Would the Maeve be upset if the snowmen of Frosticia were suddenly wiped out? Or would it be like news from a death among mortal cityfolk?
It's likely she'd respond that way, yes. She might tighten up Faethorn's defenses if whatever killed the iceborne are specifically targetting fae creatures, but she probably wouldn't care too much. The same way lobos don't really shed too many tears when they see dead wolves. They're similar in make and perhaps mettle, but they aren't the same.
edit: just realized I didn't respond to your first question. Allies could work! Who knows with Maeve, though. She's a wildcard on purpose.
This distinction between forests and nature has lead to some confusion in the past as some joining Serenwilde, at least, think we're connected to all of nature.
Which is apparently still the case, and does I guess beg the question of whether or not maybe that's a limitation that's resulting in the sameness. If Maeve (or a series of them) encompassed all of nature rather than just the forests then things might be significantly different. (if it were in the original doc then the communes could have been completely different aspects of nature)
Perhaps connecting all of nature into Maeve (or another collective) could be a goal for the Wilde, where the wyrd seeks to absorb and convert everything into its shape, Serenwilde seeks only connection, bonding with the many varied shapes that nature has and sharing with them the power to defend themselves.
Generally, I don't think the distinction is really that big a deal. It's semantically important, and in some cases, technically as well, but in effect, there aren't really that many cases where Serenwilde or its outsiders care much that forests/Maeve =/= nature as a whole.
The Maeve isn't Nature per se, but in Lusternian context, the forests are so rich in essence that they are reflected as whole areas in the Ethereal plane whereas other areas, mountains, caves, seas, are given token manifestations. Serenwilde could well brand themselves as the protectors of nature, and no one would bat an eye. People could (mistakenly) claim that an attack on the Maeve/Serenwilde is an assault on the whole of Nature, and objections would be negligible in the grand scheme of things.
The Maeve is one of the few, if not the only, "Collective Spirit" of spirits (or fae), and those lesser ones, the fae, are generally considered part of nature. So. Even if she's not the collective of ALL of nature, she's... pretty much the highest ranking sentient representative.
I won't go too much on where I think Serenwilde should proceed with their identity (1, it's not this topic, 2, it's none of my business as an outsider) but I don't think you really need to reinvent everything to do with the Maeve to find your org's own niche. Perhaps distance yourself from her, and roll with something else, but I don't think you neccesarily need to chain yourself to the specifics of what the Maeve is, or isn't.
How many chances to we get to know what the hard stance even is? It's such an enigmatic concept, and unique among fantasy tropes I'm familiar with. It's fascinating. My personal questions about Seren are in another thread entirely. This is a thread about Maeve.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
My view has been (based on what I've read plus what people have told me) that the forests and the forest fae are one. And in turn, attacking the physical forest results in the death of those fae.
Further, because the Maeve is the collective spirit of all forest Fae, their deaths weaken her because there is less collective strength for her to draw on.
This isn't noticeable in the short-term, fae die and are born all the time, just like the death of an individual deer doesn't really weaken the White Hart, but if all deer died then I would expect that the White Harts existence might be threatened, and if a significant portion of them died all at once then he would be weakened at least.
Translating to the forest, destroying/disconnecting a forest from the Maeve doesn't just remove them from her, it removes the power they were sharing with her. If only one forest were connected to the Maeve, it seems likely that she might not serve much of a purpose because she can only bolster the forest using their own power.
One line of reasoning that might support this is what's happened to nature over the years. We have a defensive protection that helped fight off the soulless and seems to have successfully ensured that the forests remained relatively unscathed through the Elder and Vernal wars.
At some point Jojobo appears to have distanced/disconnected from Faethorn, I'm not sure if this was after Sun was corrupted or if that came later. But this could mean the strength of the Maeve was reduced by a quarter.
We later have the Nature Wars which are perhaps notable here because the weapon used to harm Serenwilde was elemental fire, which is connected to nature and likely a weapon the Soulless would not be able to use as easily.
Then during the taint wars, we have Earth spewing forth the taint which seems likely to be impacting Faethorn through their connection but my impression is that at that point Gloriana was still fine, likely protected by Maeve. Though a possible important connection is again that the taint at this point is linked to an Elemental energy.
