Should Arts have an AGREE command for individuals being "recorded"?

Tully

Figured we could do deeper discussion here.

Some people just started a Facebook thread thinking that you should not be able to use ARTS related commands (sketch, paint, sculpt) on people without the subject typing in AGREE.

Is this really a major issue?  I've heard two forms of arguments about this.  The first seems to be people who are offended they get sketched and their figurine gets sold by the creator for 50k or whatever the price is, so they kind of want a royalty.  The second argument is that it's personally annoying, that people are "playing" with their figurines or whatever in private--but that seems to be something that may have always been the case--you could use them in figurine battles, for instance.

Is this something new or something that's been bubbling under for a while?  Would people like an artifact that prevented a person from using arts related commands to capture your image?

Shaddus

I think if a person has to ask my permission to pierce my ears, they have to ask permission to paint or sketch me.

Shaddus

(btw if someone is charging 50k for a figurine of a person you can see almost any time, just don't buy it)

Kialkarkea

It's a bit of a difference though. One is you actively having something done to you, the other is you just kind of being in the area and getting observed. It doesn't seem like a big deal for me.

Dys

Unlike in real life, in Lusternia you can kill paparazzi.

Tully

Not to mention, if people are offended by being exhibited in a painting--wouldn't the creation of trophy's or totems or ears offend more?  After all, it's your head on a stick or mounted on a wall.  I'm just flabbergasted by it suddenly being a huge issue now when these have been in the game within a year of its creation.

Regarding the figurine pricing--Isn't the price of figurines now being based on the amount of pre-existing esteem rather than the subject?  (In the past, they were either moderately priced or they were at 9.999 million as a permanent storage facility).

Daraius

Cracking down on Lusternian paparazzi? Sounds like a non-issue to me, but I can kind of understand the 'wanting a royalty' opinion. Descriptions are about equivalent to a trade design in terms of writing, so selling another person's image is a little like selling their work as your own? I can't imagine it happens all that often, but then again I'm not really active at the moment.

Eritheyl

Tully said:

Not to mention, if people are offended by being exhibited in a painting--wouldn't the creation of trophy's or totems or ears offend more?  After all, it's your head on a stick or mounted on a wall.  I'm just flabbergasted by it suddenly being a huge issue now when these have been in the game within a year of its creation.

Regarding the figurine pricing--Isn't the price of figurines now being based on the amount of pre-existing esteem rather than the subject?  (In the past, they were either moderately priced or they were at 9.999 million as a permanent storage facility).

I don't think the issue is a 'huge' as you're making it out to be, it was just a Facebook thread with a handful of people venting. But the artifact doesn't sound like a terrible idea, I think it would be sort of fun.

Ssaliss

Frankly, I don't think this needs an AGREE syntax. I personally consider it extremely rude when people walk up to me and get a sketch of me without asking first, but it's a matter that's entirely possible to bring up ICly.

Llandros

Sketching or painting somone without their permission is rude but doesn't actually affect you. Putting a hole in your ear is a material change they have made to your person. Seems to be a pretty significant difference.

Eritheyl

Oh, here's another thought. What if it was made impossible to sketch/paint/etc. people while they're shrouded or invisible? That would make a lot of sense. Though...they can still be LOOKed at, so maybe...I don't know. Just tossing ideas out there.

Pectus

I started the whole thing after having an alt repeatedly spam-painted by two people she didn't even know in the aetherplex, while just passing through or shopping, only to see figurines, sketches and paintings suddenly in a shop of her. It has nothing to do with a royalty aspect, really. More of it feels invasive. I have to type agree to get something pierced (Like Shaddus said), so even if it's just a config thing, I'd still like to see there being a way of stopping people from making thousands of figurines of you to sell, without even asking you or really even letting you know it's happening.

It wasn't supposed to be such a big issue anyway. I was just hoping for a nice discussion over the pros and cons of an agree command on it, and suddenly everyone was getting mad and defensive.

Tully

I wasn't getting mad, in fact I started this thread so the admin could see it, and that we could debate pros and cons more civilly.  I probably should have made the subject less biased however.  (Oh cool, you can change the subject line, great!  Did that.  :-bd)

I guess I myself have a knee-jerk reaction to removing things that have nothing to do with combat.  I've seen people in the past say we should get rid of the shout command, for instance, based on what one or two people have done, or just because it irritates one or two players--and especially since there's a SHOUTSOFF command.  Magic mouth, for instance, or Illusionary Script, can be annoying but the player-base has self-regulated that somewhat, but it can still be useful and I wouldn't want them removed.  

But I do agree with the general assessment that you should ask usually before sketching.  I'm just a little bit curious how somebody else painting and selling your likeness would be really annoying--I'd think most people would be flattered instead.

Xenthos

I would be incredibly annoyed if someone walked up to me, snapped a picture of me, and started offering to sell it for money in the grocery store / on television / on the radio.

Just because it's happening in-game instead of IRL doesn't really make a difference in that sense.

People really don't like paparazzi much, you know.  Text paparazzi vs. real ones doesn't make a huge difference.

