, while people seem to want the change, no one seems to have a strategy how to get the change. I didn't count on any that was brought up, even if there were some people who would like to put their heads together to think something up, would get itself implemented in the next half year. As was said, there's bigger fish to fry and probably will be for a while. I was also fully aware that whatever we would come up with could possibly be dismissed entirely. But, would I've just asked a couple of MD and possible SD players, whatever would've came out would have a higher chance of being dismissed, here's a chance that the one or other envoy feels like contributing a little here and there will also give their thoughts. What I tried to achieve was what the topic said: A brainstorming of possible ideas. As a sidenote, I also expected to find not many interested and that's alright. It's not everybodys cup of tea to try to think something up out of the blue. It was worth a try.
That being said, I want to ask if there's any point in continuing this road, for I personally think that the idea @Rivius and @Lerad came up with could possibly have merit, but that's not for me to decide. Let's make a concept of this first and worry about how we're going to get it implemented later? and if it takes a year to get there, so what?
Also, a heartfelt thank you for all of you who contributed constructively to this idea so far, be it with valid criticism, ideas or encouragement.
As an aside, doublewhammy sleep isn't the only way to achieve a sleeplock btw. Astrologists and Healers can both hit sleeplocks as well, they just don't have the same kind of locking power that hexes does.
Pixie/beastsleep/sleep enchant will achieve the same sleep combo as beastsleep/doublewhammy sleep. Removing sleep from doublewhammy only serves to make it harder to get a sleeplock, not eliminate the possibility of getting it.
As a note, you don't need to make something from nothing. It seems like you guys are on this kick rework everything and the kitchen sink plus adding a new mechanic with "lunacy."
That's not how I'd approach it. I'd say start with succumb and work from there. It's unique, it is a critical part of your kill condition, and now aff stacking is a viable strategy worth exploring. Maybe adding a modifier based on spirit affs or mental affs or something. Add in methods to extend the succumb cure delays. Things like that.
So an example would be...
Step 1) remove sleeplock as a mechanic.
Step 2) Report adding a small modifier to succumb based on number of mental affs present on the target.
Step 3) Report changing how (whatever moon fae works) so they build a single charge of moon power every attack, and on the fifth charge they moonbeam magic the target for 500 mana drain.
Step 4) Change full from a barrier to a defense that rebounds with mental afflictions when attacked with damage.
You get the idea. Incremental changes to build on existing foundations.
Just not the 50% a tic dark proposal from some months back.
Of course, the proposed idea is not the only way to go about it.
With working with succumb right now, would require to change it to not be cured with just a reishi mushroom though, or at least finding a way to stick it, which is why sleeplock is a thing. So, we would possibly need to change succumb to be a burst mechanic (modified by mental afflictions ? ).
I actually think that the MD version of the pixie would be a good start for changing, as it gives sleep and will be completely without any use as soon as we start moving away from sleeplock.
@Synkarin sorry, not sure what you mean with delayed cure?
This is how succumb works right now if there's nothing to stick it's curing:
Whispering to herself, Aeldra points at you and a silver light flashes across your field of vision. You are afflicted with succumb. lrxkb<>-(eat reishi|outr reishi)(-1571m, 15.3%) You eat a reishi mushroom. lrxkb<>- You remove 1 reishi, bringing the total in the rift to 488. lrxkb<>- You may eat or smoke another herb. lrxkb<>- The majesty of Mother Moon fades from your mind. You have cured succumb. (2.181s)
Well, the question is, should we move succumb to one of the overhaul cures? Or should we make it a time-based aff and adjust it to scale up on something?
In regards to addressing sleeplock, should the angle be from removing aeon, or should aeon stay in the skillset and sleep be eliminated elsewhere?
I think the best (and easiest) move would be to just make metawake unable to be forced off. It might mess with DW's and others, but they can be adjusted as well. Sleeplocking is a boring mechanic that doesn't really rely on any skill, just lucky tics.
Move succumb over. I dislike that we're doing this overhaul to streamline things, but then there are exceptions like succumb which stayed on the old system.
I'd like to say move it to steam, since there is a lack of spiritual affs (especially since aurics are bard-only). But aeon's there, too, which might make it awkward.