Then Hallifax uses their magic to blow the taint spreading northward towards Gloriana, which concentrated the taint and helped it to breach the forests defences. Shortly after Faethorn was probably sent into disarray as two of the Elements were ripped out of time and disconnected from the court. (Perhaps somewhat similar to what happened when they returned, perhaps the reverse?)
Then Ackleberry does whatever it did, possibly reducing her strength to half of what it originally was because she now only has two forests to draw strength from. Again, this might be reflected in the severed physical connection to faethorn.
To me, it makes sense that Maeve is weakened, that she is less able to shield herself and in turn the forests because she just doesn't have the power available to her any more.
In turn, this reflects why the forests might not feel as much like the protected lands they might have been when the Maeve was at the height of her power. Why Maeve can't reject the Wyrd (it currently composes half of her). And offers both forests a path forward in trying to sway her to their side by increasing their contribution to her collective strength.
The wyrd spreading means more fae subject to the wyrd and in turn subject to Maeve, similarly Serenwilde spreading its borders or bringing more types of fae under its shelter also offers more strength to the Maeve.
hum, I kinda just kept rambling I'll probably stop for now.
I've always just viewed the relationship between Maeve and the other fae spirits like the Rings of Power in Tolkien lore.
There were many magic rings made, but the greatest were the Three, Seven, and Nine. Initially, those 19 had their own powers and acted independently, but when the One was made, they were bound to it in such a way that the destruction of the One would mean the loss of the powers of the 19, but individually, the loss of one of the 19 wouldn't affect the power of the One Ring.
Sub the magic rings with the regular fae, the 19 rings as the forest fae, and the One as Maeve.
I've always just viewed the relationship between Maeve and the other fae spirits like the Rings of Power in Tolkien lore.
There were many magic rings made, but the greatest were the Three, Seven, and Nine. Initially, those 19 had their own powers and acted independently, but when the One was made, they were bound to it in such a way that the destruction of the One would mean the loss of the powers of the 19, but individually, the loss of one of the 19 wouldn't affect the power of the One Ring.
Sub the magic rings with the regular fae, the 19 rings as the forest fae, and the One as Maeve.
I disagree to an extent.
Maeve really wouldn't be anything without all of the Fae that are part of her. If there aren't any Fae then it makes no sense that she could continue to exist and afaik we are aware that she changes based on significant changes to the forests.
Yes, because she's bound to all the forests, her death means our death. But the reverse seems very likely to be true as well, just seems easier to attack Maeve.
Wait, sorry -- isn't Maeve a smob that can be killed after arduous amounts of questing to bring the Elemental planes to supremacy?
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Yes, Maeve can be killed, as can all fae. But destroyed? That's something else entirely. The Maeve can't be destroyed so easily (though that possibility was seriously considered by the elder gods when she started to go loopy). My limited understanding is that fae whose bodies are killed are sort of reborn (through the Well of Souls?), and that includes the Maeve.
@Saran's explanation of the losses of the different forests,weakening the Maeve, actually makes sense to me in explaining why the Maeve currently needs both the Serenwilde and the Glomdoring--she needs every bit of strength she can get, even if she has to get some from the wyrden woods.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I don't think that's how the relationships between the forest and the Maeve actually work - but we'll need an admin to step in to confirm it - what this thread is about, basically.
I've never come across any lore or implication in events that pointed to the Maeve growing stronger when the Wyrd was spread or from civilization returning to the Wilde, and similarly, the other way around.
Injuring the fae does, however, have an effect on the Maeve - but the Wyrd, and the Glomdoring, is not the fae, and therefore, not the Maeve. At least, that's my understanding.
Go with what you already know. I'm not going to reveal all of my mysteries!
So far, we know that Queen Maeve:
- can be damaged -- see brand.
- can exist in multiple planes -- see Dame Maeve
- needs to be whole in order to maintain power -- see most recent event
- is connected to the natural world inextricably, and Bad Things shall befall the world if she is suddenly no longer connected -- again, see the most recent event.