That's not really an argument for a "mechanics change," but telling people that because you'd be flattered someone wanted to stalk you and sell your likeness / image without even talking to you first, they should be as well... just doesn't make sense.

Tully

Xenthos, are you talking about your character or yourself, because they are two different things.  I am not Tully IRL, and you are not Xenthos IRL.  Lusternia is not Modern Day Earth and things like Paparazzi, Stalkers, and the like don't really apply here--or royalties for character portraits or figurines--your description is pretty static and it's really not the same as being photographed in secret wherever you go or trying to have a private life.  (In fact, if a player truly behaved like a "stalker" I think that would be issuable as that's the kind of thing that creeps people out and goes beyond the entertainment of Lusternia).  I simply don't see a valid analogy here, at best it should only be a minor annoyance if any.

In all the years I've been playing, this has never come up--I think in fact most people are just drawing things that are really convenient--I don't see a lot of arts RP, people just sculpt what they can--which is why you end up seeing so many statues in a village of chickens or the local populace.  I've only had a few people complain about being sketched or captured in my 7 years here--most people are flattered, and I try to respect those that aren't once I know.  Are people really thinking somebody selling a dozen figurines of a character = real world stalking?  I see it as somebody really thought you were a good subject (or they are "meh" and just painting the easiest target) and wanted to make it.  

Xenthos

I'm talking about myself; I'm incredibly annoyed by someone doing this to me, and I'm also annoyed by you telling me that I should be flattered by it instead (actually, even more so).

Tully

As a character or player?  I'm not telling you how to feel, but I think we're not communicating clearly.  

Xenthos

Tully said:

As a character or player?  I'm not telling you how to feel, but I think we're communication.

As a player.  The person in question is going out and making these things specifically to be a nuisance.  The person is pricing them so that nobody will buy them except anyone who is angry that she is doing this; she's intentionally jacking up the price to take advantage of OOC distaste / disgust for her actions.

Xenthos

And then you're here saying we should be happy she's doing so, and disagreeing with any post that doesn't go along with that world view.

Lavinya

There's a difference between 'Oh, may I paint you? You are a remarkable figure that I just have to replicate' (flattering) and 'paint/sculpt hehee sell figurine for 50k oh you didn't want me to paint you? Oh well.' (rude).

It irritated the jimmies out of Lavinya every time she saw her horribly overpriced and unauthorised figurine for sale. I'd be happy if there was a way to say no and mean no that made these 'papparazzi' actually have to roleplay and ask people and find willing models, instead of nabbing and running with literally zero the target can do about it. It's an irritation that could be removed.

Tully

Then that should have been made more clear in the discussion.  This is the first time anybody in the thread said anything about it being a specific player vs. player OOC issue, and it's kind of shocking to me since this mechanic has existed for ages, the only recent addition being the offerings changes.  

Moi

My solution: Make sketching, painting, sculpting, etc. a 12 second channeled action. If you don't want sketched, move and they won't complete the sketch.

Xenthos

From the comments in the Facebook thread, I had thought it was relatively clear that there was more to it than just an IC annoyance; it's completely based around metagame and taking advantage of players' annoyance and frustration, which exacerbates the feelings and makes the players even more put out.

Then defending it... well, it doesn't go over well!  Heh.

Xenthos

Iytha said:

My solution: Make sketching, painting, sculpting, etc. a 12 second channeled action. If you don't want sketched, move and they won't complete the sketch.

I like this!

Pectus

The mechanic has existed for ages, yes. But until the new changes came out, there was little to no point yo sculpt figurines. And now there is one.

Lavinya

Tully said:

Then that should have been made more clear in the discussion.  This is the first time anybody in the thread said anything about it being a specific player vs. player OOC issue, and it's kind of shocking to me since this mechanic has existed for ages, the only recent addition being the offerings changes.  

Wow the facebook thread exploded when I wasn't looking. I would have said the same thing there too!

Enyalida

I agree with the channeled action thing!

Personally, I wish paintings and scuptures could be made of things that weren't already extant in the game. I can carry around a picture of x person (via the arts skill), or I can write in my journal a shockingly exact and perfect accounting of what they look like, and just emote having a painting. That second option costs me (the player) exactly nothing, you get a journal at the start of the game and don't need to spend credits/lessons to copy/paste. The arts skillset would be much much more interesting (to me) if it allowed you to actually create works of art, instead of being a copy paste location/person/item skill. 

/end rant

Tacita

Love the channelled action idea.

Pectus

Forget my agree idea. I like Iytha's waaayy better.

Tully

I see people mentioned on FB all the time but sometimes it can come across as rant.  I reacted mostly because I saw people treating IG painting as equivalent to real-world stalking, which I've seen others experience and without this context, I felt it was taking gameplay way too seriously and trivializing something much more serious.

Actually I agree with channeled action as well, as it doesn't remove the skill.  Only drawback is that it might affect sculpting statues which is a combat thing where time is off the essence.  It would also not work if the person decided to do this while the person was occupied in combat with another, or if the subject is AFK, though both are minor problems.

Xenthos

Don't AFK at the Nexus.