The thing about keeping succumb as a curable affliction is we'll probably need to work out a way for an MD to prevent it being cured to an extent that they can get a toadcurse off. Right now, waning's eq is about 4 seconds long, which means that without sleeplock, it's hard to follow up on it to provide a long enough lock for succumb to do its thing. And then you need to wane twice to get around quicksilver in the first place.
Changing metawake will not functionally affect Dreamweavers.
EDIT: To be more clear - the new dreamweavers do not focus on sleeplocks, and it will be far more tricky to use or captilize on sleep tactics. To the point where a change that makes metawake unforceable or otherwise stronger (perhaps requiring that the person be on bal/eq to toggle it off) will not impact any core strategies. The passive sleep tick will go away, meaning that the only way for a dreamweaver to triple sleep will involve using induce to ORDER SLEEP after a beastspit/sleepcloud, followed by a slumber attack. So, they won't be able to order metawake off and sleep combo at the same time anyways!
So, no worries from that angle if metawake needs a change. It's actually something I suggested to Rivius yesterday when we were spitballing, I'm all for it. Outside of the Moondancers, all of the proper sleeplocks are just about dead. The only one left is symphonists, who can't turn off metawake to get a real sleeplock either.
Comments
Yeah, it's basically the last thread all over again.
A concern I have is the comments about aeon when there's been comments from Ieptix and a pending envoy report up about it which seems to indicate aeon as well may be changing in the future. And, of course, without being able to have a complete solution in place we have the joy that after removing sleep, we might not actually get the fixes, not just whenever the envoy reports are implemented but ever.
It's doubly frustrating because the main thing I see in these discussions is a group of people repeating the same thing constantly (i.e nerf yourselves and then we can talk) and the other side saying "Yes, we understand that those need to go"'
People suggest removing one kill method, while claiming it's fine because MDs have another, yet there's also talk about changing aeon which is involved in that method. Rather than actually participating in the purpose of this thread and contributing I see more than a few comments about the fact that the nerfs need to happen rather than what the moondancers might be like at the end of all of this, which would actually inform things such as what nerfs might happen.
For example, Full could end up being re-purposed into something else in the long run, this would also remove the prismatic concerns people have.
Why did I go for this? For a while now, while people seem to want the change, no one seems to have a strategy how to get the change. I didn't count on any that was brought up, even if there were some people who would like to put their heads together to think something up, would get itself implemented in the next half year. As was said, there's bigger fish to fry and probably will be for a while. I was also fully aware that whatever we would come up with could possibly be dismissed entirely. But, would I've just asked a couple of MD and possible SD players, whatever would've came out would have a higher chance of being dismissed, here's a chance that the one or other envoy feels like contributing a little here and there will also give their thoughts. What I tried to achieve was what the topic said: A brainstorming of possible ideas. As a sidenote, I also expected to find not many interested and that's alright. It's not everybodys cup of tea to try to think something up out of the blue. It was worth a try.
That being said, I want to ask if there's any point in continuing this road, for I personally think that the idea @Rivius and @Lerad came up with could possibly have merit, but that's not for me to decide. Let's make a concept of this first and worry about how we're going to get it implemented later? and if it takes a year to get there, so what?
Also, a heartfelt thank you for all of you who contributed constructively to this idea so far, be it with valid criticism, ideas or encouragement.
With working with succumb right now, would require to change it to not be cured with just a reishi mushroom though, or at least finding a way to stick it, which is why sleeplock is a thing. So, we would possibly need to change succumb to be a burst mechanic (modified by mental afflictions ? ).
I actually think that the MD version of the pixie would be a good start for changing, as it gives sleep and will be completely without any use as soon as we start moving away from sleeplock.
This is how succumb works right now if there's nothing to stick it's curing:
Whispering to herself, Aeldra points at you and a silver light flashes across your field of vision.
You are afflicted with succumb.
lrxkb<>-(eat reishi|outr reishi)(-1571m, 15.3%)
You eat a reishi mushroom.
lrxkb<>-
You remove 1 reishi, bringing the total in the rift to 488.
lrxkb<>-
You may eat or smoke another herb.
lrxkb<>-
The majesty of Mother Moon fades from your mind.
You have cured succumb. (2.181s)