What we do not know:
- whether the communes truly impact her. There are a handful of events that suggest they do, but the depth remains to be unseen.
- whether she can be "unmade" -- there were several IG discussions held between the Elder Gods regarding this topic, and the conclusion was ... uncertainty
- how far her reach extends -- what other facets of nature does Maeve influence? Control outright?
The speculations you all make are fabulous. It's what drives us to keep producing ideas around this niche concept. What's more, like we've said a few thousand times, your ideas sometimes germinate into lore. I can't tell you how many times ideas are wholesale lifted from player speculation.
I don't think that's how the relationships between the forest and the Maeve actually work - but we'll need an admin to step in to confirm it - what this thread is about, basically.
I've never come across any lore or implication in events that pointed to the Maeve growing stronger when the Wyrd was spread or from civilization returning to the Wilde, and similarly, the other way around.
Injuring the fae does, however, have an effect on the Maeve - but the Wyrd, and the Glomdoring, is not the fae, and therefore, not the Maeve. At least, that's my understanding.
I think maybe Kalodan way back in the day was one of the people that really lectured about the fae being part of nature, that they're not just ephemeral things floating around but that a lot of them are actually the trees, the flowers, the rivers, etc. Part of the Cairns quest in Serenwilde has you talking to the dryads of specific trees that are growing there. They are an inseparable part of the forests, Maeve was made by taking them and combining them with Lesser Fae from other forests, but they're still there still part of us. Maybe in times of need they're redistributed where they might be needed more, but ultimately things mostly stay the same.
The Tah'vrai is admittedly weird, but I think I interpret it more as the transfer of fae strength between forests and that the bulk of the fae mostly stay within their own lands until called elsewhere, I suppose an example might be the Naiad of Moon Lake, she is a lesser fae and so would have been bound to the Maeve but I also can't imagine her fulfilling a Tah'vrai to Glomdoring any time soon, but maybe she would have served previously when the need was dire.
And so it's kinda a chain, injuring the forest injures the fae that are connected to it, which means in turn injuring the Maeve. It's also part of why the cities are so disgusting, because Celest didn't just rebuild, it destroyed the natural ecosystem on the land they now stand and in doing so killed the fae that were part of that place. But if we could tear down some place that has received such treatment, rejuvenate the land and bring back the natural cycles that were there, then in turn new fae might be born. More esoteric fae are more difficult obviously, but would come in time. (It's easy to grow a bluebell, foxglove, or snoefaasia but it's a bit more difficult to provide the circumstances through which a leprechaun might be reborn but in time it will likely happen naturally.)
My biggest issue with Maeve is she suffers from Crow syndrome, in that events generally just tend to make her look terrible. Whether she's getting enslaved by demonlords, getting violently ill, or turns into a bumbling, crying mess over any given thing, she generally comes across as kind of an embarrassing forest super power that defines the existence of both Communes.
This is less a comment on the lore, and more how the lore is portrayed, and why communes generally (in my experience) groan and sigh when a Maeve event rolls around. She's the supreme natural power, the foundation upon which both forests exist, and....oh she's crying again. And she's crazy. Maeve's defining trait is that she's a hot mess. She's a wasted drunk sorority in ugg boots crying on the frat house lawn, and the forests are her sorority sisters holding her hair back while she pukes.
Are there any notes regarding her personality or what her defining qualities are supposed to be?
My biggest issue with Maeve is she suffers from Crow syndrome, in that events generally just tend to make her look terrible. Whether she's getting enslaved by demonlords, getting violently ill, or turns into a bumbling, crying mess over any given thing, she generally comes across as kind of an embarrassing forest super power that defines the existence of both Communes.
This is less a comment on the lore, and more how the lore is portrayed, and why communes generally (in my experience) groan and sigh when a Maeve event rolls around. She's the supreme natural power, the foundation upon which both forests exist, and....oh she's crying again. And she's crazy. Maeve's defining trait is that she's a hot mess. She's a wasted drunk sorority in ugg boots crying on the frat house lawn, and the forests are her sorority sisters holding her hair back while she pukes.
