Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
I'm really just not understanding why people don't just envoy bonds stopping magical transport into the room as well as out.
That's exactly how it used to work, actually. I believe distort used to work this way too, and it was changed with distort since it works off of the same code - can't quite remember. Clearbonds also used to not be a thing. Both changes have really eroded the skill's second edge, and I recall feeling kind of baffled as to why it wasn't receiving more attention at the time.
The report was mentioned because it had some good discussion going there about why it's an issue. Glomdoring can place down bonds and rad people into their room, but a radder on Serenwilde's side cannot rad you out of your room if you have bonds up. This means it's easier to pick people off in a stand-off for you, which then makes it easier for you to rush. And you don't risk anything with this setup. Kelly running in to tackle people out means Kelly walks alone into a room full of people and has to tackle against summon resistance and any other room effects set up for her. That's hardly an equal counter.
And I know how bonds works, Nienla. I'm not asking you to sell me some juicy trade secrets (lol). I am trying to get a better understanding of what your argument is.
I went to bed after my last comment, but you seemed to have missed the point where I said anything that bonds stops, you have the ability to stop as well, leading to the exact same situation on your side. It's really tough to have 'cheerful constructive' discussion when fundamental points are ignored. Bonds allows you to hang out without some of those other steps (like shielding/monoliths) where you need them otherwise.
Additionally the 'you don't risk anything' is patently false. It's been shown why it's patently false. See above about constructive discussion.
Lerad brought up the biggest strength of bonds (which has nothing, and never has had anything to do with turtling) and that's the rescue factor.
@Demartel - I can tell you from my personal experiences fighting in Faethorn that the South is much much more willing to jump into your prepped meld or Etherwilde than the North is. We've had 4 gaudi's or so on Faethorn (no meld) and still won't be rushed. Lothringen and me were there the other day with just 2 of us against 4-5 and still weren't rushed. The only times I've seen the North rush/jump into Etherglom is when they have 2:1 numbers and we either rushed into the meld first and got rekt, so they are cleaning us up OR I just talk mad trash over a thoughtstealer and you finally rush. If you don't have the numbers, you sit and turtle, pretty much everytime.
This is all first hand experience, I'm sure there are times when South turtles and sits tight, but in general, it's us being the aggressors while you're sitting pretty in your meld.
I mean, I feel like I'm repeating myself here now. You quoted something I said, said I was ignoring fundamental arguments, and then flabbergastingly ignored the point I made in the exact same quote that is completely contrary to what you're asserting. Amazing. No, this is why we can't have constructive arguments.
And no, I don't see any 'risk' yet. Saying "Oh, but you can rush the room" is NOT a risk to bonds. The whole point of you dropping bonds and radding people from there is because neither side wanted to rush until they had a clear advantage, and Glomdoring always has the opening to make that advantage happen without needing to risk engaging. Saying we have "the same ability [to stop rad]" is lying. Stopping rad on our ends means we remain shielded and do nothing. You can remain unshielded and continue to spam rad to try to get people into your group, and unless we stand and look at each other forever, the ultimate outcome is that you succeed in picking our people off, or we just decide to take the risky route and charge anyway. No other organization in the game has this advantage during standoffs. It's not rocket science I'm explaining here.
Somehow though, we're arguing past each other, and then somehow red herrings flying about how 'the north only ever turles up'. Or 'the north only does this and that when they have numbers'. Okay fine, whatever. The south is made of caped super heroes who always fight against superior numbers and wins and never turtles up. I don't particularly care about that part of the argument. It has nothing to do with me or what I'm saying.
But in any case, this whole argument is fruitless anyway. I'm not a shadowdancer or druid envoy so my opinion here counts for less than the usual nothing, and convincing you that you're downplaying a big advantage you actually have is never going to happen. So consider me done with this discussion.
What. If you think I'm gusting you across an entire area, you really should check your logs. That's pretty futile. I just gust once to get things rolling (or bouncing / hopping / skipping, as the case may be). Tracking is fun, and definitely powerful in a group fight.
Yes, you're ignoring the fact that anything bonds does, YOU CAN DO TOO! That's the fundamental disconnect going on here, one that you haven't addressed.