Are there any notes regarding her personality or what her defining qualities are supposed to be?
I feel the same way about Maeve, mind you I missed several years of events in which she probably had a large part in, but she's always come off as super bipolar and not in a good way. Due to this I have such a hard time taking her seriously, and I imagine I'm not the only one, for all we have to work with her.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
I don't recall if there are any logs of the last event on the forums (or lurking around elsewhere), but we made a concerted effort during the event to show that Maeve is not always a hot mess. She is a hot mess, but she is first and foremost a Queen. I love Maeve, and think she is capable of being pretty badass - and I actually think this is in part due to her messiness.
I think it is important to remember a few things, regarding her messiness: firstly, she is the collective consciousness of a LOT of beings. That isn't really the basis for being a paragon of sanity, at least not the sort of personality that you would see in a mortal. Secondly, Maeve has been through some serious awfulness - for example, Laeroc's death, and then seeing Dame Maeve's version of Laeroc (who had the most incredible, gruesome description that I hope lots of people got to see - @Lisaera's creativity is terrifying on all manner of levels).
Yes, she can be a bumbling, crying mess. But she also rules over Faethorn, has endured a lot of trials that would have destroyed most mortals, and in the face of her true love's evil counterpart stood her ground and refused to buckle to his intimidation.
(I am using the last event as an example as it is the Maeve event that I have been involved with from an administrative POV, but I am sure others can think of examples from other events where she was just as awesome).
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Yeah, the Maeve stepping up to the Dame and pretty much banishing her with waves of awesome was definitely the pinnacle of the event. It was good to finally see a strong Maeve unleashing her power! (And yes, that gruesome, hideous Laeroc was badass!)
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
I think for me the problem with Maeve is that she represents the lie that lurks within Serenwilde's current identity. The taint isn't actually that bad for nature or the fae, and she is eternally living proof of the successful integration of soulless energies into all of nature.
If the taint isn't that bad for the fae (just a different flavour or fate), then what did the basin need to be healed from? Why did Serenwilde blame the cities for Cosmic Hope, if Glomdoring and her spirits turned out just fine (better than fine, actually)? We are only left with shallow, petty reasoning about how they don't look like us so therefore they must be bad, or because the great spirits hate each other now just because.
The Maeve is literally all the things that Serenwilde holds most in esteem (fae, great spirits, nature itself) telling them that their differences with Glomdoring are at a superficial, preference level. The wyrd is perfectly okay, we just don't like it. Sure, we have historical emnities that I'm sure will be difficult to get past, but if Glomdoring was a quiet, well-behaved commune, Serenwilde should be perfectly okay with their existence.
I'm actually more inclined these days to embrace that direction, rather than try and fight against it. It would be very cool for instance if Serenwilde decided to incorporate its own flavour of the Wyrd, and gave up the frankly losing argument that 'pure' nature exists any more, and that its worth protecting. Maybe it could be the wild, mystical version of the Wyrd, where Glomdoring's original is dark and frightening. And then Serenwilde at least has its own flavour to profligate through the basin (since ethereal forest is now a bit confusing to have as the Hartstone variant). And then we can forge a new future as the forest communes working together in the Wyrd, just slightly different interpretations of it.
Very interesting! But fundamentally wrong. The taint is corrosive and destructive, and every time Maeve has been introduced to its power, it has historically warped her and changed her. The same is not true of the wyrd, which cancels out your first paragraph.
There will also be no future iterations of the wyrd phenomenon. It is itself a strange and disparate aspect of what happened when Viravain and Isune merged, and the event is as peculiar as the notion that Serenwilde's nature needs anything to strengthen it. While the communes represent the balance between the natural world and the cities (and vis-a-vis the cities' fractured relationship to the natural world), Xenthos and Lerad articulated this argument the best by reminding us that the Maeve will live on without the communes (and, fundamentally, the world) -- but the communes (and again, the world) cannot live without the Maeve.
So while the Serenwilde fights to regain purity, which is loosely described as the Basin of Life before cities (and, in some cases, what the land looked like before the gods splintered), they're also doing their part to protect the Maeve Consciousness from serious threats. The wyrd is threatening, but it is not nearly as dangerous as the taint (hello! the tainted people are the ones who branded her in the first place!).
I would certainly hope Serenwilde doesn't decide to embrace anything new that might tip the scales, as entertaining as that may be. I get where you're coming from, though! Why can't Celest just let the Sea of Despair leak into the rest of the ocean? Why can't Gaudiguch just let Hallifax install air conditioners? Why can't I keep Drocilla out of my closet?
First, it's incredibly awesome that you are doing this Q&A!
Second, I don't think your first paragraph is correct:
Queen Maeve of the Fae says, "All within the forest are under my domain... I have not truly fought the taint, I have merely fought for the safety of my realm."
Queen Maeve of the Fae says, "The taint is just as much a part of me as the purity you see in the Serenwilde... now that the fae and Glomdoring spirits have awakened, they have reminded me that I reign over them all."
Laeroc, the Queen's Consort says, "The tainted fae are fae just as are the normal fae, they are all fae... you tired me with these questions."
However, I can understand that it may be preferable to pretend that stuff didn't happen, or isn't canon for one reason or another (maybe Maeve really was all crazy-pants in that moment).
Also, my suggestion for Serenwilde to embrace a new, wild vision of nature (rather than 'pure' nature free of unpleasant detritus) was a serious one, though I understand that probably won't happen.
Is there scope for Serenwilde (including the Great Spirits) to oppose Maeve, even though that consciousness is the greatest protector/critical to the survival of all nature? If we are stuck with 'purity' as our mantra, then surely the Maeve is inherently impure - even assuming we forget the history and pretend it is just Wyrd that is now a fundamental part of Nature's essence. I can't see any ideological problem from a Glomdoring perspective with Maeve - she has at least partially embraced the Wyrd after all - but it's not really possible to 'partially' embrace purity. By definition, the moment an impurity is incorporated and accepted, overall purity is lost.
I think for me the problem with Maeve is that she represents the lie that lurks within Serenwilde's current identity. The taint isn't actually that bad for nature or the fae, and she is eternally living proof of the successful integration of soulless energies into all of nature.
If the taint isn't that bad for the fae (just a different flavour or fate), then what did the basin need to be healed from? Why did Serenwilde blame the cities for Cosmic Hope, if Glomdoring and her spirits turned out just fine (better than fine, actually)? We are only left with shallow, petty reasoning about how they don't look like us so therefore they must be bad, or because the great spirits hate each other now just because.
The Maeve is literally all the things that Serenwilde holds most in esteem (fae, great spirits, nature itself) telling them that their differences with Glomdoring are at a superficial, preference level. The wyrd is perfectly okay, we just don't like it. Sure, we have historical emnities that I'm sure will be difficult to get past, but if Glomdoring was a quiet, well-behaved commune, Serenwilde should be perfectly okay with their existence.
I'm actually more inclined these days to embrace that direction, rather than try and fight against it. It would be very cool for instance if Serenwilde decided to incorporate its own flavour of the Wyrd, and gave up the frankly losing argument that 'pure' nature exists any more, and that its worth protecting. Maybe it could be the wild, mystical version of the Wyrd, where Glomdoring's original is dark and frightening. And then Serenwilde at least has its own flavour to profligate through the basin (since ethereal forest is now a bit confusing to have as the Hartstone variant). And then we can forge a new future as the forest communes working together in the Wyrd, just slightly different interpretations of it.
Very interesting! But fundamentally wrong. The taint is corrosive and destructive, and every time Maeve has been introduced to its power, it has historically warped her and changed her. The same is not true of the wyrd, which cancels out your first paragraph.
There will also be no future iterations of the wyrd phenomenon. It is itself a strange and disparate aspect of what happened when Viravain and Isune merged, and the event is as peculiar as the notion that Serenwilde's nature needs anything to strengthen it. While the communes represent the balance between the natural world and the cities (and vis-a-vis the cities' fractured relationship to the natural world), Xenthos and Lerad articulated this argument the best by reminding us that the Maeve will live on without the communes (and, fundamentally, the world) -- but the communes (and again, the world) cannot live without the Maeve.