Anyone can shield and drop a monolith and rad people into their room, but a radder on the South's side cannot rad you out of your room if you have shield up. This means it's easier to pick people off in a stand-off for you, which then makes it easier for you to rush. This means it's easier to pick people off in a stand-off for you, which then makes it easier for you to rush. And you don't risk anything with this setup. Synkarin running in to scissorflip or gust people out means Synkarin walks alone into a room full of people and has to gust/scissorflip against summon resistance and any other room effects set up for him. That's hardly an equal counter.
I just edited your quote about how strong bonds to emphasize that you missed my point. This is what you can do to achieve the exact same scenario you described. I've ignored nothing you said (how you can say I ignored it, I don't even know, but you clearly ignored my own comments because the only argument against it was 'that's hardly an equal counter' with no actual argument as to why it's not equal). It's not an equal counter no, because you don't have to maintain shield or mono with bonds up (Something I've already pointed out). No one said it was equal, it was just said that you can achieve the exact same scenario you've described without bonds. Why is it so unfair to have bonds when you can achieve the same scenario with shield/mono? This is what I don't understand. You can give yourself a situation that replicates bonds in a room without the negative effects but yet, bonds is so OP it wins fights on it's own?
If you guys are the ones sitting there doing nothing, then that's your deal. Having a shield doesn't prevent you from doing something and then re-shielding. I don't know what to tell you there.
If you're going to ignore the risk of bonds (preventing rescue, giving the enemy group the same advantage you were enjoying if you get pushed off etc).... I dont even know what to say.
My spin off was specifically addressed to Demartel about my experiences, it has nothing to do with bonds. I even made a point to say 'hey @Demartel' to make it clear it was a separate comment.
Combat comes down mostly to who stuffs up, not who does exceptionally well. It's people getting caught out which wins most fights. Bonds eliminates that risk.
Edit: Bonds has been here for years though, which means that it's not a problem. So don't worry about the skill, yes, it's frustrating, but you have to deal with it. That's all.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
As far as being pulled out of the room it does, yes. Being pushed out is a matter of the people inside bonds being attentive or having a tracking warrior/anyone with coal trowel.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Also, in regards to the whole turtling thing: @Demartel , you should know that if you're a tracker and you actually want to be useful in a group fight, you literally cannot turtle. You have to run around prepping and doing things. Tracking is mostly useless if all you do is huddle in one room and wait. Sure, you've got pits in that one room, but that's a one-off. Tracking adds a great deal of possibly strategy to the mix, but also means you have to risk yourself. I actually got caught out in EthSeren last night while working on things and got picked off-- just didn't gain the north anything since I also had an ur'Stone planted (instant resurrection) and was back in EthSeren quickly enough that Rivius only managed to pull up one pit.
EthSeren is also the raiding tracker's dream. The design is so, so lovely-- three rooms between the best spot to prep and the Nexus itself. If you're defending it, and you give the raiders time to prep it up, you better move through the trees. The ground is enemy territory.
I love it.
PS: You guys can thank Kelly for me being a tracker. Other North trackers we faced prior (and aside from) her just haven't really been a consistent threat-- she's the one on your side who actually makes Tracking dangerous (others tend to be a room-and-done, which can be annoying, but not really threatening). I had to pick it up because she was wrecking our groups with actual use of the skillset, and we needed a counter. I've fallen in love with its power and the strategy / thinking needed to use it well.
As far as being pulled out of the room it does, yes. Being pushed out is a matter of the people inside bonds being attentive or having a tracking warrior/anyone with coal trowel.
It doesn't eliminate being pulled out of a room, it lowers the risk, but doesn't eliminate it.
I can't think of any way to pull someone out the room in bonds. The only move I can think of which might do it is the ninjakari chaingrab but you won't fight anyone with that any time soon.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
@Maligorn: There are counters. I've listed a few of them, but not all. Gave a hint for a pretty big one. But yes, thank you for the reminder as to why few of us bother with you, let alone take you seriously.
Bonds has existed for ages. It only suddenly became a problem once I came around and started having our Night users utilize it again in group skirmishes specifically because Seren was turtling to an extreme degree and Bonds CAN provide an answer to that. @Synkarin is correct in that unless the North has a 2:1 advantage or we're taking advantage of someone's thoughtstealer to provoke/goad, the North will not rush and very seldom raids unless they farscout and see that hardly anyone is around. The minute people do start showing up, they bail. Would know. I've taken to specifically hiding on aetherbubbles to counter that behavior in the past to test this theory and it turned out to be true with certain individuals.