So while the Serenwilde fights to regain purity, which is loosely described as the Basin of Life before cities (and, in some cases, what the land looked like before the gods splintered), they're also doing their part to protect the Maeve Consciousness from serious threats. The wyrd is threatening, but it is not nearly as dangerous as the taint (hello! the tainted people are the ones who branded her in the first place!).
I would certainly hope Serenwilde doesn't decide to embrace anything new that might tip the scales, as entertaining as that may be. I get where you're coming from, though! Why can't Celest just let the Sea of Despair leak into the rest of the ocean? Why can't Gaudiguch just let Hallifax install air conditioners? Why can't I keep Drocilla out of my closet?
First, it's incredibly awesome that you are doing this Q&A!
Second, I don't think your first paragraph is correct:
Queen Maeve of the Fae says, "All within the forest are under my domain... I have not truly fought the taint, I have merely fought for the safety of my realm."
Queen Maeve of the Fae says, "The taint is just as much a part of me as the purity you see in the Serenwilde... now that the fae and Glomdoring spirits have awakened, they have reminded me that I reign over them all."
Laeroc, the Queen's Consort says, "The tainted fae are fae just as are the normal fae, they are all fae... you tired me with these questions."
However, I can understand that it may be preferable to pretend that stuff didn't happen, or isn't canon for one reason or another (maybe Maeve really was all crazy-pants in that moment).
Also, my suggestion for Serenwilde to embrace a new, wild vision of nature (rather than 'pure' nature free of unpleasant detritus) was a serious one, though I understand that probably won't happen.
Is there scope for Serenwilde (including the Great Spirits) to oppose Maeve, even though that consciousness is the greatest protector/critical to the survival of all nature? If we are stuck with 'purity' as our mantra, then surely the Maeve is inherently impure - even assuming we forget the history and pretend it is just Wyrd that is now a fundamental part of Nature's essence. I can't see any ideological problem from a Glomdoring perspective with Maeve - she has at least partially embraced the Wyrd after all - but it's not really possible to 'partially' embrace purity. By definition, the moment an impurity is incorporated and accepted, overall purity is lost.
I actually rushed to do some digging because I got all huffy that someone was using Maeve to use taint and wyrd interchangeably! We only found it by Googling and finding a post you made in 2005! It predates the logs our mobs now have for their speech! I was still in high school! Lusternia isn't that static. I think what Lisaera said above is definitely more representative of how the taint and Maeve are presented now.
@Nocht - I'm more than happy to pretend that whole sorry saga didn't happen. It was definitely my worst time in Lusternia, though probably partly my fault for being a tad too heavily invested anyway. Changing to an untainted Glomdoring with its own unique Wyrd was a brilliant move, and I hope a similar magic in reworking Serenwilde's identity can be performed as well - whichever path the pantheon decide to take.
I guess a lot of my concerns about Serenwilde's lack of identity actually come from that time anyway - I didn't realise I'd already made most of these suggestions before. I decided to google too and found myself almost saying the exact same things here, which means I haven't really changed perspectives much in the last decade! That's probably entirely unhelpful to the current situation, since no doubt the RP landscape has moved on significantly and I'm probably not being fair in considering the latest developments by players and admin. Given nothing came of those previous suggestions, I guess I'll try and butt out!
Was this a sudden change of heart? What was the thought process behind removing the brand?
What's to stop Magnagora from delving into a big project where they brand Maeve and bring back the Dame?
1.) To my knowledge, there was always the possibility of the brand being removed. In fact, there were several attempts on behalf of the admin to determine how exactly we would do that, but nothing happened until this latest event.
2.) Nothing. There is nothing to stop Magnagora from doing this.
We were directly admin told 'no this is not happening' when we looked into it previously (Magnagora and Glomdoring this was). If that was because there were plans (tm) or it was actually a 'not yet' that's possible, but don't make it out like it was always happening when we were given a big fat NOPE.
Still reading the thread to catch up, but remember that I told you (and other people who had this result) that in terms of RP, a "No" just means "No right now." There's a reason I kept pushing for it, asking about it, etc. The exact same thing was told to Celest in regards to removing the bracelet, and once there was enough interest in pursuing it as an event (and an understanding that there was a player-appetite for that kind of RP avenue), something happened.
If you really like the idea of something, you should always try to RP for it! You never know, Someone might like it and run with it. RP > NoRP.
Wait, sorry -- isn't Maeve a smob that can be killed after arduous amounts of questing to bring the Elemental planes to supremacy?
Note: Still catching up, got to this question. No to both. She is not an smob, and killing her does not require an arduous amount of questing. You can take a relatively small group up and murder her right now (unless they buffed her since the last time this happened at least). Doing so will allow you to meld Faethorn as a Mage.
@Nocht - I'm more than happy to pretend that whole sorry saga didn't happen. It was definitely my worst time in Lusternia, though probably partly my fault for being a tad too heavily invested anyway. Changing to an untainted Glomdoring with its own unique Wyrd was a brilliant move, and I hope a similar magic in reworking Serenwilde's identity can be performed as well - whichever path the pantheon decide to take.
I guess a lot of my concerns about Serenwilde's lack of identity actually come from that time anyway - I didn't realise I'd already made most of these suggestions before. I decided to google too and found myself almost saying the exact same things here, which means I haven't really changed perspectives much in the last decade! That's probably entirely unhelpful to the current situation, since no doubt the RP landscape has moved on significantly and I'm probably not being fair in considering the latest developments by players and admin. Given nothing came of those previous suggestions, I guess I'll try and butt out!
X_X
RP-wise, that did actually happen-- but the response to that is that Viravain/Isune sucked up all the taint from Glomdoring and remade it into the Wyrd instead. So even accepting that statement of hers being accurate at the time, it no longer is (all the taint went away and was replaced by Wyrd).
Of course, you still have the gray area as to whether or not you consider the Wyrd to be Taint. If you do, then there's no change. But that one's intended to be an open question and drive player interactions.
Well, when the world serpent sucked the taint out of the earth and the geomancers turned into hippies Crow also reverted to his original form as Raven. From memory that happened after the Wyrd was created, so at the very least, removing the taint would restore the spirits. (I can't remember if anything happened to the forest during that time but Raven and Hart had a visible meeting)
I think that kinda pushes the differentiation between the Wyrd and the taint into semantics from a Seren point of view
And you're welcome to consider it semantics... from a Seren point of view. Obviously, we think otherwise. And the Administration have worked pretty hard to leave it in a gray area as far as it goes on an OOC level.
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Which is apparently still the case, and does I guess beg the question of whether or not maybe that's a limitation that's resulting in the sameness. If Maeve (or a series of them) encompassed all of nature rather than just the forests then things might be significantly different. (if it were in the original doc then the communes could have been completely different aspects of nature)
Perhaps connecting all of nature into Maeve (or another collective) could be a goal for the Wilde, where the wyrd seeks to absorb and convert everything into its shape, Serenwilde seeks only connection, bonding with the many varied shapes that nature has and sharing with them the power to defend themselves.
My view has been (based on what I've read plus what people have told me) that the forests and the forest fae are one. And in turn, attacking the physical forest results in the death of those fae.
Further, because the Maeve is the collective spirit of all forest Fae, their deaths weaken her because there is less collective strength for her to draw on.
This isn't noticeable in the short-term, fae die and are born all the time, just like the death of an individual deer doesn't really weaken the White Hart, but if all deer died then I would expect that the White Harts existence might be threatened, and if a significant portion of them died all at once then he would be weakened at least.
Translating to the forest, destroying/disconnecting a forest from the Maeve doesn't just remove them from her, it removes the power they were sharing with her.
If only one forest were connected to the Maeve, it seems likely that she might not serve much of a purpose because she can only bolster the forest using their own power.
One line of reasoning that might support this is what's happened to nature over the years. We have a defensive protection that helped fight off the soulless and seems to have successfully ensured that the forests remained relatively unscathed through the Elder and Vernal wars.
At some point Jojobo appears to have distanced/disconnected from Faethorn, I'm not sure if this was after Sun was corrupted or if that came later. But this could mean the strength of the Maeve was reduced by a quarter.