This is really only a case of 'which skill in Night do we want to use a scapegoat'. In reality though, Bonds has legitimate counterplay in the various forms of physical movement skills that exist across the game. The problem that the North has is that most of those physical movement skills require some semblance of risk or set up to use, which runs contrary to their typical playing style of having us come to you. No one was stating one side turtles and the other doesn't, but I was stating that nine times out of ten, a Faethorn fight is devolving between the North tucked away in some unbreakable meld room even when they hold a numerical advantage over us and it would be FAR more beneficial to rush us before we get set up. Then, it's typically the South wanting a fight and taking steps to start breaking the meld.
Kelly has proven time and time again that it is far more beneficial for the North to be aggressive, especially when they have a numbers advantage. And you know what happens when the North actually gets aggressive? They manage to win fights and prevent us from running away in our own Bonds. You don't SEE it happening because it's a matter of perspective, but there are many times where I have been ganked and unable to get away because of my own Bonds. That's the dual-edged aspect of the ability, like most other things in Night that people love to complain about: Longnight and Brumetower.
Synkarin is also right in that Bonds just minimizes risk for us, it doesn't eliminate it. We're taking a risk by pre-emptively having Bonds up because, again, it can be used against us if the North got aggressive.
Beckon doesn't work. Edit: I was a Celestine and tried it on several occasions, targed and untargetted.
That is not because of bonds; that is because we are smart enough to block the exit most of the time. I have been beckoned out of a Bonds'd room before when I was the only blocker. Beckon's counter is block, not bonds/shield.
'Various physical movement skills' require you to be inside the room, which negates why bonds is strong. The only physical adjacement movement skill which works, to my knowledge, is chaingrab, which you never fight. Sending one person in to scissor is a folly due to the fact that pits exist and everyone and their grandmother can have a trowel now. Even then, there's summon resist on top of that and the fact that bonds and walls are not mutually exclusive.
Edit: Well. I mean, everyone has to scissor now and again, thing is that bonds forces you to do it without choice. Either scissor or move in, there's nothing else you can do.
Edit*2: I tried it exclusively and it worked even without a blocker, it also gives the message. Maybe I'm misremembering.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
You do realize that Sidd uses scissor all the time on enemy groups, despite pits, right? We use gust, we use squall, we use other abilities to maximize their chance of success (and I think you missed my reply re: beckon up above your post). You're basically just confirming their statement that you don't like to take actions with risk in order to give your team a greater chance of success. Group combat in Lusternia is set up so that risk can provide great reward, but it's a gamble. And it's fun! Certainly more fun than just standing there staring and doing nothing.
Right, but you have the opportunity to pick people off before doing so because we can't put up bonds. It's possible I'm misremembering but I'm going through my logs now to find it, and it's still sitting as classified in my buglist, so maybe it was just an issue at the time. Feel free to ignore me though.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Right, but you have the opportunity to pick people off before doing so because we can't put up bonds. It's possible I'm misremembering but I'm going through my logs now to find it, and it's still sitting as classified in my buglist, so maybe it was just an issue at the time. Feel free to ignore me though.
Your side pretty much always puts up shield, so there's no real way to "pick people off" (unless those people are doing something). Want another thing to do? If someone does something that drops shield, sprinkle a new salt shield around them. There's no real reason to be sitting there without a shield. Ever. Team effort pays off!
So yes, bonds is a perfect defence against being pulled out.
Edit: Except maybe chaingrab, woo!
Or tackle, or Igasho carry, or scissorkick, or springtraps, or, you know, anything that involves a little risk. C'mon. It can't be a perfect defense if it doesn't stop everything. Please stop the grandstanding.
Springtraps require us being there first, and you would trip the trap before bondsing. Springtraps also have a %chance to fail. But that being said every kind of movement does. Except Igasho Carry. But again, all these require one person moving into the room, which is probably melded and trapped, and in which case we lose a person.
Sure, but you can't deny the fact that it's extremely annoying and frustrating to deal with. It means that the onus is on the other team to engage, otherwise you get to punish them for screwing up with 0 fear of being exploited for it.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Springtraps require us being there first, and you would trip the trap before bondsing. Springtraps also have a %chance to fail. But that being said every kind of movement does. Except Igasho Carry.
I've actually walked into the room you guys are in, put in spring traps at the exits, and then gotten out. Chasing (or leaving) means that you visit our group. Risky, sure. But it can pay off, and when it does it's glorious!