We later have the Nature Wars which are perhaps notable here because the weapon used to harm Serenwilde was elemental fire, which is connected to nature and likely a weapon the Soulless would not be able to use as easily.
Then during the taint wars, we have Earth spewing forth the taint which seems likely to be impacting Faethorn through their connection but my impression is that at that point Gloriana was still fine, likely protected by Maeve. Though a possible important connection is again that the taint at this point is linked to an Elemental energy.
Then Hallifax uses their magic to blow the taint spreading northward towards Gloriana, which concentrated the taint and helped it to breach the forests defences. Shortly after Faethorn was probably sent into disarray as two of the Elements were ripped out of time and disconnected from the court. (Perhaps somewhat similar to what happened when they returned, perhaps the reverse?)
Then Ackleberry does whatever it did, possibly reducing her strength to half of what it originally was because she now only has two forests to draw strength from. Again, this might be reflected in the severed physical connection to faethorn.
To me, it makes sense that Maeve is weakened, that she is less able to shield herself and in turn the forests because she just doesn't have the power available to her any more.
In turn, this reflects why the forests might not feel as much like the protected lands they might have been when the Maeve was at the height of her power. Why Maeve can't reject the Wyrd (it currently composes half of her). And offers both forests a path forward in trying to sway her to their side by increasing their contribution to her collective strength.
The wyrd spreading means more fae subject to the wyrd and in turn subject to Maeve, similarly Serenwilde spreading its borders or bringing more types of fae under its shelter also offers more strength to the Maeve.
hum, I kinda just kept rambling I'll probably stop for now.
I disagree to an extent.
Maeve really wouldn't be anything without all of the Fae that are part of her. If there aren't any Fae then it makes no sense that she could continue to exist and afaik we are aware that she changes based on significant changes to the forests.
Yes, because she's bound to all the forests, her death means our death. But the reverse seems very likely to be true as well, just seems easier to attack Maeve.
@Saran's explanation of the losses of the different forests,weakening the Maeve, actually makes sense to me in explaining why the Maeve currently needs both the Serenwilde and the Glomdoring--she needs every bit of strength she can get, even if she has to get some from the wyrden woods.
They are an inseparable part of the forests, Maeve was made by taking them and combining them with Lesser Fae from other forests, but they're still there still part of us. Maybe in times of need they're redistributed where they might be needed more, but ultimately things mostly stay the same.
The Tah'vrai is admittedly weird, but I think I interpret it more as the transfer of fae strength between forests and that the bulk of the fae mostly stay within their own lands until called elsewhere, I suppose an example might be the Naiad of Moon Lake, she is a lesser fae and so would have been bound to the Maeve but I also can't imagine her fulfilling a Tah'vrai to Glomdoring any time soon, but maybe she would have served previously when the need was dire.
And so it's kinda a chain, injuring the forest injures the fae that are connected to it, which means in turn injuring the Maeve. It's also part of why the cities are so disgusting, because Celest didn't just rebuild, it destroyed the natural ecosystem on the land they now stand and in doing so killed the fae that were part of that place. But if we could tear down some place that has received such treatment, rejuvenate the land and bring back the natural cycles that were there, then in turn new fae might be born. More esoteric fae are more difficult obviously, but would come in time. (It's easy to grow a bluebell, foxglove, or snoefaasia but it's a bit more difficult to provide the circumstances through which a leprechaun might be reborn but in time it will likely happen naturally.)
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
have not truly fought the taint, I have merely fought for the safety of my
realm."
purity you see in the Serenwilde... now that the fae and Glomdoring spirits
have awakened, they have reminded me that I reign over them all."
normal fae, they are all fae... you tired me with these questions."
If you really like the idea of something, you should always try to RP for it! You never know, Someone might like it and run with it.
Warning: Serenwilde might object.
Of course, you still have the gray area as to whether or not you consider the Wyrd to be Taint. If you do, then there's no change. But that one's intended to be an open question and drive player interactions.
I think that kinda pushes the differentiation between the Wyrd and the taint into semantics from a Seren point of view