Springtraps require us being there first, and you would trip the trap before bondsing. Springtraps also have a %chance to fail. But that being said every kind of movement does. Except Igasho Carry.
And yet it still works and, let's be honest, setting up springtraps has worked famously for people in the past.
Again, this just boils down to: 'we don't want to take risk at all. We want to be able to safely use magical forms of movement from our kill room.' Learn to take some risk or pre-emptively do some set up like we do.
Edit: Also, skills being frustrating or annoying doesn't mean that it's imbalanced. It just means that it's competitive and good at what it does. If it wasn't annoying you or frustrating you to some degree, it probably wouldn't be an ability worth using.
Comments
I went to bed after my last comment, but you seemed to have missed the point where I said anything that bonds stops, you have the ability to stop as well, leading to the exact same situation on your side. It's really tough to have 'cheerful constructive' discussion when fundamental points are ignored. Bonds allows you to hang out without some of those other steps (like shielding/monoliths) where you need them otherwise.
Additionally the 'you don't risk anything' is patently false. It's been shown why it's patently false. See above about constructive discussion.
Edit: Bonds has been here for years though, which means that it's not a problem. So don't worry about the skill, yes, it's frustrating, but you have to deal with it. That's all.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
EthSeren is also the raiding tracker's dream. The design is so, so lovely-- three rooms between the best spot to prep and the Nexus itself. If you're defending it, and you give the raiders time to prep it up, you better move through the trees. The ground is enemy territory.
I love it.
PS: You guys can thank Kelly for me being a tracker. Other North trackers we faced prior (and aside from) her just haven't really been a consistent threat-- she's the one on your side who actually makes Tracking dangerous (others tend to be a room-and-done, which can be annoying, but not really threatening). I had to pick it up because she was wrecking our groups with actual use of the skillset, and we needed a counter. I've fallen in love with its power and the strategy / thinking needed to use it well.
It doesn't eliminate being pulled out of a room, it lowers the risk, but doesn't eliminate it.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Edit: I was a Celestine and tried it on several occasions, targed and untargetted.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Bonds has existed for ages. It only suddenly became a problem once I came around and started having our Night users utilize it again in group skirmishes specifically because Seren was turtling to an extreme degree and Bonds CAN provide an answer to that. @Synkarin is correct in that unless the North has a 2:1 advantage or we're taking advantage of someone's thoughtstealer to provoke/goad, the North will not rush and very seldom raids unless they farscout and see that hardly anyone is around. The minute people do start showing up, they bail. Would know. I've taken to specifically hiding on aetherbubbles to counter that behavior in the past to test this theory and it turned out to be true with certain individuals.
This is really only a case of 'which skill in Night do we want to use a scapegoat'. In reality though, Bonds has legitimate counterplay in the various forms of physical movement skills that exist across the game. The problem that the North has is that most of those physical movement skills require some semblance of risk or set up to use, which runs contrary to their typical playing style of having us come to you. No one was stating one side turtles and the other doesn't, but I was stating that nine times out of ten, a Faethorn fight is devolving between the North tucked away in some unbreakable meld room even when they hold a numerical advantage over us and it would be FAR more beneficial to rush us before we get set up. Then, it's typically the South wanting a fight and taking steps to start breaking the meld.
Kelly has proven time and time again that it is far more beneficial for the North to be aggressive, especially when they have a numbers advantage. And you know what happens when the North actually gets aggressive? They manage to win fights and prevent us from running away in our own Bonds. You don't SEE it happening because it's a matter of perspective, but there are many times where I have been ganked and unable to get away because of my own Bonds. That's the dual-edged aspect of the ability, like most other things in Night that people love to complain about: Longnight and Brumetower.
Synkarin is also right in that Bonds just minimizes risk for us, it doesn't eliminate it. We're taking a risk by pre-emptively having Bonds up because, again, it can be used against us if the North got aggressive.
That is not because of bonds; that is because we are smart enough to block the exit most of the time. I have been beckoned out of a Bonds'd room before when I was the only blocker. Beckon's counter is block, not bonds/shield.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Again, this just boils down to: 'we don't want to take risk at all. We want to be able to safely use magical forms of movement from our kill room.' Learn to take some risk or pre-emptively do some set up like we do.
Edit: Also, skills being frustrating or annoying doesn't mean that it's imbalanced. It just means that it's competitive and good at what it does. If it wasn't annoying you or frustrating you to some degree, it probably wouldn't be an ability worth using.